|
| Thread: H3: Design discussion | |
|
purerogue3
Hired Hero
|
posted August 11, 2024 05:46 PM |
|
|
H3: Design discussion
*
One of the small things you notice is why do Air Shield and Shield not have specialists whilst Stoneskin and Precision do?
The former is a shield looking for a hammer, whilst the later is -yes- a just a shield and a hammer.
One is a specialized solution, the other a tool which you may choose to wield.
The first would make you find shooters/melee-ers while the second can be used generally or selected purposefully.
**
Scholar, Scouting, Estates and possibly Eagle Eye and Diplomacy are suporting hero skills.
Was there such a need in H1-2?
If you eliminate them you would still have phantom role heroes - why not give them legit skills?
The reject skill button solves all this.
(or you could automate it all)
Please share your heroes-related musings.
|
|
purerogue3
Hired Hero
|
|
posted August 17, 2024 01:02 AM |
|
|
I've succumbed and decided to not use the whole scholar mechanism along with the skill.
So if you want to learn the spell, you have to go to the town/shrine yourself, or trade the scroll.
Eagle eye is not available as a hero spec. but works at 100% up to lvl.5
No tomes, only lvl1-2 all-spell scrolls.
Scouting is, regretably, banned as a skill as it would be the only non-main sec.skill left (estates already banned exc. for hero spec)
Thus, there are now no non-main hero paths - the only task of ferrying troops around can be done by 'anyone', who can be nameless or an aspiring hero.
But no more of this secondary-hero crap.
|
|
Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted August 17, 2024 08:05 AM |
|
|
|
So you are saying you banned Scholar, Scouting and Estates, because they are not "main hero potential"?
|
|
purerogue3
Hired Hero
|
|
posted August 17, 2024 05:56 PM |
|
|
Do you really enjoy nurturing a secondary just so he/she can make sure everybody has the same spells?
Diplomacy is actually secondary considering surrendering is never used, but if you get it you go all generous and letting the secondary slot slide, until no body wants to join you, then you get pissy that it behaves so erratically.
|
|
Phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
|
|
posted August 17, 2024 06:40 PM |
|
|
I was just asking you a question, cause I was'nt sure I understood your second post right.
Be aware that you mess up towns economy, by removing Estates though. I know you probably don't want Estates on a main hero, but they are still part of the towns economy.
Scholar just ruins Eagle Eye, which is already useless.
But personally I think there are much worse skills than Scholar, even on a main hero.
But you can do whatever you want, just like I do. 
|
|
Hourglass
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted August 17, 2024 06:45 PM |
|
|
purerogue3 said:
*
One of the small things you notice is why do Air Shield and Shield not have specialists whilst Stoneskin and Precision do?
The former is a shield looking for a hammer, whilst the later is -yes- a just a shield and a hammer.
One is a specialized solution, the other a tool which you may choose to wield.
The first would make you find shooters/melee-ers while the second can be used generally or selected purposefully.
Air shield btw has a specialist in Hota. Other than that, I'm no sure what you really meant by this? Shield is a great spell, Air shield and especially Predicion bad spells, and Stone skin is pretty okay.
purerogue3 said:
Scholar, Scouting, Estates and possibly Eagle Eye and Diplomacy are suporting hero skills.
Was there such a need in H1-2?
If you eliminate them you would still have phantom role heroes - why not give them legit skills?
The reject skill button solves all this.
(or you could automate it all)
Scouting, Estates, Diplomacy and Eagle Eye are all part of Homm2. Scholar is a "newcomer" of the bunch, perhaps intended to have proper replacement for Eagle Eye which they ended up including anyway. Eagle Eye is basically a main hero skill btw, the battles are needed to be won in order to learn anything, so a secondary hero won't exactly stand it's ground against enemy main hero with actual spells.
The gameplay loop really prefers having multiple heroes and in order to really growth in power, it's makes most sense to center the experience toward one, perhaps couple of heroes. Therefore even the secondary hero skills are quite important, as the not so good heroes will obtain new ways of supporting your kindom.
|
|
purerogue3
Hired Hero
|
|
posted August 17, 2024 07:00 PM |
|
|
Hourglass said:
Air shield btw has a specialist in Hota. Other than that, I'm no sure what you really meant by this? Shield is a great spell, Air shield and especially Predicion bad spells, and Stone skin is pretty okay.
I saw. Think about it. Do you really want to play as hero that HOPES they will run into shooters? It gets very bland /single-minded don't you reckon?
Hourglass said:
Scouting, Estates, Diplomacy and Eagle Eye are all part of Homm2. Scholar is a "newcomer" of the bunch, perhaps intended to have proper replacement for Eagle Eye which they ended up including anyway. Eagle Eye is basically a main hero skill btw, the battles are needed to be won in order to learn anything, so a secondary hero won't exactly stand it's ground against enemy main hero with actual spells.
