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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: The ideal HoMM: where do Wizards belong?
Thread: The ideal HoMM: where do Wizards belong?
FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 27, 2020 03:29 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 15:30, 27 Jun 2020.

Poll Question:
The ideal HoMM: where do Wizards belong?

Wizard faction also refers to Tower and Academy/Order.

When they first appeared in H2, the Wizard faction was settled in the desert, on the continent of Enroth. However, in H3, when the action took place on the continent of Antagarich, the Wizard faction became Tower, and it had snow as its native terrain, as well as later on in H4 when it was renamed to Order/Academy, on Axeoth.

The Wizard faction in the upcoming games might have continued to have snow as its native terrain, if NWC would have made H5, but with Ubisoft buying the franchise, the Wizards' native terrain became desert again in all of Ubisoft's new games (excluding the heretic H3 HD Edition and some other mobile games).

We should also take in consideration, according to the lore of Heroes Chronicles and MM games, the Wizards were also settled on different terrains as well, but not in such great numbers.

Question is, in your ideal HoMM game, which would be the Wizards' native terrain?

Responses:
Snow
Sand/Desert
Grass
Highlands
Rough
Dirt
Swamp
Lava
Subterranean
 View Results!

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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
posted June 27, 2020 03:55 PM

I never really liked Wizards on the snow terrain. So sand it is for me.

Of course, it happens that I like the Wizard town in H2 and Academy in H5 better than Tower in H3 so there's that.

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
posted June 27, 2020 03:59 PM

I would say, if we consider all factions, Sand/Desert should be Wizards. For Snow i would prefer Mountain Dwarves based on Red Dwarves from Heroes 4/Ashan Dwarven Fortress.
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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted June 27, 2020 04:35 PM

this poll gives me headaches because I'm trying to figure out when / where I have heard/learnbed about wizards for the first time, and I can't remember it one bit. So, I am really clueless about where wizards originate, when they have appeared into mankind's folklore and whatnot.

So, given the lack of knowledge, the image that forms in my mind when I think about the word "wizard" is Gandalf from the The Hobbit movie, so - and this might, or might not be true, but it's what it is - I associate wizards with green grass, and rejuventation and all that crap.

So, grass...
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 27, 2020 04:38 PM

We were talking about HoMM Wizards, but I'll accept that.
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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted June 27, 2020 04:49 PM

FirePaladin said:
We were talking about HoMM Wizards, but I'll accept that.
sorry, I misinterpreted your poll.

If exclusively HoMM then I'll go with snow, just because H3 is the 1st HoMM game I have played, so that's where I've first heard about wizards.

I can't change the result of the poll, though...
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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted June 27, 2020 04:49 PM

Snow is OK, but desert/sand I don't like or get into. I voted grass, because I created Return to the Avenger (MWM2/H4). Beautiful the name of the city is Snow Dragon. Yeah spring environment like grass. Other terrain type doesn't belonged to Tower/Academy. We can use snow, desert/sand or grass. Point.
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TheYellowDart
TheYellowDart

Tavern Dweller
posted June 27, 2020 05:11 PM

Interestingly enough, Bracada is actually a desert nation. I think Tower is snowy because it's supposed to be high up in the mountains? But the actual terrain at the bottom of those mountains is desert.

(I suspect it was actually mostly a gameplay thing - they wanted a faction who could have Snow as their native terrain).

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Stevie
Stevie


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 27, 2020 05:47 PM

I like snow and desert both, just depends on the theme of the town. Tower felt more like alchemy and clockwork to me, the medieval kind, magi with cauldrons and golems and stuff. Academy felt a lot more magical, town was actually in the sky, wizards with arcane powers conjuring magical beings, the high fantasy type. Could swing either way, but I liked Academy more.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 27, 2020 07:55 PM

I voted none because Wizards belong nowhere or anywhere because they...

..


...are NOT a race !!

Don't get me wrong, i really liked Tower faction because of its gameplay and HoMM 5 Academy is simply breathtaking (WoW Dalaran much? HoMM 5 was released in 2006 and WoW: Lich King in 2008 - another copied element)

But Wizards is a class. Anything can be a wizard. A human can be a wizard, an elf can be a wizard, anything.

