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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Town concept: The Fair (a neutral town)
Thread: Town concept: The Fair (a neutral town)
NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted May 26, 2022 08:09 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 04:46, 27 May 2022.

Town concept: The Fair (a neutral town)

Well, let me know if this has ever done before.

Basically, Conflux was a "neutral town with elementals". You could call this Neutral Town 2: Electric Boogaloo (now with 100% less elementals!).

This town is made from neutral creatures. (Duh!)

The concept is, it doesn't have upgrades. Instead, it has a pseudo-H4 mechanic where every level you can choose one of a select choice of creatures in that level.

I think in VCMI it's not that hard to program. I already had seen some town that did alternative upgrades in VCMI (dodos for example), so I don't think this would be that different.

Aestethic:



This would look like a medieval Fair. The concept is of a town of refugees and nomads. Colorful fabrics, tens. Think the Refugee Camp object and the Mercenary Camp, and also Keymaster's Tents.

Remember also that Mongols lived in tents yet they conquered much of the world. Arabs also came from tents. Point is, never underestimate the tent-dwellers (?)



Level 1:
Choose Halflings / Leprechauns
* Halflings are ranged and have Slayer pre-cast (not +1 luck).
* Leprechauns (which are weaker than HotA version) cast Adv. Fortune once.

Level 2:
Choose Rogues / Boar Riders
* Rogues have Spying and a new ability: Defends before enemy attack. Their building gives acess to build Thieves's Guild (same as Cove one)
* Boar Riders always have positive morale (as Minotaur ablity). They have a Horde building for +3 weekly growth.

Level 3:
Choose Nomads / Mummies
* Nomads are fast and act as full pathfinding for sand terrain. Health is reduced to 25. Nomads are altered to be native to Sand terrain, thus gain bonuses in combat.
* Mummies are slow, undead and cast Curse on attack (probability is altered to 100%). Gold cost is reduced from 300 to 235.

Level 4:
Choose Sharpshooter / Satyrs
* Sharpshooters are ranged with no obtacle penalty.
* Satyrs can cast Adv. Mirth twice per combat.

Level 5:
Choose Trolls / Gold Golems
* Trolls Regenerate, and also gain a 25% chance to stun target in mele for one round.
* Gold Golems are unliving with 85% magic damage resistance. They have a Horde building for +1 growth.

Level 6:
Choose Enchanters / Diamond Golems
* Enchanters cast andom spells on your army or the enemy's. Their dwelling gives acess to Library.
* Diamond Golems get +1 speed, +1 attack, +4 defense. They also have a Horde building for +1 growth.

Level 7:
Choose Faerie / Rust / Crystal / Azure dragons.
* Requires Castle.
* Faerie Dragon base growth 0.5/week (4 per month with Castle). Price adjusted to 8000 and 8 gems.
* Rust Dragon base growth 0.33.../week (2.66... per month with Castle). Price adjusted to 12000 and 12 sulfur.
* Crystal Dragon base growth 0.25/week (2 per month with Castle). Price adjusted to 16000 and 16 crystals.
* Azure Dragon base growth 0.166.../week (1.33... per month with Castle). Price adjusted to 24000 and 24 mercury.

Overall I aimed to make the town's creatures more mathematically balanced while keeping the lazy theme

Special buildings:

* Carnival
1250 gold, 5 wood, 1 crystal, mercury, gems, sulphur
> -1 luck to enemy and +1 luck and morale to self when defending against a siege.

* Demobilization Comissioner
2000 gold, 5 crystals, 5 stone
> Turns any other non-undead creature into Peasants. Gives XP to visiting hero equal to 6% of creature's AI value (Altar of Sacrifice gives 5*(AI/40), aprox. 12.5%).

* Mystic Tent
1500 gold
> Tells you the next "week of" and "month of".
* Mystic Coven
3500 gold, 5 gems, 5 wood, 5 stone
> "Upgrade" to Mystic Tent. Works as university: Heroes can learn basic Mysticism, Sorcery, Learning or Eagle Eye for 2000 gold each.

* Junker
2500 gold, 2 stone, 2 wood, 5 mercury
> You sell artifacts, the Junker pays 50% of their standard price in any resource.

Standard specifications:

* Blacksmith
> Buy Ammo Carts.
* Healer's Hut
1000 gold, 5 wood
> Second "blacksmith", buy First Aid Tents.

* Resource Silo
> When built, you can choose the resource it gives amongst Crystal, Gems, Sulphur and Mercury. (important for different Dragons)

* Bazaar
> "Upgrade" to market. Doesn't do anything else, but counts as another market for trade discount purposes.

