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| Thread: Let's talk about commanders... | |
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Star_mage
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 27, 2024 01:01 PM |
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Let's talk about commanders...
In my view, Commanders significantly change the game’s dynamics—more than any other single mechanic. While new cities are visually impressive and exciting, they’re essentially just reskins of existing cities and require a lot of time to develop.
Commanders, on the other hand, introduce a much deeper change to gameplay, offering unique mechanics that shape battles in a fresh way.
Now that VCMI has improved AI (hopefully, you've been following the changelogs), I’m curious about your thoughts on Commanders. Do you use them regularly or none at all? Do you feel they’re balanced, or do they change the game too drastically? Alternatively, do they have a minimal impact and could be further developed?
Personally, I think Commanders are great, but there’s room for improvement in two areas:
1. Better graphics and better names
2. Maybe merge them with the heroes so that they directly represent them in battle (ala heroes 4)
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E1ChuRich
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 27, 2024 03:24 PM |
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What the hell is a commander
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted October 27, 2024 09:46 PM |
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I really do like them and they are one of the reasons I like WoG so much. They add another layer of RPG elements to the game.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 29, 2024 09:00 AM |
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I would have developed them differently from the start. Not so much into gaining HP and other nasty cheats, as petrify, blind, fear or death stare, but as magical support to other stacks. Like casting frenzy, raise attack/damage/defense, casting mass spells depending on hero class and so. But not being able to engage physically.
As they are now, especially if enhanced commander option is selected, they end as most powerful stack, capable of depleting thousand others, while AI can't see the threat and basically never attacks them unless they are the last standing up. That's why the majority of custom maps with commander build in lose interest once the commander is too much developed. There is no challenge left on AI side.
Some time ago, I made this video to show how nonsensical becomes a normally not winnable battle when the commander is on and you know how to use AI flaws. The commander wasn't even super strong.
Xyron battle
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted October 29, 2024 02:32 PM |
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I guess the main problem isn't commanders themselves but commander artifacts.
Ok, a developed commander with 4 Basic Skills is a uber creature but not that overpowered. When you get them from 10 of speed to 48 or 120 and do the same for the other Basic Skills, it's when you break the game.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 29, 2024 02:54 PM |
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Doesn't matter. AI doesn't know how to handle it - it considers the commander not enough strong to get out of castle, so once you neutralized the shooters and if your commander can shoot, no army can win over you, is just a matter of patience. Speed is not an important parameter, as ballistics gives you first move.
Now don't get me wrong, it can be fun to find such shortcuts and flaws. But once you did them several times, there is no challenge left.
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Star_mage
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 29, 2024 04:31 PM |
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Salamandre said:
As they are now, especially if enhanced commander option is selected, they end as most powerful stack, capable of depleting thousand others, while AI can't see the threat and basically never attacks them unless they are the last standing up. That's why the majority of custom maps with commander build in lose interest once the commander is too much developed. There is no challenge left on AI side.
I understand, but I believe this is related to ERA. I’ve moved away from ERA, so I can’t give an informed opinion there so I trust you; I'm a s cker for Bastion and Grove with Commanders.
In VCMI, leveling a Commander is challenging as they are often killed early on, especially when using Quick Battle. To avoid losing them, I need to manually complete every battle - though, once properly leveled, Commanders do become powerful assets.
Disclaimer: this is from a casual player’s perspective.
Also, isn’t the inability to engage physically similar to the role of a Hero?
I really like the range of unit types on the battlefield:
Hero
Normal Stacks (7)
War Machines (4)
Commander
Henchman
The AI still has room to grow, but I believe it’s headed in the right direction:
https://vcmi.eu/developers/AI/
In terms of comparison, I find Temple Guardians the weakest since Precision only benefits vulnerable shooters, and mana replenishment is often a lackluster skill. Succubus also tends to fall short in late-game scenarios.
The remaining Commanders, however, seem strong enough to stand on a similar level: Brute, Astral Spirit, Shaman, Ogre Leader, Paladin, Hierophant, and Soul Eater - though Soul Eater might hold a slight advantage overall.
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gatecrasher
Famous Hero
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posted October 29, 2024 10:03 PM |
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Well, where did the idea for commanders come from? It's the flawed concept of heroes physically partaking in battles from HoMM 4 ported to HoMM 3.
It's not only flawed from a balancing perspective but also from a "lore" perspective. The creature sprites you see on the battlefield represent armies as is indicated by the numbers.
HoMM4 heroes/commanders however are just one single being in actuality.
While a commander ploughing through armies is fun doing it the first few times it involves too much action superhero fantasy for my taste.
Maybe commanders should have been designed in a more "disposable" way.
You select one from your army and depending on which creature it is you get certain bonuses.
Levelling should be left to heroes which is what the game is about if you take the name into account.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted October 30, 2024 04:58 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Doesn't matter. AI doesn't know how to handle it.
I didn't knew about that exploit. I never choose Shooting Ability and I send him to the front, never waiting. It gives a Maximus leading army feel, if you get what I mean.
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted October 30, 2024 12:35 PM |
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Its better than h4 fighting Heroes improwment. Main sence is to have Might fighter. For Magic Heroes van be pod fashioned. We dont need mobile spellcasters. So I suggests 3 roads.
1 Mage- spells
2 Tactician - all creature boostera.
3 Mobile fighter.
Mobile fighter needs special skills similiar to H4
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted October 31, 2024 08:59 AM |
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bloodsucker said:
I guess the main problem isn't commanders themselves but commander artifacts.
Ok, a developed commander with 4 Basic Skills is a uber creature but not that overpowered. When you get them from 10 of speed to 48 or 120 and do the same for the other Basic Skills, it's when you break the game.
I would agree here. Commander artifact are a problem, because they allow to increase the stats by a huge amount on big maps.
Good that its not so difficult to mod them and change their scaling.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 31, 2024 05:27 PM |
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Removing or shrinking the artifacts bonuses would not be at all popular, after 15 years of use. This is the reason I said it should have been settled from the start.
Well, anyway, is not a big deal, you want a good ole balanced Heroes game : don't play with them. You want to own the map god-like, with no reloads needed : pick a commander. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
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