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Pol
Known Hero
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posted March 19, 2025 07:49 PM |
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@Salamandre
That sounds like from alternative reality. Putin confirmed several times, from year 2008 till now, that he want back his SSSR. The only point is, that he doesn't call it empire.
But that matters none, as effectively it will be empire.
And let me to clarify it for you, according international law, they can't protect their minorities outside of Russia by force.
(That's even more peculiar, as these seeds of discontent here were seeded by Russia itself, by their Rossia TV and corrupted ua oligarchs.)
Yep, you might discuss it that superpowers don't play by international laws and you would be right and I can tell you, that they should as setting example is important and this can break the whole system.
I also understood why you have that point of view and you are not alone, time will tell. But it will be always late for the dead.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 19, 2025 08:11 PM |
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Also 2014 and 2022 have nothing to do with each other.
What exactly made the invasion in 2022 necessary? Keeping Ukraine from becoming part of NATO? Nah. They were at war since 2014. War is war - if Ukraine could have become a NATO member after 2014, why aren't they a NATO member now?
And the minority protection point is moot since Chechoslovakia 1938 at the latest, that's why I linked it.
I mean, part of Poland became Soviet territory after WW 2 and Belarus territory after 1990. There is a sizable Polish minority in Belarus.
Can you imagine Poland invading Belarus, claiming they wanted to protect the Polish minority, ending in proclaiming and acknowledging new independent provinces on Belarus territory? And if that sounds rather silly - why doesn't it sound silly when Russia is doing it?
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Salamandre
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posted March 19, 2025 10:03 PM |
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Pol said:
@Salamandre
Putin confirmed several times, from year 2008 till now, that he want back his SSSR. The only point is, that he doesn't call it empire.
I don't think so. Show.
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Zombiec97
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 19, 2025 10:50 PM |
- penalty applied by Galaad on 19 Mar 2025. |
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cerpentineHER000
Salamandre said:
Pol said:
@Salamandre
Putin confirmed several times, from year 2008 till now, that he want back his SSSR. The only point is, that he doesn't call it empire.
I don't think so. Show.
EMPIRE
EMPIRE
EMPIRE
g0d BLECc nikolaccruz
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted March 20, 2025 08:49 AM |
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Drakon-Deus said:
Salamandre said:
Looks to me Trump correctly deciphered the puzzle, while EU leaders are walking like drunk towards chaos.
Unfortunately, true. Viktor Orban is probably the only rational voice in that lot.
The rest are up the same alley as JJ: let the war continue, and if you think differently you're a paid Russian bot. Lol.
Minority!
Hungarians wanted Orban out..
Sad that wires are faulty causing the exposure time to be incorrect..
Later on no one speak about it.. But only learning a new belief and meanings..
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JollyJoker
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posted March 20, 2025 05:34 PM |
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I'm posting this link here because it's relevant in the context of this thread (although it's a symptom of a greater disease), especially when read in the context of this post on X of Putin's Cato the Elder, which seems to indicate that Russia and the USA are now going to dine on Europe.
I see a lot of Americans emigrating to Canada in the not too far future.
Which might create a case of "threatened minority". You know, what's good for the goose ... and so on.
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blizzard
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Urban Legend
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posted March 20, 2025 06:22 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 18:28, 20 Mar 2025.
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Validating Putin's reasoning for the war isn't a part of the peace negotiations. It is an established fact that the war is an illegal war of aggression.
It is also well-established that Ukraine will need to be heavily armed afterwards. Unfortunate, but necessary.
Medvedev isn't the president. Putin is. Posts on X aren't a part of peace negotiations.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 20, 2025 07:50 PM |
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Lol. That would actually be pretty funny if it wasn't so absurd.
For one thing, there won't be any Ukraine left to be heavily armed "afterwards" - whatever afterwards" is actually supposed to mean.
And for another, if there actually will be something left - do you really think Putin would watch how that something is "heavily armed"?
That's what you don't seem to understand. Russia and Ukraine are actually at war since 2014. If Russia wanted only the territory they hold since then - Crimea and the two territories Russia has declared to be independent states, the DPR and the LPR -, they wouldn't have had to invade the rest of the country. Life could have just gone on the way it had since 2014.
They invaded, though.
So their goals must go further than that. Any peace with any part of the Ukraine left will last only as long as there is a Russia-friendly puppet-regime in power the country is demilitarized so that Russia could easily invade again should one of those consitions change.
