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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Wisdom - A good skill or mandatory nuisance?
Thread: Wisdom - A good skill or mandatory nuisance? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Hourglass
Hourglass


Supreme Hero
posted June 16, 2022 04:40 PM

Poll Question:
Wisdom - A good skill or mandatory nuisance?

How the community actually feels about the Wisdom secondary skill?

Is Wisdom generally been seen as a good skill that gives you access to the mightiest spells in the game, or does it rather feel like something that you basically always need to get in order to not put you in a very disadvantageous position?

I think it's obviously a bad idea to be able to learn and use high level spells without any investments, but I would say the later installments tackled this problem slightly better than Homm3 did. But what do you think?

Also, how do you guys feel about Wisdom mechanics in the game overall? Was it a mistake to make certain that in some levels, a might hero will always try learning Wisdom, or is this good as it is?

How do you feel about all Magic heroes (except for most Necromancers) having Wisdom as a starting skill? Was it a good idea, or should there have been more exceptions to this rule?



Responses:
Wisdom is great as it is!
There are some problems with it, but overall it's good
It's something in-between
It mostly feels problematic, but it's not awful
Wisdom is a terribly designed skill!
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 16, 2022 06:21 PM

I have had similar thoughts myself.

I consider Wisdom a must-have skill, up there with Earth Magic and Logistics. (I know you don't need it with the tomes and Spellbinder's Hat, but you can't really rely on those.)

I think Wisdom as a skill is quite annoying and boring, perhaps a better solution would have been something like:
Level 3 spells from hero level 10
Level 4 spells from hero level 15
Level 5 spells from hero level 20 (could be customizeable.)

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Zaio-Baio
Zaio-Baio


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 16, 2022 10:02 PM

On maps where you have access to high level spells wisdom is a must have, on maps where you dont its useless. Might heroes will get wisdom offered on level up at least once every 6 levels. So if you need it - pick it and if you dont need it ignore it. I think balance wise the skill is fine.

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LordCameron
LordCameron


Known Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
posted June 17, 2022 02:49 AM

I had a crazy rebalance idea for Wisdom. Make each level take up an entire skill slot.

More realistically I'd like to see it be a lot rarer probably.

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 17, 2022 03:19 AM
Edited by NimoStar at 16:44, 17 Jun 2022.

It would be better with 5-tier skills.

You need Basic Wisdom to learn level 1 spells and Grandmaster Wisdom for level 5.
This way also Might heroes would be less dominant since they would need to get Wisdom to learn spells.

As it stands,
Heroes starting with wisdom may be counting it as useless early on because you need several turns to get level 3 mage guild.

Also, for Fortress for example, upgrding the wisdom over basic is useless,since they don't have acess to mage guild over level 3 sadly.
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 17, 2022 08:15 AM

Fortress really should have had Mage Guild 4.
Why does witches get so much power and knowledge, when they get no spells. But they have the highest chance of learning Eagle Eye, so they can learn spells through that, riiight...

Heroes starting with basic or even advanced Wisdom usually does'nt have any use for the skill, for a while.

Also a bit weird how some heroes start with level 3 or 4 spells without having enough Wisdom.

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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted June 17, 2022 09:14 AM

Zaio-Baio said:
On maps where you have access to high level spells wisdom is a must have, on maps where you dont its useless. Might heroes will get wisdom offered on level up at least once every 6 levels. So if you need it - pick it and if you dont need it ignore it. I think balance wise the skill is fine.


A very good! Excellent

Yes an example of Water skill is good enough in some 3D0 maps, also one HotA map was copied from Islands and Caves (RoE), I think.. Warlords is also one good example, so your choice skill.. But Tactics-Logistics-Water are main skill in Warlords.. Islands and Caves map is more funny.. If your friends, etc don't banned Water, when random mayn't receive a skill.. So noobs can learn them maps.. WoG is more merciless, when you can remove your Wisdom for a 2000gold fee, when you've all spells, you remove useless skills.. If nice HotA is too..
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baronus
baronus


Legendary Hero
posted June 17, 2022 07:33 PM

I prefer H4 version. Before it was to easy to have powerfull magic all schools. All class is nearly the same. In H4 you feel that mage is not a knight!

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted June 17, 2022 08:39 PM
Edited by NimoStar at 01:45, 18 Jun 2022.

Ah yes. The H3 system could also be reformed with grandmaster earth, wind, fire etc. that you need for the spells with each school. This could either compliment, or replace the aforementioned "grandmaster wisdom" system. I still have a place in my heart for the H3 system like "yes, you can technically know this spell but you suck at it because you don't have the necessary competences to make it work". In h4 if you know a spell and it isn't a scroll or wand, you *will* develop that school of magic, otherwise you coudn't learn it.

To separate H3 magic schools would require having significant number of more spells tho. I like Alex's extra spells plugin.
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted June 17, 2022 09:53 PM

Elemental schools being too similar is also because of all the damage spells. You don't need Air Magic to cast Chain Lightning or Earth Magic to cast Implosion or Meteor Shower, you will probably spam them anyway, especially if you have the Air or Earth orb...
I'm not exactly sure how, but the damage spells should have been done differently.
Maybe costing 50% or 100% more mana if you don't have the correct magic school, but that will probably just make Air and Earth Magic even more mandatory.

