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Heroes Community > Heroes 3.5 - WoG and Beyond > Thread: My gameplay changes to Heroes 3
Thread: My gameplay changes to Heroes 3 This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 30, 2017 10:44 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 18:24, 14 Jul 2017.

My gameplay changes to Heroes 3

Hello guys

Prepare for a very long post.

This thread is about the changes I made to Heroes 3 and imo it has made the game more interesting, balanced and challenging.

I play Heroes 3 with Horn of The Abyss and HD Mod enabled. (Scouting and Necromancy is the way they are in HotA, since I like their version of these two skills)

So first I will list the changes I made to secondary skills and try to argue reasonably why I made the changes I did.

Improved secondary skills:
Learning: 5/10/15 -> 10/20/30
This might seem like a poor upgrade and Learning is still not the best skill, however Learning will allow you to level up faster, get into Library of Enlightenment faster and in some maps you will encounter Quest Guards requiring you to reach a specific level. (In HotA there is also the hero Kinkeria, who specialise in Learning and doubles the effect of Learning.)
Still if you wan't Learning, it's best to start with the skill or get it ASAP otherwise you won't benefit much from it.

Eagle Eye: 40% and up to level 2 spells/50% and up to level 3 spells/60% and up to level 4 spells. -> 70% level 2/70% level 3/70% level 4
Sadly the only way to immediately improve Eagle Eye is to increase the chance of it actually working, you might wonder why I did'nt choose 100% chance then. The reason is the 3 artifacts giving 5, 10 and 15% for a total of 30%, so for these artifacts to still have some value 70% seems to be the logical maximum, also there are 7 heroes that specialise in Eagle Eye incresing their chance of succes per level, so with 100% these heroes speciality would be completely useless. Eagle Eye is still not the best skill, but there is a good chance of it actually working now. Eagle Eye is probably not worth taking for your main hero.

First Aid: 1-50/1-75/1-100 -> 1-100/1-150/1-200 also tripled HP of First Aid tent from 75 -> 225
First Aid was another bad skill, not only would you need to buy a tent from somewhere, the tent would also get destroyed very easy and heal only few hp. With my changes the tent is surprisingly durable and it heals double the amount of what it used to, it's still a situational skill, but it can be used to save Gold Dragons who can't be resurrected or make Hydras really tough. The First Aid skill is perhaps best used with heroes defending a Rampart, Fortress or Necropolis town so the tent can be easily replaced.

Mysticism: 2/3/4 -> 4/7/10
My goal was to make Mysticism a valid alternative to Intelligence and since I also made Intelligence slightly worse, I think I achieved that goal. Mysticism is useless for heroes defending a town as they will recover all mana every turn through the mage guild anyway. 4/7/10 might not sound like a lot, but it can let you keep going for a while and there are also 4 heroes that specialise in Mysticism, they can recover quite a lot of mana each day. Also a good skill for AI.

Sorcery: 5/10/15 -> 7/13/20
This might seem like a weak change, but since I also improved certain spells (as you will see later in this thread) and there are also Sorcery specialists, Sorcery is not so bad anymore, especially for a Warlock, Witch or Heretic.

Resistance: 5/10/20 -> 7/13/20
I thought this skill had a weird progression and was pretty weak at basic and advanced levels. Expert level remains at 20%

Estates: 125/250/500 -> 200/350/500
This skill also had a weird progression and when comparing Estates heroes, with +350 gold heroes, most would prefer the +350 gold heroes, therefore I improved Estates. Expert remains at 500 gold.

Archery: 10/25/50 -> 20/35/50
Another skill with weird progression. I made basic and advanced better and kept expert at 50%.      

The skills I made worse:
Intelligence: 25/50/100 -> 25/50/75
Another skill with weird progression and I thought it was very good at expert level, it is still very good at 75% especially for the 3 Intelligence specialists. Now Intelligence and Mysticism are more equal.

Logistics: 10/20/30 -> 8/17/25
Logistics was one of the best skills in the game, especially as a specialist. I made it slighty worse to make it a bit more reasonable.

Navigation: 50/100/150 -> 25/50/75 sea movement without Navigation changed from 1500 movement points -> 1630
It might seem strange to change Navigation, for most maps there might be little water and you would never consider it anyway and in maps where you need to sail, you might learn Navigation from a Witch Hut. Still I thought the difference between no Navigation and expert Navigation was ridiculous, so now you actually have to choose if you need this skill or not. Note that sea movement without navigation was increased from 1500 -> 1630, so a bit better than before. (1630 is the same as movement on land with creatures of speed 5.)  

