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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Is Pathfinding skill needed in HotA?
Thread: Is Pathfinding skill needed in HotA? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 05, 2021 08:19 AM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 08:21, 05 Jul 2021.

Poll Question:
Is Pathfinding skill needed in HotA?

In HotA there are a lot of things that ruin the Pathfinding skill:
* Creatures on native terrain.
* Nomads on sand terrain.
* DD.
* Fly.
* Angel Wings.
* Wayfarer's Boots.

So with all the above, my question is, should all these things be allowed at the same time?


Responses:
Yes, all the above should be allowed.
Pathfinding should be banned, other things allowed.
Wayfarer's Boots should be banned, other things allowed.
Angel Wings should be banned, other things allowed.
Wayfarer's Boots and Angel Wings should be banned, other things allowed.
Other (Write a comment below.)
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LouWeed
LouWeed


Adventuring Hero
posted July 06, 2021 12:06 AM
Edited by LouWeed at 00:08, 06 Jul 2021.

Pathfinding is actually more useful now, for two reasons: A) Logistics got nerfed, making Pathfinding the more useful skill wherever there's a terrain penalty - even on Rough terrain - and B) there's effectively twice as much swamp now that Cove has been added. The only new thing you listed against that is the wayfarer's boots.

I wasn't exactly sure on the maths until you asked the question; you get max 2000 movement points a day - say you're travelling over snow with phoenixes, each step is going to use 1.5 times as many movement points as usual, so you effectively have only 2000/1.5 = 1333 movement points if you're travelling over snow the whole day.

Effective movement points:

Terrain:    Default: Logistics: Pathfinding:   Log + PF:
No penalty      2000       2400         2000        2400
125%            1600       1920         2000        2400
150%            1333       1600         2000        2400
175%            1143       1371         2000        2400


Basically the only thing that makes pathfinding useless is if there is no terrain penalty on the map at all

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 06, 2021 07:25 AM

But Wayfarer's Boots and Angel Wings makes Pathfinding useless...

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LouWeed
LouWeed


Adventuring Hero
posted July 06, 2021 07:32 AM

And? By that logic, The Orb of inhibition makes all magic skills useless

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 06, 2021 08:12 AM

If you want to cast magic, you can just not equip Orb of Inhibition.
As soon as you get Wayfarer's Boots or Angel Wings or if you can cast Expert Fly, Pathfinding is a wasted skill.

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louweed
louweed


Adventuring Hero
posted July 06, 2021 09:24 AM

So I shouldn't choose pathfinding on the off-chance I acquire one of those artifacts? Then I shouldn't choose any magic skills on the off-chance my opponent acquires the orb of inhibition. Right?

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 06, 2021 03:16 PM

Well if I have Air Magic and Fly or suspect I will get them soon, I probably won't pick Pathfinding.
And if Wayfarer's Boots and/or Angel Wings are available I will probably not consider Pathfinding at all, since it will become obsolete sooner or later.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted July 06, 2021 05:21 PM

It's an okay skill, I don't see why there would be a need for some kind of change. Pathfinding is IMO easily better in Hota than it was in SoD back in the day, due the changes how the movement penalty is applied, and there being the new Wasteland terrain, and the fact that Cove mainly starts on swamp.

Yes, there's the new boots item, but that doesn't really change all that much. In the end, it's one artifact, nobody guarantees you're going to have one on the map, and even if such item exists, how long it will take you to get it.

Also, I don't think there should be much reason to blindly picking pathfinding early, and simply expecting it to generate enough value along the way to justify it. No, rather it should be taken to consideration when you know you're soon going to enter (or currently are) on a zone with a heavy movement penalty. This allows the player to get at least something out of pathfinding.

But overall, you don't really want to build in onto your main if possible, but on a secondary hero it's even a good skill I would say.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 06, 2021 06:43 PM

Yeah I don't know, I don't really like how 2 artifacts completely ruin the skill.
It's the same with Wizard's Well and Mysticism etc.

Maybe if for example Pathfinding and Mysticism also had some additional minor effect they would still be worth something or maybe I should just disable Wayfarer's Boots and Angel Wings...

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Famous Hero
posted July 06, 2021 08:54 PM

Phoenix4ever said:
Yeah I don't know, I don't really like how 2 artifacts completely ruin the skill.
It's the same with Wizard's Well and Mysticism etc.

Maybe if for example Pathfinding and Mysticism also had some additional minor effect they would still be worth something or maybe I should just disable Wayfarer's Boots and Angel Wings...

Do what you need, but I kinda feel you're maybe a bit more concerned about the situation than you probably should be.

It's mostly a skill meant for your side heroes so that they can go off-road, quite comparable to Estates and Scouting, not really optimal for your main hero, but not necessary a catastrophe.