NWC kinda got lost in terms of races and classes. I know that they started out in HoMM 1 and 2 with class differenciations: Knight, Sorceress, Wizard, Barbarian which are CLASSES, but in HoMM 3, everything got mixed up in a soup:

Castle is humans, not knights anymore, which is a race
Rampart is elves - race
Inferno is demons/kreegans - race (well, faction of multiple demon races actually which is a difference because magogs are a race of kreegans, demons are a race of kreegans, pit lords are another race of kreegans etc.)
Stronghold is a faction - ogres, goblins, orcs, cyclops
..
Tower is wizards - class
Cove is pirates - class (including fan made factions)


So, IMO, wizards is not a race.

But if i were to do anything about this matter, i would implement all versions into the game, separately, with different races. Yes, i understand that there is a lot more work, but the more the better.


And if i were to remake our beloved Tower, i would replace human elements because we already have a human faction, therefore, Gargoyles, Golems, Magis and Titans would be out (the golems are human constructs made in their image).

The best line up formula for me would be:
2 humanoid races living in peace
5 beasts/elementals/mythical creatures

Tower is a faction that is built so high up in the mountains that it meets snow and fost.
Which animals do you see the most in the mountains? sheeps, bears and some eagles.

Level 1: Gremlin - not as slaves
Level 2: Bear
Level 3: Ice golems (Ice demons from HoMM 4 which dont look like humans)
Level 4: Sheepman/Satyr

- yes, get rid of the nature or shadowy satyr and make the wise, white sheep/goat man/ satyr that controls ice/air/water magic. It can even be a druid because there is always a flora and fauna in every geographic place (lichens, moss, pine trees, insects, animals), but that is other discussion about classes.
- imagine this but with clothing that suits mountain climate.

Level 5 - genies - which are actually more powerful air elementals (but that is another discussion)
Level 6 - nagas
Level 7 - Yeti/Snow birds/Ice/Azure/Snow Dragon

Tower is a fun and awesome heroes 3 faction, but lore wise, it's not so great.

Tower is nothing more than another human kingdom from the continent of Erathia, which is called Bracada, so they're humans. They can easily be represented by Castle.

The difference between Erathia humans and Bracada humans is their geographic place. Grass/Dirt (planes) VS snow (mountains).

I think that the terrain should be more influential in the game than it is now, but that is also another discussion.

For now, i think that this would be a good idea of a mountaineous faction. And their rulers would be Satyrs and Gremlins. Imagine the lore possibilities and how would they be related to Minotaurs.

As for the desert, there are other types of animals that live there and could be humanoids (snakes, camels, scorpions) which are reserved for Bastion and Oasis
...which can also be wizards because wizards is a class haha







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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 27, 2020 07:59 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 20:01, 27 Jun 2020.

I said as a faction, not race. What I meant is where you would want current Wizard/Tower/Academy faction to be.
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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
posted June 27, 2020 08:24 PM

I like Dj's idea of a town without human elements. Feels refreshing.
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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 27, 2020 08:26 PM

We can always have another one instead of Tower, like Conflux, which shouldn't even have included humans in the first place, or even Fortress.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 27, 2020 08:43 PM
Edited by dj at 20:44, 27 Jun 2020.

For a person like me that takes lore into consideration, your question is confusing.


You asked me about 3 different things that have so little in common (only the term 'Wizard').

Wizard

I suppose that this refers to HoMM 2. It represents a dirt (?) faction.
So wizard is a castle and a hero class.
They are located on the continent of Enroth and they are mainly humans.

Tower

HoMM 3 faction. It represents a snow faction.
Tower is actually a type of building that is (probably) suitable (probably visually) to the mountains and it represents a faction of humans, another kingdom of humans on the South of Erathia continent.

Academy (HoMM 4)

It doesnt represent any terrain at all. In HoMM 4 the type of terrain changed in the city view of all factions. And i think that is the most awesome idea and it should TELL us something. It should tell us that there is nothing logic that a Tower faction would exist in a desert area like in HoMM 3 or Dungeon on the ground level or Fortress in snow. That doesnt make sense even at the magic level.
It represents the descendants of the wizards of Bracada that survived the cataclysm and rebuilt their society on Axeoth.

