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| Thread: Should neutral creatures join a faction? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Star_mage
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 26, 2024 05:38 PM |
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Poll Question:
Should neutral creatures join a faction?
Hi,
Do you think the neutral creatures should eventually join an existing or new faction, potentially hinting at future content? Or would it be better if they stayed neutral permanently?
A third option could also work: perhaps certain neutrals (like peasants) should always remain independent.
Even if some neutrals become part of a faction, we’d still have new neutral units introduced, so there would always be a variety of creatures in that category.
What are your suggestions? Which neutral creatures (including those from WoG and HotA) should be assigned to which factions (including those in HotA and VCMI) and which ones should not?
*I did not include VCMI neutral creatures because they are too many
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LordCameron
Known Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
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posted October 26, 2024 07:10 PM |
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I want most or all neutrals to stay neutral, but it would be neat to see something done with them all the same. Like a rare artifact or building which allows at least some of them to upgrade.
I'd also like to see trolls and boars reworked to be much closer to their Homm II incarnations. Give trolls a ranged option, make them look mystical instead of ugly, and kick those riders off the boars.
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What are Homm Songs based on?
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted October 26, 2024 07:26 PM |
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I don't think I want them to join existing factions, but at least giving them a native terrain and perhaps improving their growth a bit, would make them more attractive. Also Gold and Diamond Golems deserve speed 6.
Not many of them are worth picking up at the moment.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted October 26, 2024 08:12 PM |
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Yes neutrals belonged to neutral world, but partly town, etc An example of H4 copied MTG, Sea Monster belongs to Stronghold, but no dwelling nor town.. Mega Dragon too.. I like MTG system, when Supreme Archangel could be Castle and Tower.. Multicoloured allied  So you get a good morale.. The next only dwelling creatures in H4.. More interested in rare creatures like Ghost (WoG/ERA).. So how to join it?! Diplomacy effect can be different, when Sea Monster is a Diplomacy immune, but no Mega Dragon.. Another creature accepts Charm*..
*https://mightandmagic.fandom.com/wiki/Charm_(H4)
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 26, 2024 09:44 PM |
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LordCameron said:
I'd also like to see trolls and boars reworked to be much closer to their Homm II incarnations. Give trolls a ranged option, make them look mystical instead of ugly, and kick those riders off the boars.
Agreed, trolls are much more fun as shooters. The Cyclopes in Homm3 kind of stole their role in the stronghold lineup.
And yes, boars were cooler than the boar riders (although the latter are more funny  )
To add to what Ghost said, yeah, it was interesting that in Homm4 the neutrals technically belonged to one of the factions, though you still couldn't get them in cities, except Preserve that had the Creature Portal.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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LordCameron
Known Hero
Veteran of the Succession Wars
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posted October 27, 2024 02:13 AM |
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To add further to Ghost's MTG idea, kick the rider off the boar, unless they are recruited by a Stronghold hero. Or maybe visit a stronghold town and combine with a goblin. That could be cool. Probably need a buff if that was the case. And then you could add neutral wolves into the wild as well.
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What are Homm Songs based on?
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LordInsane
Known Hero
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posted October 27, 2024 03:10 AM |
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In regards to suggestions for neutrals that should be part of a faction while remaining un-recruitable in their towns, I guess one fairly obvious example would be the Golems being aligned to Tower. HotA's Steel Golem may not be recruitable (yet, hopefully), but Gold and Diamond Golems are even recruited from an external Tower dwelling.
I guess aligning Mummies to Necropolis could be appropriate. H2 nod, shared undeath. Of course, the undeath does mean the morale impact is negated in regards to the aligning faction.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 27, 2024 08:29 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 08:55, 27 Oct 2024.
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LordInsane said:
In regards to suggestions for neutrals that should be part of a faction while remaining un-recruitable in their towns, I guess one fairly obvious example would be the Golems being aligned to Tower. HotA's Steel Golem may not be recruitable (yet, hopefully), but Gold and Diamond Golems are even recruited from an external Tower dwelling.