I think the skill is fine right now, I mean there are far worse skills. But I kinda agree that it could use some tweaking, you know, to make it interesting pick for mains. Pathfinding was on Docent's list when they we're talking about skills that would receive some changes at some point. Hopefully something will be done for it.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted July 06, 2021 09:15 PM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 21:25, 06 Jul 2021.

Maybe Pathfinding IS meant for secondary heroes, but there might also be situations where your main hero starts with it.
Take Corkes for example, he starts with Offense and Pathfinding and specialises in Offense, he is a pretty good hero, right? Should he only be a secondary hero, because he starts with Pathfinding though?

You will also encounter Pathfinding at level-ups with your main.
Let's say you get offered Pathfinding or First Aid.
Should you then take a skill that can become completely useless, if you have Expert Fly or 1 of the 2 artifacts or pick a skill that is just garbage really?

I guess I just don't like artifacts that ruins skills.
Imagine if there were artifacts for Expert Earth Magic, Expert Offense or Expert Logistics, it just kinda ruins the skills.

Another stupid artifact is Pendant of Courage, which has the same effect as Expert Leadership AND Expert Luck.

If you have Wayfarer's Boots or Angel Wings, Pendant of Courage and Wizard's Well, you just got 4 extra skills, but if you have any of these skills already, they are pretty much useless.

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LouWeed
LouWeed


Adventuring Hero
posted July 06, 2021 11:22 PM

The only improvement to Pathfinding I can think of would be to reduce the movement penalty for carrying slow troops

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Ghost
Ghost


Legendary Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 12, 2022 02:01 AM

I'm Elite in necrothread

Ok I really don't know about "When flying over terrain that has its own penalty for the hero, the lesser of the penalties is applied." I quoted from heroes.thelazy. I can't remember every test, I tested Logistics against Boots of Speed, etc When I can't English also I haven't a Internet, thus I analyzed and tried every spells, etc

Ok I think that HotA needs to make Pathfinding improvements are large penalty, what you can realized in WoG, so you can give extra penalty to Rough and triple to Snow, Swamp, for example, I've tried that hero moved a few of step. We can't do Grass, ok then. An artifact doesn't ruin.. When you can reject Pathfinding skill, if you want, but you give to another hero, so I recommend you take a Pathfinfing.

Remember no one main hero but many heroes, you build heroes by your sense, luck and strategy, when you don't know about random (artifacts). Think about Navigation, if some gives you save game, and you can't open a map, etc You play without or with Navigation. In the future tournament!

Ok remember also their (HotA) opinion.. and we've found their simple strategy
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sarcosuchus
sarcosuchus

Tavern Dweller
posted September 14, 2022 12:27 PM

yes. I still used it in my scouts
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 14, 2022 03:18 PM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 15:18, 14 Sep 2022.

So for scouts yes, for main heroes no?
Yeah I guess that makes sense, I guess Corkes (HotA) is demoted to scout then.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted September 14, 2022 04:08 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 16:14, 14 Sep 2022.

My ass. Corkes is perfect for main and Pathfinding is quite good on him.
If in a random map, he will start in the hardest moving terrain and being able to use troops from other races early game will give you quite some tempo. Even if he is so lucky as to get one of the tricks that invalidate Pathfinding quite soon, a decent player will probably make such good use of his specialty and that tempo he will never regret the useless skill. On your custom maps, you can just trade it for something you feel more useful, as I often do in mine.
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 14, 2022 05:54 PM

You mean disable Pathfinding? Yeah I was actually considering that.
Currently I also have Angel Wings banned, they are quite crazy I think, especially with a Logistics specialist. (Maybe even more on an island map.)

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted September 14, 2022 09:41 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 21:54, 14 Sep 2022.

No, I mean edit the secondary skills of Corkes to be Offense and Logistics, Armorer or Tactics.
I never allow Fly & DD, cause they screw the blocks, so for me to remove Pathfinding seems a terrible idea.
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 14, 2022 10:01 PM

Ahh okay, but that would just make him even better, maybe only second to Logistics specialists.
I do allow Fly and DD and they seem fair enough to me in HotA. (DD only 1 time per day though and in Fire Magic and it might also depend on the map if DD should be allowed or not.)

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted September 14, 2022 10:25 PM
Edited by bloodsucker at 22:28, 14 Sep 2022.

One DD will still allow you to bypass the 4k Azure Dragons the mapmaker used to protect an area...
Do you still play only one map? Cause this is a pertinent problem for me. Why to create progressively richer treasure areas, with harder & harder blocks, if player can just ignore them? In MP they have rules about this but in SP some, including me, will use those travel spells to choose witch battles to take.  
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