* Mage Guild
> Up to level three only.

* Grail
> +5000 gold, +50% creature growth (as usual). Negates luck bonuses of all enemy armies when in combat with your towns and heroes. (as Hourglass of the Evil Hour)

_______________

So, if people think this is interesting, I can go with heroes and their skills and specialties. There is actually more variety in heroes, as heroes have to specify, for example, if they get Halflings or Leprechauns (or Peasants?), Boar Riders or Rogues, and Nomads or Mummies.

I like the concept of a Fair town , but maybe you think otherwise. Who knows.

If people like this, I may eventually do it in VCMI as I can do the .jsons (at least the creature and basic stuff part. Some of the special mechanics are too hard to implement)

* Creature DEFs are already there as well as their portraits. Just some stat and ability changes (which is json).
* Heroes are easy, just a portrait and some json code and text.
* Hardest part is the town screen art, but not impossible by any means. (only difficult to make it look as good as the original ones, not just "to make it")
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Never changing = never improving

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53lm
53lm


Hired Hero
posted May 26, 2022 02:51 PM

cool

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 26, 2022 05:22 PM

I like the concept of a town called "fair" (or "carnival"), but I'd want fair/circus/carnival units. Jugglers/Knifethrowers/Whipwielders, White Tigers or Bears/Bear Riders, Satyrs are fine, Fairy Dragons are fine - something more like that, you know.
The trouble is, this would be cool if the was an AoW II mechanic so that you could make the town "movable", you know. Pack things up and move it to a different place (although that doesn't seem necessary in H3)

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Ancientdruids
Ancientdruids


Known Hero
(Andruids for short)
posted May 26, 2022 06:41 PM

JollyJoker said:
I like the concept of a town called "fair" (or "carnival"), but I'd want fair/circus/carnival units. Jugglers/Knifethrowers/Whipwielders, White Tigers or Bears/Bear Riders, Satyrs are fine, Fairy Dragons are fine - something more like that, you know.
The trouble is, this would be cool if the was an AoW II mechanic so that you could make the town "movable", you know. Pack things up and move it to a different place (although that doesn't seem necessary in H3)


^ This! Throw in illusionists, harlequins and beast tamers, and I'm sold. This overlaps with madness town, of course, but at this point it has the same chances of coming out, as Kronwerk, Enclave, Kremlin and other discontinued concept towns. So I'd take either one.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted May 26, 2022 09:51 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 01:22, 27 May 2022.

Well, getting those creature graphics is the hard part. But if you can get me/locate the creature .DEFs you would like to see, I could do it still.

I think Leprechauns could still fit in the theme as well as rogues, halflings and enchanters (they do look like fair fortunetellers, lol). That makes it that potentially we need only a slot:
Lvl 1 - Halflings
Lvl 2 - Rogues
Lvl 3 - Leprechauns
Lvl 4 - Satyrs
Lvl 5 - ??? - Sharpshooters? Trolls?
Lvl 6 - Enchanters
Lvl 7 - Faerie Dragons

A problem with this lineup: Too many humanoids. If we had a circus bear, tiger or elephant it would be cool.
Boar rider may or may not be a support unit.
Upgrades/unupgrades could be done via recolors (tho there are already some defs for upgraded rogues).

As can be seen in the alternate lineup, I would agree that some of the creatures (Mummies, Nomads, Gold Golems) would be a better fit in a more desert-themed, middle eastern style town (but we already have Pavilion/Bastion for that, so I would leave that theme to the professionals ).
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Never changing = never improving

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Ancientdruids
Ancientdruids


Known Hero
(Andruids for short)
posted May 27, 2022 03:23 AM

It's possible to make a creature, for example a midget launching himself out of a cannon, to lose 1 creature from its own stack after a distance attack in VCMI. Just saying ; )

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted May 27, 2022 04:43 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 05:12, 27 May 2022.

Mhmm, i anything, I woul say the "midget cannon" would be the alternate siege macine, much like Cove has the... regular cannon.

A design thing: The town aleady has too many ranged units!

I think shapshooters would have to e defnitely out o the question as well as any other ranged for new creature.

Halflings and Enchanters, which fit quite well, are ranged.
Faerie Dragons, which also may fit, count as ranged (also, we have no better lvl 7 candidate, unless we have a superheavy elephant def (?)) due to spellcasting.

This aleady makes the town as ranged as the most ranged one, Tower.