I guess aligning Mummies to Necropolis could be appropriate. H2 nod, shared undeath. Of course, the undeath does mean the morale impact is negated in regards to the aligning faction.
Sharpshooters for Rampart (Gelu), and Enchanters for Tower (Dracon) are also pretty obvious choices.
Honestly though, I'm okay with splitting the difference, and having some neutrals be faction-aligned, while others are completely neutral.
As to the boar specifically, it's a weird one. It was with the Wizards in H2, while in H3 it would seem to be leaning towards Stronghold, except that its dwelling looks more suited to Rampart (specifically, the Boar Glen has more than a passing similarity to the Unicorn Glade).
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Star_mage
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 27, 2024 12:44 PM |
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Thank you for the interesting answers! (Though the poll isn't over yet.)
To clarify, when I suggested neutrals joining a faction, I meant the full treatment: an alternative building, an upgrade, a second upgrade (one can dream! 😄 , and a dedicated hero (which most already have).
For example, Sharpshooters and Enchanters seem like obvious candidates.
On that note, Enchanter's Hollow seems mismatched with the creature’s character. It looks more like a humble shelter than a home for a sophisticated blue-armored wizard. With its color and armor, Enchanters appear more refined, but their dwelling gives the impression that they were supposed to be like a Tom Bombadil figure from the Tolkien universe.
What if we had a system where specific neutrals could be ‘converted’ into units for your faction? Here’s an idea:
Basic critter creatures: Horses, Wolves, Boars, Bears, Stags, Spiders etc.
Mythological creatures: Griffins, pegasi, unicorns, hydras, etc.
Humanoid tribes: humans, elves, orcs, goblins, trolls, etc.
A hero could transform these creatures into faction-aligned units by spending resources and combining with specific units. For example:
A Peasant could be upgraded to a Pikeman by a Pikeman specialist + gold.
A Peasant could be upgraded to a Crusader by a Crusader specialist + more gold.
A Peasant could be upgraded to a Mage by a Mage specialist + gold and gems.
A Peasant could be transformed into an undead unit (Skeleton, Ghost, or Vampire) by a Necromancer.
A Peasant and a Horse could combine to form a Cavalier by a Cavalier specialist + gold.
A Goblin and a Wolf could combine to form a Wolf Rider by a wolf rider specialist + gold.
A Peasant could also be upgraded to a human unit unique to each faction—for example, a Warlock’s human for Dungeon or a Barbarian’s human for Stronghold (=> Berserker)—addressing the gap where we have human heroes but no human units in certain factions.
Similarly, a Griffin could be upgraded to either an Erathian Griffin through a Castle Griffin specialist (with gold) or an AvLee Griffin through a Rampart Griffin specialist (with gold). This approach would allow natural creatures to join different factions, similar to Heroes 4.
Of course, a Griffin could be transformed into an undead variant, similar to undead dragons.
What do you think about this fluidity? Or should the game stay more rigid in terms of faction alignments?
This approach would also work well with your ideas. Depending on the hero type, a Troll could be upgraded to fit different roles—either as a ranged unit, a melee unit, or even a magic-oriented unit.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 27, 2024 07:29 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 09:24, 28 Oct 2024.
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If changing something includes modifying town-screen animations, it's probably going to be too much work. Not to say that having neutral creatures that can be upgraded differently by different faction is a bad idea (heavens, I've proposed it myself: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=40259), but it would be really awkward to try to work into an existing game.
In the same vein to Gelu and Dracon, it would be interesting to see a bunch of 'creature specialist' heroes, who don't provide a boost to their creature stats, but instead can upgrade the creature without any buildings.
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markmasters
Supreme Hero
Dragon of justice
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posted October 28, 2024 08:41 AM |
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I think reatures should remain neutral but with the option to have certain heroes and items ''convert'' them to your faction.
Like a Castle hero being able to convert peasants to militia as an upgrade.
an artefact that allows to polymerisation of different golems
stuff like that
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 28, 2024 09:18 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 09:22, 28 Oct 2024.