And you can't really think that Medwedev posts anything not okay with Putin. Everything coming from official sources is part of the negotiations.
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blizzard
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posted March 20, 2025 08:06 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 20:11, 20 Mar 2025.
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Medvedev trolling on social media makes Putin look moderate by comparison. That is the idea, I assume.
"Dine on Europe"? How is that suppose to happen? NATO countries are protected by thermonuclear weapons.
Even if USA left NATO (that is not going to happen) and even if it "dined" on Europe, the UK and France both have thermonuclear weapons, and France is an EU member state. Either of them could just turn Washington DC into ash if they wanted to, not like any of this is going to happen, because it's just a troll post on X.
Ukraine as a 2nd puppet state beside Belarus may have indeed been the original plan, but it hasn't worked. What Putin could get instead, in order to not appear like a failure at home, are territorial concessions. And then, unlike Czechoslovakia, Ukraine can be a heavily militarized country with some of the best equipment on the market. It sucks to have yet another DMZ-type line, sort of like Korea, but it's the best we've got to work with.
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Salamandre
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posted March 20, 2025 09:13 PM |
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Won't work, Russia demands for a neutral Ukraine, not again an US militarized puppet, with Victoria Nuland selecting government after US supported Maidan coup. I think best way to have peace in Ukraine is US, and consequently EU, just stay away and mind their business.
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JollyJoker
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posted March 20, 2025 10:44 PM |
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*Sigh*
EuroMaidan wasn't a coup. The "coup" was that Russia didn't want Ukraine to develop strong ties to the EU (and possibly become a member), although the parliament had ratified it already, so they put pressure on Vanukovych who prompty declined ratification - which got the ball rolling.
Nuclear weapons don't offer "protection". They are supposed to "deter" - but of course they deter only from trying what would supposedly be a real biggie.
NATO is fine, but I don't think a limited Russian attack on Estonia, say, would provoke nuclear war and mutual destruction. Nobody would want that, not even the Estonians.
In fact, come to think of it, nuclear war is EXTREMELY unlikely, no matter what. However, creating the impression and threatening with it is important to create fear in the general population, which Russia has been doing the last years, and rather successfully so.
Leaving Ukraine simply to Russian aggression would be a fatal signal
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blizzard
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posted March 20, 2025 11:28 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Won't work, Russia demands for a neutral Ukraine, not again an US militarized puppet, with Victoria Nuland selecting government after US supported Maidan coup. I think best way to have peace in Ukraine is US, and consequently EU, just stay away and mind their business.
That is a death sentence for Ukraine.
Also any chance of a "neutral Ukraine" is doomed at this point. It is just about as far away from neutral as you can get. After peace settlement, there is going to be lots of US equipment in Ukraine and reconstruction in exchange for REEs.
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Salamandre
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posted March 20, 2025 11:28 PM |
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People tend to always look in the direction from which their convictions are echoed back, then voluntary ignore history, in its complexity. You probably don't know or try to ignore that, since the 19th century, the US has participated and interfered, both overtly and covertly, in the replacement of many foreign governments. Latin America, Southwest Pacific, then from 1950 China, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Indonesia, Cuba, Congo, Afghanistan, Iraq, I could go for hours.
From 1983, NED (National Endowment for Democracy), a CIA branch, was established to promote "democratic change" in communist states. In 1986, Brzezinski (whisper master at presidents ears) proposed supporting nationalism and democratic aspirations among national and religious minorities such as Ukrainians, Muslims, and the Baltics in order to politically and economically decentralize the Soviet system.The foundation channeled aid to groups in the Baltic States, Armenia, Russia, and Ukraine that sought greater independence from Gorbachev's central government.
Precisely, in 1990-1991, the NED supported network of Ukrainian-American organizations funded aid to the Ukrainian independence movement. More recently, The New York times revealed that Navalny himself was equally funded with millions of dollars by the CIA.
So please give me a break with "Russia aggression on Ukraine", when basically a military, economically and politically sprawling system was put in place by US, to destabilize Russia ; there even was a plan in which Russia had to be fragmented in multiple states so the economical and Geo-political threat went away.
900 military bases abroad vs 20 of Russia (but Russia is the imperialist ?!), hundreds of US organizations working to dismantle the "enemy" from within, and now everyone plays shocked when Russia dares to say NO, enough.
Shockingly, you hold Trump as responsible of actual situation, while it was Biden decision which potentially ruined your country and France as well, the terrorist attack on NordStream 2.
