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| Thread: Should neutral creatures join a faction? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 29, 2024 11:42 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 10:13, 30 Oct 2024.
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If you had an idea that didn't involve modifications to the town-screens, I'd say go for it. But modifying existing town-screens is a lot of work, and may be why it's so rare to see.
Besides, the whole concept is held back by how rare neutral creature dwellings are. Mind you, if a neutral creature joins with a faction, it becomes a non-town faction creature, and thus, will appear on random maps in town zones, which might help solve the rarity issue.
As for which creatures go to which towns:
Peasant - Castle (external only)
Boar - Stronghold (either as an alternative upgrade for Wolf Rider, or a complete alternative for the Wolf line)
Rogue - Neutral
Leprechaun - Neutral
Mummy - Necropolis (alternative for the Wight line)
Nomad - Neutral
Sharpshooter - Rampart (alternative to the Pegasus line)
Satyr - Neutral
Steel Golem - Tower (upgrade for the Iron Golem at further upgraded Golem Factory)
Troll - Stronghold (alternative to the Roc line)
Gold Golem - Tower (already accounted for)
Fangarm - Neutral
Diamond Golem - Tower (already accounted for)
Enchanter - Tower (alternative to Naga line)
Being beyond regular level 7 creatures, the dragons would all be neutral.
As for the In the Wake of Gods creatures, I can't say I like most of them in their base state, but some do have potential if reworked:
Ghost - Necropolis (rework to be an upgrade to the Wraith)
Gorynych - Neutral
Nightmare - Inferno (alternative to the Efreeti line)
Sorceress - Neutral
Sylvan Centaur - Rampart (external only)
Werewolf - Neutral
Hell Steed - Inferno (rework to be upgrade for Nightmare)
Being beyond regular level 7 creatures, the Dracolich would be neutral.
Realistically, I think the best way to see these creatures used more is to give them the option of being produced inside towns.
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ice_ice_baby
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 02, 2024 08:35 PM |
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I can imagine Rogue, Nomad and/or Mummy in a potential new desert city. But the others should remain neutral forever.
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted December 04, 2024 09:37 AM |
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Good idea. Often on H1,2 we have these units on towns. New concept remove all and was back as neutrals. Better idea is to have alternatives...
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neo_czar
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 04, 2024 05:43 PM |
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Many neutral creatures fit a middle eastern type of faction (nomad, mummy, gold/diamond golem...)
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culgil
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 06, 2025 11:54 PM |
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Indeed, neutral units are rarely really useful, which has several reasons, one of which is they are harder to integrate into armies (morale and terrain penalty).
With many of you, I agree that SOME neutral units could be associated to a town like it is in Heroes 4, that means they are treated like other units of that town in all aspects (no morale and terrain penalty, also change portrait background), but are NOT recruitable in the town, only on adventure map.
Every town should have at least one associated unit, which means that some new such units would have to be created.
Castle: Peasant
Rampart: Satyr (HotA)
Tower: Gold & Diamond Golem
Necropolis: Mummy
Inferno: New unit, e.g. Succubus (see Alternative unit mod) or Nightmare (see WoG)
Dungeon: New unit, but not too strong one due to Portal of Summoning
Stronghold: Boar & Troll (Trolls were associated with Orcs in previous titles and also fit to Orcs and Ogres)
Fortress: New unit, e.g. Giant Frog or (Lizard) Shaman
Conflux: Leprechaun (HotA)? (has similar vibes like Faerie/Pixie) or New unit like Triton (see Alternative unit mod)
Cove (HotA): Rogue? (fits atmospherically, but Rogue graphic and animation are generally quite bad...) or New unit, e.g. Mermaid (announced for HotA)
Factory (HotA): Steel Golem (HotA)?
So, this requires really some new units, but would increase immersion without changing game balance too much. Remember the first Tarnum campaign, when you recruit Boars from the map? It would fit then. Same with Peasants and Castle etc.
SOME neutral units should always remain neutral, especially too strong ones: lvl 7+ Dragons, Nomads for mobility on Sand, and also Enchanters, Sharpshooters, Fangarms (HotA) with their super strong bonuses. I also understand Dracon and Gelu as special characters who recruit their own elite troops instead of interpreting e.g. Sharpshooters as Rampart units. Without Gelu, they would not support Rampart or actually not even exit.
In line with this, heroes with upgrade/convert ability should always be campaign heroes, because it will never be consistently viable in normal play to upgrade neutrals. Of course, we can imagine a Castle hero upgrading Peasants into Swordsmen or a Tower hero upgrading all Golems to Diamond Golems. Even more unusual features would be a Necro hero raising Mummies instead of Skeletons (but conflict with set artifact) or an Inferno heroine demonfarming Succubus.
About alternative units (like in Alternative units mod and forthcoming DoR): this is a completely different mechanic, which requires changes in town screens, RMG, and town and unit balance, so it should be discussed separately.
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Floribert
Hired Hero
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posted February 11, 2025 09:43 AM |
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I like the idea that dwellings of some neutrals should be part of a biome in random templates (possible alignments are mentioned earlier).
As for some non-shooter neutrals like Rogue, Boars, Nomads and Mummies and the special golems it should be said: They all are boring to fight with. Same is true for all Elementals (esp. Water, Fire and Earth + upgr.). Maybe a rework could bring some impetus.
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