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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: Crimson Couatl VS Juggernaut (HotA)
Thread: Crimson Couatl VS Juggernaut (HotA)
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 18, 2024 09:10 PM

Poll Question:
Crimson Couatl VS Juggernaut (HotA)

Which of Factory's mighty level 7 units do you prefer and why?

Responses:
Crimson Couatl
Juggernaut
I love both
I hate both
I'm not sure yet
 View Results!

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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 18, 2024 09:15 PM

But I will make best level 7 vs HotA creatures.. Now's level 1.. You ruined me
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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 18, 2024 09:26 PM

Sorry, about that Ghost, guess I was a little too fast.

Btw. to anyone interested:
In the map editor, if you have a random town, right click on the town and under buildings, you can choose if Factory should be allowed to build "Second Level 7 Creature Generator". (This is for Juggernauts.)

So if you are like me and prefer Factory only having 1 level 7 unit, you can disable Juggernauts here.
This makes the economy in town much more reasonable and the unit line-up less clunky.

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FirePaladin
FirePaladin


Legendary Hero
DoR Modder
posted January 18, 2024 11:20 PM
Edited by FirePaladin at 23:21, 18 Jan 2024.

I find it highly ironic and sad that the creature that more or less represents the town (and without which it loses so much identity) is so inconvenient to build, and disabling it can be a reasonable thing from a gameplay perspective.
Yes, I know, Nature and Tech and all, but it started with Tech and it was all about adding Tech to the game.
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Enshackling time itself, heralds of the Ancients among their heat-depleted land.... Who could they be, who could rally the beings of the East and the North and control the mortals' fate?

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 18, 2024 11:37 PM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 23:40, 18 Jan 2024.

Yeah I think I prefer Factory without dreadnoughts and juggernauts.
The town is far too expensive and clunky, when they are around.
They are also very slow, so unless you cast Teleport or at least Advanced Haste or Advanced Prayer or you let the enemy come to them, they won't see much action.

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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 19, 2024 12:40 AM

Hmm Ok do you wait for Sleipnir-like creature? It fits VCMI.. Because Sleipnir* isn't from MM.. But I've an old magazine, JVC said HoMM isn't MM, even if he used partly.. Ok we go to this thing.. Great info about mapeditor, yes mapmaker notices it.. And HotA crew may be young players, so they've energy.. You're already old, thus you don't invent that why slow creatures yet, but I think Hydras and Behemoths also weak Bone/Ghost Dragons.. I miss 4 Phoenixes..

*Sleipnir is possibly the 'fastest monster' in the world, courtesy of its eight-legs that carried the enchanted gigantic horse across the land, sea, and even air.
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bloodsucker
bloodsucker


Legendary Hero
posted January 19, 2024 02:55 PM

phoenix4ever said:
Which of Factory's mighty level 7 units do you prefer and why?
None of the above, my favorite might level 7 unit is the Quetzalcoatl and I don't care about anything else but his aesthetics.
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 19, 2024 03:06 PM

Well he is not in the game, though you can go play Final Fantasy 8, 14, 15 or something like that...

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NimoStar
NimoStar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
posted January 19, 2024 03:09 PM

Rainbow Couatl shoudnt be the upgraded one and desaturated the unupgraded one, you can't change my mind...

But, I thought the damage immunity ability was poorly designed.

The heat ray was cooler (pun intended... maybe)
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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted January 19, 2024 03:28 PM

Despite Couatls being easier to get and utilise I prefer the Jugger-/Dreads. Just for being more fun with being repairable and the laser beam. Despite the rainbow Couatl's beautiful appearance and the lore behind it I can't help but find it out of place in Factory's lineup sometimes.
On top of that Couatls feel like yet another dragon which aren't my favourite type of creatures anyway.


phoenix4ever said:

This makes the economy in town much more reasonable and the unit line-up less clunky.


Depending on map and other game specifics this might make Factory the worst town in the game.

What do you mean by clunky?

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 19, 2024 08:13 PM

Factory might already be the worst town in the game.
Look at their cost, a full weeks growth of creatures cost 35770 gold + 6 crystals.
Second most expensive is Conflux with 31100 and + 3 mercury. So Factory makes even Conflux look cheap and then we haven't even begin to talk about buying all the creature buildings in the first place...

Factory's level 6 units have a pretty abuseable ability, but 45 HP?, that's just pathetic.
Maybe armadillos could have had some kinda minor ability.
Or some units could just have had better stats or higher growth instead of a second level 7, that completely ruins your economy.

Factory is clunky because it has 8 units, but you have only room for 7.
If you click the "buy all" button at Factory it won't work, because there is no space for all the units.

I did'nt like the idea of 2 level 7 units, when it was presented to me years ago and sadly I was right, as the result is too expensive and too clunky.

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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 19, 2024 09:21 PM

Why you are always opponent or antagonist? When chess openings, it can be find a new opening and variation.. Learn it, or your player named Viktor Korchnoi finds your weak point, and he plays it rerun again.. I chose very OP Factory beings stepped/got in MWM map..

I waited for 90hp, and 9 speed.. But 45hp.. I've not disappointed.. And 7lvl creatures are near Phoenix level.. Good exploids, etc But I'm not sure yet.. Which one is the best!

Ok Phoenix4ever..
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gatecrasher
gatecrasher


Famous Hero
posted January 19, 2024 10:03 PM
Edited by gatecrasher at 22:07, 19 Jan 2024.