So yes, *Sigh* indeed. Fanaticism is brother to ignorance.
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Salamandre
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posted March 20, 2025 11:34 PM |
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blizzard said:
That is a death sentence for Ukraine.
Why? The russian regions, as well as Crimea, want to be part of Russia, multiple referendums came with same overwhelming result. Ukraine proved it can't handle them outside of chaos. Then the basic principles of non-coalition and future neutrality are contained in Ukraine constitution (1996). Just respect your constitution and you will be fine.
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blizzard
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posted March 20, 2025 11:34 PM |
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@JJ
The ambiguity of potential nuclear war is enough, not the guarantee of it. It has worked so far.
NATO isn't only about nukes. An incursion into the Baltics means actual military can/will be sent. So, taking any NATO country is pretty much hopeless.
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blizzard
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posted March 20, 2025 11:37 PM |
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Salamandre said:
blizzard said:
That is a death sentence for Ukraine.
Why? The russian regions, as well as Crimea, want to be part of Russia, multiple referendums came with same overwhelming result. Ukraine proved it can't handle them outside of chaos. Then the basic principles of non-coalition and future neutrality are contained in Ukraine constitution (1996). Just respect your constitution and you will be fine.
I wasn't aware Russia was responsible for the enforcement or lack of enforcement of the Ukrainian constitution.
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blizzard
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posted March 20, 2025 11:42 PM |
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Edited by blizzard at 23:43, 20 Mar 2025.
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Constitutions are an internal document for establishing a rule of law within a sovereign country. They aren't a treaty that a country signs with another country. China would say that Japan isn't actually following its own constitution anymore, as it has been remilitarizing in the past decade. Okay? And? That is for judicial bodies within the country to determine.
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Salamandre
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posted March 21, 2025 12:19 AM |
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Yes, but Ukraine isn't a sovereign country in the sense we hold the concept, universally and secular. Its existence is the result of an empire collapse, thus adjustments may occur, depending how situation evolves (a close situation would be France - Algeria history, independence didn't go smooth then even today, 60 years later relations are worst ever). I can understand the Russian irritation when Ukraine, for example, legislates the prohibition of Russian minorities from speaking their language in public or from school instruction, in contradiction with own constitution.
Article 53 :
Citizens who belong to national minorities are guaranteed in accordance with the law the right to receive instruction in their native language, or to study their native language in state and communal educational establishments and through national cultural societies.
Ukraine doesn't want russian minorities, they hate them, so why not let them integrate back Russia. The Minsk agreements failed. This is based on my perspective, in which Russia has no intention of taking more than they already said a thousand of times.
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blizzard
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posted March 21, 2025 01:47 AM |
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Edited by blizzard at 02:22, 21 Mar 2025.
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Here is the thing, giving some credit to JJ: it is very clear with the initial operation - which failed badly - that Russia wanted to replace the government in Kyiv. So, it was an attempt to create a satellite.
I do think the peace can work IF Ukraine is heavily armed and its miliitary rebuilt, because I don't think Putin or his inner circle are psychopaths. They can be placated with territorial concessions. As far as just taking Russia for its word; that is a ridiculous idea. You can't honestly expect anybody to go with that, because after the peace there is still going to be somebody somewhere in Ukraine who is being mistreated. So, Putin can easily reuse and recycle his same rationalization for the first invasion, and the whole thing starts over again. That is dumb. You want to create a situation where a 2nd invasion would be even costlier for Russia than the first. That means lots and lots of landscaping, a large conscripted army, and a very thick shield of missiles.
The problem right now is that Ukraine does not have the ability to retake its lost territory, which Russia has spent the past 2 years fortifying and landscaping. That is why the US needs to use its enormous influence to push and shove and arm twist for a settlement, otherwise it is several more years of war without Ukraine ever achieving its goal. That is also dumb, and I don't want my government paying for it when there is no realistic expectation that things will be better a few years down the road. What Ukraine actually needs are soldiers, and it can't supply enough from its own population.
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Salamandre
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posted March 21, 2025 02:21 AM |
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Ok, so Ukraine can't win without massive man power supply, which won't happen, and on the other side, you don't want to pay for more weapons, because they won't change the fate. So what that leaves ?
Look, Putin said what he will do if this or that, starting in 2008. Everyone was like "why listen to him". Now that he did what he said he will do, and succeeded, you still say "why listen to him".
You remember to old adage about foolishness : doing same thing over and over then expecting a different result.
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