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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Storm and Ice Elementals
Thread: Storm and Ice Elementals This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 18, 2020 12:50 PM

Poll Question:
Storm and Ice Elementals

It is claimed Storm and Ice Elementals have "no melee penalty", while in fact this ability does'nt work for either of them.
This means that Storm and Ice Elementals kinda lose an ability, as they do full melee damage as Air and Water Elementals, but not as Storm and Ice Elementals.
Do you think they should actually have no melee penalty?

Responses:
Yes, they should have no melee penalty.
No, they should not have no melee penalty.
I don't know/care.
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BTB
BTB


Known Hero
posted May 18, 2020 01:44 PM

The key aspect to look at here is that both unupgraded forms are not ranged units, so you need to ask yourself if you're happy having an upgrade that gains a weakness.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 18, 2020 01:48 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 13:49, 18 May 2020.

That is the question, is it okay that an upgrade get a downgrade…
Or more like a trade actually, get ranged, but lose no melee penalty.
The same is actually true for Master Gremlins, but not Titans.

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evildustructor
evildustructor


Hired Hero
posted May 18, 2020 01:48 PM

Why? storm ellies are argueably the strongest tier 2 unit already, no melee penalty would make them godlike no question haha

fish ellies are pretty trash tho, wouldnt mind seeing them getting a small buff but really theres probably no unit getting buffed except in stuff like cost/building cost to stay true to the original game changing the melee penalty still would make ice ellies pretty bad imo

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 18, 2020 01:53 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 13:54, 18 May 2020.

Everyone is saying Storm Elementals are awesome, but I'm not really seeing it. They get double damage from Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning and Armageddon and can't be resurrected.
If you can keep them alive and maybe cast Bless on them, then they are pretty awesome and then keep them away from melee too.

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evildustructor
evildustructor


Hired Hero
posted May 18, 2020 02:17 PM
Edited by evildustructor at 14:19, 18 May 2020.

they have the stats of a tier 4 unit, just look at the numbers being ranged is great, having the lightning bolt vulnerability doesnt matter when random monster encounters cant cast lightning bolt, its like how vamp lords are broken in PvE but in PvP battles they generally die pretty quickly but a lighter version, you can farm loads of stuff with storm ellies and their mega dmg and speed. if they had no melee penalty theyd be completely broken, think of the melee kiting/ability to take hives in creature bank maps etc

ressurect ability and stuff like that doesnt matter as they are an early game unit where ress is pretty uncommon, and i mean, youd never brawl with them and make them die anyway - they would just kite stuff and be protected by all the other meat. and with bless theyre just insanely good


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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted May 18, 2020 03:35 PM

From balance point of view, Storm elementals especially are so stacked with abilities that they're definetly not needing yet another good thing going for them.

On the other hand, it makes me think if they were actually supposed to have the skill in the first place. SoD desciption claims that they actually have no melee penalty. It's hard to tell if they were supposed to have them, but forgot to code it, or was this simply mistake in the description alone.

Speaking of elementals, I never understood that why air/storm and Earth/Magma elementals take EXTRA damage from their "own" elemental spells.

Fire/energy and Water/Ice are very consistant in this case, they're strong and weak for opposing elementals and the opposing magic school.

Air and Earth elementals on the other hand are strong/weak towards each other, but the spells doesn't make sense to me. IMO it would make more sense if Air elementals took extra damage from Meteor Shower and Implosion, while Earth elementals would be weak to both Lighting bolt and Chaing lightining.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 18, 2020 03:45 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 15:49, 18 May 2020.

Hourglass said:

Speaking of elementals, I never understood that why air/storm and Earth/Magma elementals take EXTRA damage from their "own" elemental spells.

Yeah this does'nt make much sense either, but I guess it was done from a balance perspective?
The elemental weaknesses and no resurrection, makes elementals not that good imo.
If you can get Pendant of Negativity you can make Storm Elementals last a bit longer, Resistance and resistance artifacts might also be worth considering as Conflux.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted May 18, 2020 04:45 PM
Edited by Hourglass at 16:54, 18 May 2020.

phoenix4ever said:

Yeah this does'nt make much sense either, but I guess it was done from a balance perspective?


Might be, but at the same time, those weaknessess have been around since ROE, where the elementals were not part of any town, and thus they didn't affect on the balance between towns. Strange thing indeed.

phoenix4ever said:

The elemental weaknesses and no resurrection, makes elementals not that good imo.
If you can get Pendant of Negativity you can make Storm Elementals last a bit longer, Resistance and resistance artifacts might also be worth considering as Conflux.


Well, elementals are quite consisntant, as they cannot be blinded and morale doesn't affect them. The elemental weaknesess usually don't play a role, only notable one is the Storm elemental's Lightning bolt vulnerability. And even that is not as bad as it looks, as Storm elementals are extremely tanky considered that they're only a tier 2 unit. For example, Wolf raiders who are among the best tier 2 creatures take more casualites from lightning bolt than Storm elementals.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 18, 2020 04:56 PM

Yeah but you can resurrect Wolf Raiders, you can't resurrect Storm Elementals. (Not even with Orb of Vulnerability.)
Conflux is such a weird town, very strong in some aspects, very weak in others.