Phoenix4ever said:
Factory is clunky because it has 8 units, but you have only room for 7.
If you click the "buy all" button at Factory it won't work, because there is no space for all the units.



Please after all these years watch some videos on how to play the game already. Who would just "buy all"? Every town has creatures less worthwhile. In most cases it doesn't make sense to have low tier creatures in your army at later stages of the game (lower Attack/Defense rating per HP). Plus you normally complement your army from banks, pandoras, diplo, other towns, external dwellings....
Amassing power stacks is how you grow your army. In order to avoid losses to these there's several tactics involving splitting stacks stacks + you need to sacrifice fodder stacks, block/lure/take up retals with 1-stacks etc. which is way you usually wouldn't set out with a "unspreadable" 7-slot army before the final fight. Heck, there are even fights you'll fare better in after parking part of your army in garrisons/mines/secondary heroes. Even Autocombat knows this.

Given you don't do hero chaining with no free slots what do you do with creatures won/being offered?

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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 19, 2024 10:26 PM

I have very few creature banks in my map, besides you always get downgraded creatures as rewards from creature banks, so there is almost never room for them anyway.
Pandoras Boxes with creatures does not exist in my map, so I mostly roll with starting town creatures. Besides when you have TP and Advanced Earth, you can always go back and get more army.
Another bonus when you stick to town creatures is that you always have good morale.

Besides it makes no sense thematically, you want Inferno to run around with Angels? Lol the Arch Devils would look to kill the Angels the moment they turn their back on them.
Or Dungeon to accept Giants, LOL R.I.P. Giants.

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Hourglass
Hourglass


Supreme Hero
posted January 20, 2024 12:29 AM

Phoenix4ever said:
I was right, as the result is too expensive and too clunky.
I'm sorry, but I remember you saying the town would be OP no matter what

I agree the Dreadnoughts are currently too hard to build. Not necessary from the whole game perspective, but the nature path is more easily achievable on the week 1, so to optimally play Factory, it's more wise building the whole nature path during the first week, and thus there are no real "choice", unless the map really pushes you towards the mechs.

That being said, it's good to keep in mind there will be changes, Cove received changes at least 6 years after it's release if I'm not mistaken. Playing Factory has been fun, and that's mostly what matters. I'm not having issues of closing in the solo maps, so it's not like the town is broken and underpowered. And in MP, there's always the town trade anyway.

Phoenix4ever said:

Factory is clunky because it has 8 units, but you have only room for 7.
If you click the "buy all" button at Factory it won't work, because there is no space for all the units.

Not really sure why one would care of such thing in the first place. Just like with other towns, certain units just don't scale well to the end game, and their usage is within the early game. I'm currently having a game that uses the mechs to make a wall so the engineers and gunslingers behind them cannot be reached. The engineers split into few stacks can simply repair the mechs, and the enemy keeps bashing their heads on a wall that won't break. It's not like there would be a room for other creatures anyway.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 20, 2024 12:36 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 00:36, 20 Jan 2024.

Crimson Couatls have pretty high tactical value, but they aren't good damage dealers. You'll also need clone or frenzy to make most use of them. Mercenaries can't learn Water Magic however, and most people would pick Dury or Henrietta as main.

Robots are cool, but their awful speed makes them undesireable. I really can't recall a game where they actually had a big impact on the battle result. Now if they could move&use their ability in one turn, that would make things very different.

Both of their dwellings need way too much Crystal.
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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 20, 2024 01:29 AM

@Phoenix4ever

I don't know yet, I can't find theirs.. I analyzed HotA engine.. You said Ring of the Magi is poor, but Interference.. Thus I accept Interference.. Of course, my friend isn't Interference.. I like more an original 3DO or improved WoG, but you can't find why Ring of the Magi.. Only easier HotA, good exploration to you, scout Phoenix4ever or to cry for advanced H4, thus the future.. I talked about Ring of the Magi.. Impossible game..

And I will make best level 7 vs HotA creatures too.. In about 7 weeks late.. Soon best level 2 vs HotA creatures.. Then I add your thread.. I think players are still inexperienced.. Later on players know the answer..
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Phoenix4ever
Phoenix4ever


Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 20, 2024 08:08 AM
Edited by Phoenix4ever at 08:14, 20 Jan 2024.

@Hourglass Yeah I thought Factory would be OP, with 2 level 7's, but I did'nt expect it to be THAT expensive.
With Cove I felt they went a little over the top and made most of the creatures very strong and Cove is pretty expensive, it is however very cheap when compared to Factory. Every town is very cheap when compared to Factory!

So yeah to sum it up, Factory does'nt seem that good when they spread the power of the units on 8 units, it becomes very expensive and hard to use all the units effectively.

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Ghost
Ghost


Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
posted January 25, 2024 03:24 AM

Curse! Mass Slow is very bad idea.. I can't shoot with bow nor melee against Crimson Couatls.. I casted Slow, because I don't know them.. Legion means I met Crimson Couatl again, I casted Prayer, and then Shield or Haste.. But stupid Crimson Couatl chose my Grand Elves, so I lost only 23 from 20 Crimson Couatls.. It need Cat Reflexes (H4) or Counterstrike.. Ok Crimson Couatls seem like Sanctuary (H4 spell) beings.. I know how.. Its also OP.. I research and analyze it yet.. I don't play Factory yet.. Random HoMM doesn't give me yet.. First I always play map or create map, it after campaign, etc Why? If you create your map, you learn it much better than campaign, etc It effects OP.. Try yourself!!
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