The gameplay loop really prefers having multiple heroes and in order to really growth in power, it's makes most sense to center the experience toward one, perhaps couple of heroes. Therefore even the secondary hero skills are quite important, as the not so good heroes will obtain new ways of supporting your kindom.
I'm aware. 'Secondary' heroes would be better under my regime because they are not living to be supportive. Because trading spells, uncovering tiles, and making money are very not important to the main point of the game. Just try it man, cut out the tedium.
Put it this way. Make a skill called "Backend" - it consists of trading spells, uncovering tiles, earning money. It might be a very good skill, even necessary for the $ (which is why estates shouldn't be there unless its level-linked) but do you enjoy playing it. White-stuff it sounds like work!
|
|
Hourglass
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted August 18, 2024 11:39 AM |
|
|
purerogue3 said:
I saw. Think about it. Do you really want to play as hero that HOPES they will run into shooters? It gets very bland /single-minded don't you reckon?
I think we might not share the view from the game, and that's obviously more than okay, you should always play and enjoy the game as you wish yourself.
Since there are so many heroes in the game, I would personally want as many unique heroes as possible, having around even the tiniest niche's that could possibly be filled. So that would mean specialists around Misfortune, Quicksand, Scholar, Pikemen etc.
Only the really great heroes in the game have powerful specialties and amazing secondary skills. They're the top heroes in the game, but they're followed by heroes that don't necessary have great specialties, but have good starting secondary skills instead. Not all heroes are treated equally, but they don't have to be, having heroes that are there just to fill a niche, make the other heroes stand out even more.
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted August 18, 2024 07:06 PM |
|
|
Yeah H2 was "different".. When players develop more might heroes.. H3 became magic in AB expansion.. No More in H4.. H2 and H4 are the same, but newer Tactics, Combat, etc thus HoMM 3.5 WoG.. H5 attempted yet another radical change, but bankruptcy.. Ubisoft took a place, and it looks like H2 and H4.. But old Tactics, etc have returned.. Estates is still valid in H4, thus level per percent.. and Capitol gets 1000g/day.. In H3 you get 4000g/day.. Ok H4 players develop more unit.. Evolution has found extinctions are Eagle Eye, Scholar, Artillery, Ballistics, and Scholar in H4.. And fifth might schoolar of Magic named Death, and then nerfed Sorcery and Necromancy..
If you want to Eagle Eye, etc You can make your walkthrough map.. A normal map is useless, thus hard work, when you are ready, you can conquer other towns.. RoE is the last Eagle Eye.. Thus Fear spell, when 1-8 Scholar skilled heroes have Fear.. You pick him/her, and enemy needed Eagle Eye to get a Fear spell.. So the last RoE campaign Catherine or Coronius.. But thelazy says "Coronius does not appear in the story text of any campaign levels." It's wrong or lying.. Thus Catherine or Coronius have Fear by random.. I've played.. But stupid bro deleted the campaign.. Thus we can't load game..
Remember Red Orb no longer in AB.. AI computer doesn't use Red Orb, but you can use it.. When Fear + Red Orb can play..
AlexSpl's new spells, but no same Fear..
Ok what we can do about Eagle Eye? Nothing.. Only walkthrough.. If HotA adds AlexSpl's new spells, you need Eagle Eye, if their rule is hidden spells.. Quite good evolution.. When Eagle Eye could have learn a Titan's Lightning Bolt, for example, but 5 level.. And new spells have many level 1-4.. One 1 or 2 levelled summon Sprite is very OP, IMO..
I'm sorry that I drank in 3 days.. Now I'm tired.. WTF Fear
____________
Fight MWMs - stand teach
|
|
purerogue3
Hired Hero
|
|
posted August 18, 2024 09:02 PM |
|
|
Fear is morale on steroids.
it works exactly the same way but somehow surpasses it. It does not consider it, but is like a *2 track morale, so sometimes you can even get hit with both (if morale is -ve).
Even if morale is very high, fear can still strike.
So I like it very much, I keep it and even treasure it.
Like a secret weapon vs high morale.
Nothing can stop fear. Excluding golems, undead, elementals.
Should fear check 'morale has no effect' or 'mind spell' ?
A titan cannot succumb to fear? Ha ha
|
|
Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
|
|
posted August 18, 2024 10:39 PM |
|
|
I'm not joking..