Satyrs and Leprechauns also have spellcasting action (similar to master genie one)

So, any new unit definitely has to be melee/aggro...
(perhaps, de-upgraded version of faerie dragon doesn't spellcast or can only do so once, and de-upgraded version of Enchanter doesn't have spells.)

I believe a recolor of trolls to human skin tone could be done as "giant circus freaks" , at least for de-upgraded version.

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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted May 27, 2022 08:31 AM

Or recolor of dwarves to Beard Women:-)

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted May 28, 2022 09:58 PM

What would be the difference?

Dwarven women are already bearded according to traditional lore (?)

Anyways I have been researching more VCMi in order to eventually make the town. I'm pretty certain I can make it fun and balanced, even without overloading it with features like the slightly OP cove.
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Never changing = never improving

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luk3Z
luk3Z


Hired Hero
posted May 30, 2022 04:14 PM
Edited by luk3Z at 16:23, 30 May 2022.

Definitely good idea.

Level 1: Halflings
Level 2: Rogues
Level 3: Nomads
Level 4: Satyrs
Level 5: Gold Golems
Level 6: Enchanters
Level 7: Rust dragons (more climatic)

Boar rider rather looks like Stronghold unit (similar to goblin).

https://heroes.thelazy.net/index.php/Neutral_creature

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baronus
baronus


Promising
Legendary Hero
posted May 30, 2022 07:20 PM

Hard to combine new town with so variuos units. 4 dragons too strong. 2 golems in fact to tower. 1 undead. Enchanters and sharpshooters are upgrades. Peasants to castle. Halfings to Rampart.
Trolls, boarriders, nomads and rouges can be a second barbarian faction.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted May 31, 2022 06:58 AM

Quote:
4 dragons too strong


The idea is that you only choose one.
But anyways, I think I have settled for Faerie dragon. it brings the sense of wonder and is also the closest one to normal Level 7 power, specially with an added de-upgrade.

In any case, I am not certain how to implement the "always 1 growth per week" mechanic.

It seems like Base Growth has to be at least 1. Then Castle doubles that base growth...

Anyone kno how to change it?

Otherwise I will just have to keep the two per week with Castle and hope that balance is just "It's prohibitively expensive".
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Never changing = never improving

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baronus
baronus


Promising
Legendary Hero
posted May 31, 2022 04:50 PM

No way. Game mechanics. Best idea to reduce HP for faerie dragon. Like h4.

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Macron1
Macron1


Supreme Hero
posted May 31, 2022 05:38 PM

NimoStar said:
It seems like Base Growth has to be at least 1. Then Castle doubles that base growth...

Anyone kno how to change it?


I think we can add to castle bonus something like this:

"bonuses":[
{ "type": "CREATURE_GROWTH", "val": -50, "valueType":"PERCENT_TO_BASE", "subtype":6, "propagator": "VISITED_TOWN_AND_VISITOR" }]

Then building castle will lead to double growth, but for 7th level growth will be reduced by 50% back to 1.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 01, 2022 01:15 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 01:15, 01 Jun 2022.

That is a useful int but may be tat it will have unintended side effects (like halving possible weeks of and the like)

I think maybe I will just ty to make the castle with custom scripting give +100% growth to levels "0-5" (so 1 to 6) instead of just doubling everything, so it just doesn't accept faerie dragons. Good enough? Can that work?
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Never changing = never improving

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baronus
baronus


Promising
Legendary Hero
posted June 01, 2022 02:23 PM

But it ruined city growth. We have 50% citadel and 100% castle. Growth 1 not working for citadel if it additionally would not work for castle its completly cancelling these 2 buildings... Better solution is 2-4 for 7lvl.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 01, 2022 11:03 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 23:05, 01 Jun 2022.

They would not be useless, they would still work for all other creatures.

But oh well. There is still a way to fix it as you say.

I could actually make both "Pixie Dragons" (yellow) and "Sprite Dragons" (blue). Both being recolors and un-upgraded forms of Faerie Dragon, first with less magic casts and stats and second still having less HP than the neutral final form. This will make Faerie Dragon as just a neutral 3rd upgrade (maybe just available in Magic Forest) while preserving "Normal creature growth"

But H4 has Black Dragons and Mantis with just one weekly without issues...

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Never changing = never improving

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baronus
baronus


Promising
Legendary Hero
posted June 02, 2022 09:47 AM

But its still balancing problem because 7lvl is near 50% power of army. One powerfull unit for begin its better than 1 for other castles. For me better solution is 4 for 7 lvl to have 2,3,4 growth. But its my way. Proportionally growth by fort citadel castle is a very good idea...

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