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Unless you can guarantee that a given random creature dwelling turns up on the map, said hero will be effectively useless most of the time. Gelu and Dracon are okay going the other way, since the units they convert are base units.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted October 28, 2024 01:50 PM |
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Star_mage said:
What do you think about this fluidity? Or should the game stay more rigid in terms of faction alignments?
I think it sounds like a lot of new complexity for very little meaningful return.
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markmasters
Supreme Hero
Dragon of justice
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posted October 28, 2024 02:05 PM |
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MattII said:
Unless you can guarantee that a given random creature dwelling turns up on the map, said hero will be effectively useless most of the time. Gelu and Dracon are okay going the other way, since the units they convert are base units.
I meant that all castle heroes have the option to ''upgrade'' peasants. or a hero that has it included in their own specialty (swordsman/militia specialist for example)
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 28, 2024 08:42 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 20:43, 28 Oct 2024.
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markmasters said:
I meant that all castle heroes have the option to ''upgrade'' peasants. or a hero that has it included in their own specialty (swordsman/militia specialist for example)
Still only of limited use unless you can guarantee that those dwellings will appear.
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Star_mage
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 29, 2024 04:48 PM |
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gatecrasher said:
I think it sounds like a lot of new complexity for very little meaningful return.
Are you suggesting that adding Sharpshooters in place of Dendroids or Enchanters instead of Nagas wouldn’t significantly affect the gameplay?
Or if a hero could upgrade recruited adventure creatures and had a skill to combine or upgrade them, then you wouldn’t have to limit yourself due to the army slot cap.
Typically, you wouldn’t choose a stack of 30 Boar Riders over 28 Wolf Raiders, so it’s rare to integrate neutral units. That’s my biggest concern: Enchanters and Sharpshooters are beautifully designed but seldom seen on maps, and even then, it’s usually inefficient to keep them in your lineup.
And don't let me get started on the Dragons. You are either too weak to fight them or too strong to keep 1 of them and give up on a stack of your army.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 29, 2024 07:55 PM |
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Star_mage said:
Are you suggesting that adding Sharpshooters in place of Dendroids or Enchanters instead of Nagas wouldn’t significantly affect the gameplay?
Sharpshooters are Level 4, so they'd replace Pegasi, not Dendroids.
But honestly, while I think this is a maybe good idea for a new game, trying to insert it into an existing one is too difficult to be worth bothering with.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted October 29, 2024 07:59 PM |
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It would do so but what for? What are you trying to achieve? Is this going to breathe fresh life into 25-years old HoMM3 by introducing new game mechanics/ new strategies? Or will it just add noise and dilute the experience the game is loves for?
Now from what I understand, some neutral creatures which came with HotA (Leprechauns, Satyrs) had been considered as potential alternative Rampart creatures originally. There were more such candidate creatures presented but the idea got scrapped.
Look, I had similar ideas in the past like neutral heroes who'd fight along neutral creatures on the map. After defeat they'd join you or you could hire them in map-object Taverns or some kind of Refugee Camp.
I didn't share the ideas because what do they offer other than "nice to habe"?
Someone's got to do the work. If you plan to mod, go ahead but other than that "more is more" kind of ideas are to be found all over the place deep inside of the forum archives.
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Star_mage
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 29, 2024 08:45 PM |
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Dear Gatecrasher and Matt,
Why teams like VCMI, HotA, and DoR are dedicated to improving a 25-year-old game. While Fiorin and I have a smaller project, there are actually more than ten teams actively enhancing various aspects of this game.
With all due respect, if you’re going to derail my threads with questions like, “Why would you do X on this old game?” I kindly ask that you refrain from participating.
My goal is to engage with open-minded people about the progress of this game. As long as this thread is active, we have the right to discuss any and all aspects of it.
I value your insights, but I would appreciate it if we could keep the conversation positive.
Remember, you can always play the vanilla game and its expansions, so questions that undermine our efforts are unnecessary.
Thank you for understanding.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted October 29, 2024 09:23 PM |
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If you are actually working on a project, fair enough. You didn't mention this anywhere here before though.
Anyway, you are right in the sense that neutral creatures live in the shadow except for maps and campaigns designed to make them shine.
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