Install RoE engine, and then you play two times: https://heroesportal.net/en/maps/view/1927.. Don't play AB version, thus Fear is no longer in AB, SoD, and H3C.. So second time you meet 10k of Titans by AI.. It after you play Illusion world 2.. So the game crashes in 2 months.. Those combined do plauge OP.. And then all maps you meet legion of monsters from AIs.. Remember if you've H3 expansion or H3 HD from UbiSoft.. It doesn't work.. I buy a new computer in 2025.. I install RoE and H4GS.. Nice combination.. Another computer can play all H3 version..
I think players should fix crash bug.. So awesome AI gets 7xlegion..
But you can't experience from Eagle Eye.. Only some update version.. Losers played or play it..
Remember what? I beat almost all maps.. I wonder that mapmakers developed in expansion.. It must have Fear matter.. Do you understand? But their benefit, lesson, etc I don't interested in walkthough and non-heroes..
____________
Fight MWMs - stand teach
|
|
purerogue3
Hired Hero
|
|
posted August 18, 2024 10:58 PM |
|
|
|
You like new map challenges? One one I'll make one after I have done my HD Mods .. lol
|
|
purerogue3
Hired Hero
|
|
posted August 28, 2024 04:26 PM |
|
|
Diplomacy
Eliminate the army.ai.value*hero.att+def requirement.
Every stack has a small probability to join, increased slightly for low-level creatures and more for higher-level, if hero has diplomacy.
For example, lvl.7 never join for free anyhow, lvl.3 join 1/100, 4/100 with diplomacy.
4-creature.lvl+diplomacy >/= ->Free join
4-creature.lvl+(diplomacy*2) >/= ->paid join
No 'sympathy'! where aggressive.min=1 max=100
Add *hero.att/def/pow/knw or *hero.lvl to paid joiners formula to prevent "secondary skills" effect.
Those of you who have experienced Vampire joining you on Continentia or Giants joining in Forestria will know the feeling I am trying to recreate. And then the despair you realize you are playing barbarian your 1 spell pt will not clone the Vampires until Archipelago, then you play sorceress and never get the join..
Diplomacy is busted because 1.army size requirement 2.diplomacy Skill requirement. So i made it independent of each, but you would still get it because you get more frees and the possibility of paid joins.
~Maybe visions will have to be lvl.3
|
|
baronus
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted August 28, 2024 06:07 PM |
|
Edited by baronus at 18:09, 28 Aug 2024.
|
baronus
In general, Heroes 2 has tragically only a few skills 14 out of 8 slots. If we subtract useless or only for one faction, e.g. necromancy, there is always collecting the same skills! This is terrible. But it was a game that had a good system for the first time.
In Heroes III, the set was doubled, unfortunately adding more not very useful ones, so there are about 20 out of 8. Unfortunately, the maps are much larger and at the end of the game we enter empty numbers, which has a very bad effect on the end of the game and is not elegant. In Heroes 3, there should be 5 levels of skills like in Heroes 4, which would solve the problem because it is difficult to reach 40 levels. Only in the campaign, and a long one at that.
|
|
purerogue3
Hired Hero
|
|
posted August 28, 2024 06:23 PM |
|
|
Baron
I agree. There should be more skills not less. So I want to bring back scouting, scholar, estates etc. but in a good way..
The max map in HDmod is too small if only ground level, but I prefer ground to cavern as it is all the same, but hard to control template generator. I have seen the massive maps available in other versions, I want those, but can see it may be TOO large (=repetitive) but I believe the answer is map templates to control what you want and do not want (so not just maxing map size to get more of what you want).
|
|
purerogue3
Hired Hero
|
|
posted August 29, 2024 11:39 PM |
|
|
Remember when you had to pay per spell in KB? But you would still buy tonnes of the same spell because they were still a steal and the alternative was no magic, so you would get slaughtered.
In H3, let's say mage guilds only had one copy each (on a scroll) of the spell and you had to ration them across your heroes. You could scribe onto your spellbook only if you had Scholar, same with Shrines on the map. Eagle Eye also writes directly to their spellbook, so for anyone else, they wouldn't need one.
Scholar only LEARNS but cannot teach. So he can go around copying from everyone's scrolls and then returning them. Now having more than one copy of a basic spell is essential and you're probably not going to be selling them for 500 gold.
This new economy in repeatable spell scrolls encourages game dynamics between might/magic heroes as your lower-level 'army-multiplier' spells suit the might hero, whereas damage/power-dependent spells should be giving to the more proficient mage.
More spells of every level, especially lower ones, further encourage this new dynamic - if there were say 25 lvl.1 spells, your mage guild is only going to give you 1/5 of all spells. Especially for very context-specific spells - could be make or break.
Being spoilt for magic, with every new hero out of the box capable of blasting magic arrows/icebolts/lightning, alot of negative disposable-economy behaviour would be a thing of the past.
|
| |
|
|