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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted June 18, 2022 04:35 AM

RerryR's ACM, you can play GM Wisdom.

Yes I like H4

But my 8 Mighty Kings (HotA) is awesome map, if you choose some Water, you can't play Earth with, thus Eagle Eye, other Fortress and Necropolis, you can learn random spells. Slow as a cum, why? When HotA comes!? I can't make a WoG, if must, Fortress for Eagle Eye with the Grail Much better is Factory and Cove, thus culture.. Now you see that H3 can do such..
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heymlich
heymlich


Famous Hero
posted July 31, 2022 08:22 PM

baronus said:
I prefer H4 version.



Although I don't like H4 that much, the spell system there is clearly better.

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 21, 2022 11:54 PM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 23:55, 21 Sep 2022.

I want more votes for this poll.

I had an idea regarding Wisdom:
Since all heroes need it anyway and it takes up a precious skill slot, why not just remove it entirely and let all heroes learn level 1-5 spells without it?
It will make AI better and it will even buff skills like Eagle Eye and Scholar, that won't rely on Wisdom anymore. It will free a skill slot to make more interesting hero builds, instead of a skill you are forced to have, that does'nt feel like it's doing much anyway.

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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted September 22, 2022 02:20 AM

I like Wisdom system more then developing each school but I agree that 5 levels and being required even for the basic spells would be even better.
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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 22, 2022 05:54 AM

@Phoenix4ever

Play HUMAN AI in WoG/ERA..

I know one map demands Scholar or you leave 2x Tower plus Giant dwelling and neutral Giants.. You play 1x Castle and Angel dwelling to beat the Tower by Diplomacy.. Players love his map..

EDIT

Scout with Scholar, chaining heroes, etc are the best possible in Tower.. PRO can see and find his philosophical game.. Because he built a solid..
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Drakon-Deus
Drakon-Deus


Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
posted September 22, 2022 07:07 AM
Edited by Drakon-Deus at 07:13, 22 Sep 2022.

bloodsucker said:
I like Wisdom system more then developing each school but I agree that 5 levels and being required even for the basic spells would be even better.


Idem.

At first I disliked the system with learning each magic school from basic to grandmaster in Heroes IV, but now I think it was really a good alternative.

I chose the second option of the poll. Wisdom is not bad but there are problems with it.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 22, 2022 07:31 AM

Yes, H4 system is obviously better.

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DarkAtom
DarkAtom


Adventuring Hero
posted September 23, 2022 04:07 AM

Phoenix4ever said:
I had an idea regarding Wisdom:
Since all heroes need it anyway and it takes up a precious skill slot, why not just remove it entirely and let all heroes learn level 1-5 spells without it?


That would just move the problem back to Heroes I (which is the reason why Wisdom was created in the first place). You recruit a level 1 Barbarian, he learns Armageddon instantly, take 1 fast troop and attack an incoming enemy. And suddenly, if you have 25000 gold you can cast 10 Armageddons before attacking with the main army. Not to mention level 1 Barbarians teleporting with Dimension Door, or level 1 Barbarians coming with a fast troop, berserking your fastest troop on the first round and then watching you scream how you lose your big stack of shooters.

Personally, I would be in favor of heroes being able to learn high level spells when thet level up (level 3 spells at lvl 5, level 4 spells at lvl 10, level 5 spells at lvl 15, as an example). The system in H4 is cool, but it would only make magic schools even more mandatory (otherwise you literally can't even learn all the useful spells that are level 3 and above).
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"If you get scared of doing what's right you might as well lay down and die" - Wulfstan, Heroes of Might and Magic V: Hammers of Fate

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted September 23, 2022 08:22 AM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 08:24, 23 Sep 2022.

Maybe, but that level 1 Barbarian probably won't have much mana or power and Armageddon has always been a cheat, to "hide it away" behind Advanced Wisdom, does'nt make Armageddon less of a cheat. (I have considered removing Arma many times myself.)

Heroes 4 approach is not good imo, then you would be pretty much forced to get almost all magic schools.

Yeah if possible level 3 spells at level 5 or 10
Level 4 at 10 or 15
Level 5 at 15 or 20 could have been interesting.

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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted September 23, 2022 09:54 AM

At first I thought 200 spells, and of them you will find rarer spells. An example football or MTG cards, you find some rare. But I chose 6 Secondary Skills. Now it looks good. Yeah I found Altar of Wishes.. You know my thread My opinion and wish about the Heroes 8 I've experienced with H4 and H2.. So H4 is a very good, when you play your alliance, and you want to get a Town Gate (TP) or Vampiric Touch or Mass Slow.. You visit and fight against Magi or Monks for random scrolls. I quoted "The hero can cast the specified spell at a spell point cost that is half the spell's normal cost." I tried to get a rare spell Ok fun.. 6 Secondary Skills do your story is end..
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