Academy (new universe)

Don't know much but the fact that they are wizards on desert.


So, for me, it's like making me choose between oranges, lemons and pomelos. They are all fruits and citrus (commom elements: wizards, humans) but they taste different (different elements: terrain, lore place). Personally, i want them all because they are good, even if sweet or bitter.

Calling them faction or race doesnt sound good to me. And the fact that they changed so much over the installments says a lot about how they are viewed and that is wrongly (lore wise).

I dont know how much it makes sense to you, but i cannot call rampart a faction of elves, castle a faction of humans and tower a faction of wizards.

Back to the poll, i cannot pick any vote because the term 'wizard' is too hard for me to associate with a terrain. Like all other classes, a wizard can operate in any terrain. Any race can be a wizard.

Secondly, you are actually asking me if i pick between the factions: wiazards from enroth (i dont know how it's called), Bracada, Great Arcan and wizards from ashan (don't know their name either) and i need context for that.

If you ask me about aesthetics, you asked me about very different looks. From dirt to snow to desert.

If you asked me about Dungeon, yes, there would be a much easier answer because it changed too little. And dungeon gained some sort of identity, even lore wise. They are not part of another kingdom, they do not have any human unit (only heroes but that is normal for any faction) and they were always in caves.

So yeah, my answer is, Wizards belong to classes not factions or races.




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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 27, 2020 08:45 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 20:48, 27 Jun 2020.

I just used the first term of the faction, which appeared in H2, Wizard faction. Would have using Tower or Academy, or even Wizard/Academy/Tower each time be better?

And yes, Wizard (Faction)=Tower=Academy (in all other games).

And I wasn't talking about wizards as spell-casters anyway. Dang, then we would be talking about Warlocks, Withces, etc.

And native terrain is the terrain which the faction's creatures like the most, for various reasons, or are more suited to it.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 27, 2020 09:01 PM

That is why I answered with a suggestion of different races for the two types of terrains that the wizards have been on: snow and sand.


Give to each type of terrain a faction based on the humanoid version of the mammals that live there.

Like you said 'native terrain is the terrain which the faction's creatures like the most [...] or are more suited to it.'. It should influence the creatures. And heroes (sometimes wizards, sometimes druids, sometimes witches) intervene with magic to control the terrain and everything in it (elements, fauna, flora).


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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 27, 2020 09:05 PM

I agree with your points here, to be honest.
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dj
dj


Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
posted June 27, 2020 09:07 PM
Edited by dj at 21:19, 27 Jun 2020.

or you said it to make me stop haha. kidding.


get ready for my answer to forge thread

EDIT: while thinking about the humanoid version of each mammal, it ocurred to me about the humans. In which terrain would the humans be suitable?

Since they are the humanoid version of the monkey, they would naturally occur in terrains where monkeys occur. But, as they evolved, they could take over the other terrains because they can handle anything.

And that would apply to all humanoid versions of each animal. They would be suitable to any terrain as well as humans because they are sentient, upright etc.

But humans would choose to live with the monkeys (that is in their habitat/terrain) to protect them and whatnot.

There would be two choices for the humans and their place in the lore:
1. evolved (whatever the means) from monkeys like minotaur evolved from bulls;

-but then we would have to think about a logical origin of the elves,dwarves, gnomes, orcs, ogres

2. humans, elves, dwarves etc. are aliens and we have to think about their extra-enrothian origins.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Supreme Hero
Undercover modder
posted June 27, 2020 09:11 PM

K then, I'll get ready. I got used to the MM7 droid concept a while ago anyway, so what can surprise me.
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TheYellowDart
TheYellowDart

Tavern Dweller
posted June 30, 2020 03:47 PM

Quote:
But Wizards is a class. Anything can be a wizard. A human can be a wizard, an elf can be a wizard, anything.


Sure, but isn't that kind of the point? Bracada is where the School of Sorcery is. It's not that all wizards are from Bracada, it's that anyone who wants to be formally recognized as a wizard has to join Bracada.
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