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Baronus
Baronus


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 18, 2020 05:55 PM

Storm and ice elemental was not planned but as you know forge was failed and NWC must give something as substitute.
So fast work and little not finished city.
Storm elementals should fly not shoot! Logical! Non flying air elemental :0)))
Rather fire element is candidate to shoot as in HIV.
No melee penalty is logical if based unit is only melee eg. gremlin, titan because based has n.m.p. upgraded no... Upg. is worst than base.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 18, 2020 06:29 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 18:30, 18 May 2020.

Baronus said:

Storm elementals should fly not shoot! Logical! Non flying air elemental :0)))
Rather fire element is candidate to shoot as in HIV.


Good point Baronus.
It's very weird Air/Storm Elementals can't fly and yeah Energy Elementals could also have been interesting as ranged units.

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avatar
avatar


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 18, 2020 07:01 PM
Edited by avatar at 19:02, 18 May 2020.

Baronus said:
Storm and ice elemental was not planned but as you know forge was failed and NWC must give something as substitute.
So fast work and little not finished city.


Partially true. They had enough time to make changes with next patches, even with SoD. But they had no interest with it.
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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
posted May 18, 2020 07:03 PM

COnflux is very wierd town indeed. Earth/Magma and Air/Storm should have swapped immunities and weakness, logical is Water/Ice wont be affected by Ice Bolt/Frost Ring, Physic Elemental immune to Mind Spells(which is also valid for other elemental types). Also Energy Elementals should be immune to Lighting Spells.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted May 18, 2020 07:04 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 19:06, 18 May 2020.

Hourglass said:

Speaking of elementals, I never understood that why air/storm and Earth/Magma elementals take EXTRA damage from their "own" elemental spells.

Because meteors hitting the ground causes craters?
phoenix4ever said:
The elemental weaknesses and no resurrection, makes elementals not that good imo.

That's why you almost never see a custom SP map where you start as Conflux. While completely overpowered in PvP, the lack of resurrection makes them only viable for quite even battles.
This is the reason I never understood why HotA created the Ring of Oblivion. It would be ok, I guess, if like the Horn or the Armageddon's Blade it was only possible to find it on map if the mapmaker deliberately put it there.

About unupgraded unit not being a shooter so having no melee penalty and upgraded being a shooter having it, they are not alone. Gremlins are like that since RoE, didn't you noticed?
Now, the tip being wrong, that makes me think it is a bug or a quite late change of plans.
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 18, 2020 07:12 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 19:13, 18 May 2020.

Bloodsucker yes I noticed, I posted this as my second post:
"That is the question, is it okay that an upgrade get a downgrade...
Or more like a trade actually, get ranged, but lose no melee penalty.
The same is actually true for Master Gremlins, but not Titans."

I actually like Ring of Oblivion, it limits use of Resurrection/Animate Dead and Vampire Lords drain, demon summoning, Angel resurrection, Phoenix resurrection and other powerful stuff. Besides it's a major artifact, which there are already a ton of, so pretty hard to get your hands on it. I have more of a problem with Orb of Vulnerability, which has different rules depending on who is wearing it. (WTF)


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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted May 18, 2020 07:25 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 19:34, 18 May 2020.

phoenix4ever said:
Bloodsucker yes I noticed, I posted this as my second post:
"That is the question, is it okay that an upgrade get a downgrade...
Or more like a trade actually, get ranged, but lose no melee penalty.
The same is actually true for Master Gremlins, but not Titans."

I guess I took too much time with the editor opened, sorry for that.

phoenix4ever said:
I actually like Ring of Oblivion, it limits use of Resurrection/Animate Dead and Vampire Lords drain, demon summoning, Angel resurrection, Phoenix resurrection and other powerful stuff.

That's because you only play an even map... Try to win against an AI hero with twice your prims, three or four times more army and natural fighting skills while your hero is strongly reliant on magic, if he has that.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Making map for HotA then WoG
posted May 18, 2020 08:01 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 20:01, 18 May 2020.

True.

(got some stuff to solve, that's why I've been pretty inactive these days)
____________
Always nice to refresh yourself.

Mods I'm working on: Ashan to the Trashcan (last updated: May 26th)

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted May 18, 2020 08:04 PM

bloodsucker said:

That's because you only play an even map... Try to win against an AI hero with twice your prims, three or four times more army and natural fighting skills while your hero is strongly reliant on magic, if he has that.

Right, but I do play with Town Portal to nearest town, while AI can go anywhere. I would'nt say that is easy either.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted May 18, 2020 11:25 PM

bloodsucker said:

Because meteors hitting the ground causes craters?


Ofc, with that kind of thinking pretty much everything can be explained - one could even argue why fire should be weak to fire - it's just that the rest of elemental related features are consisntant, but this spesific case is not, or that's atleast how I see it.

bloodsucker said:

This is the reason I never understood why HotA created the Ring of Oblivion. It would be ok, I guess, if like the Horn or the Armageddon's Blade it was only possible to find it on map if the mapmaker deliberately put it there.


What do you mean? Ofc you can simply ban it even right now? Or allow it to be picked in one/few places on the map?

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