Changes I did to War Machines:
Since I changed the First Aid skill I considered if the War Machines needed some changes as well, it resulted in:
Ballista: 2-3 damage -> 3-4 damage
I considered the ballista pretty weak, even with the strongest Ballista specialist Gurnisson. It's damage is better now, but still not as good as HotA's cannon, which also cost 2 times what a ballista costs, so I think that's fair.
Ammo Cart: 100 hp -> 200 hp
I thought the cart was a bit fragile, now it takes twice the punishment.
First Aid Tent: 75 -> 225 hp
Like mentioned in the skill section I tripled the hp of First Aid Tent, this makes it much more durable.

So that's it guys, my changes to Secondary Skills and War Machines.
In my next post (tomorrow) I will cover all the changes I did to spells.

You are welcome to tell me your opinion about the changes and if you like them or not or how you think it should be.  


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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted January 30, 2017 11:26 PM

Learnig I think 100% is minimum. The same sorcery.
Estates 1000 g. City is 2000-4000.
500 was in HII where city 1250-1750.
...
Eagle eye is so weak that 100% is to small :-) Dont care artifacts who use it :-) Complete all three is long. And luck and morale level max is 3 and artifacts are too. It gives 200% :-):-):-) It mustnt be 100%:-) So 70, 85, 100%. Too small:-)
Ballista 6-8 is not to much :-)

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 30, 2017 11:30 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 23:35, 30 Jan 2017.

I think you are exaggarating quite a bit Baronus, especially with Sorcery, but to each their own.
Guess you did'nt understand what I said about Eagle Eye and ballista, Eagle Eye at 100% would make the 7 specialists useless and ballista at 6-8 damage would make it better than cannon at only half the cost...

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted January 31, 2017 12:32 AM
Edited by Baronus at 00:36, 31 Jan 2017.

No its not too big. Sorcery gives 15% to spell damages only! If 100 it will be 115. Funny. 200 its minimum. Wisdom is still better a lot. It must be compared with it. Wisdom gives ALL spells 3-5 lvl! Not only missiles.

Ballista can cost more ofcourse. 6- 8 is still small. Hero lvl 10 gives 70 - 90 dmg. And with skill 210- 270. 2 - 3 angels maybe in middle game! ... Weak.

Yes I lost eagle eye specialist but who want to win game using skill like eagle eye? Its great mistake. But still you can give 70, 80, 90%. 10% for ,,speciallist" gives 100%. Its only theoretical question because this skill is still that we dont want get it.

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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted January 31, 2017 12:35 AM

phoenix4ever said:
Eagle Eye: 40% and up to level 2 spells/50% and up to level 3 spells/60% and up to level 4 spells. -> 70% level 2/70% level 3/70% level 4
Sadly the only way to immediately improve Eagle Eye is to increase the chance of it actually working, you might wonder why I did'nt choose 100% chance then. The reason is the 3 artifacts giving 5, 10 and 15% for a total of 30%, so for these artifacts to still have some value 70% seems to be the logical maximum, also there are 7 heroes that specialise in Eagle Eye incresing their chance of succes per level, so with 100% these heroes speciality would be completely useless. Eagle Eye is still not the best skill, but there is a good chance of it actually working now. Eagle Eye is probably not worth taking for your main hero.


There's another issue with Eagle Eye, that I don't see mentioned very often: it kills itself with its own succes. With that I mean that the more spells your Hero "steals" through this skill, the less spells remain to be stolen. Once your Hero knows just about all spells (in whatever way they're obtained), the skill becomes completely, utterly useless.

Couple that with the fact that most low level spells are easily acquired through other means and the skill only becomes marginally good for higher tier spells.

As long as this niche remains, I don't see Eagle Eye ever being a good contender for a skill slot at all.
____________
The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted January 31, 2017 12:38 AM

Great job, but also you should include the names of those who did most of the work allowing your modification, I recall in particular Maurice spending time finding the needed addresses.

Unless I miss something and you did all the work by yourself.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 31, 2017 12:49 AM

I agree Maurice.
Sadly the only thing I know how to change is the % and even at 100% it would be a bad skill. Ideally it should learn adventure spells, level 5 spells, spells from creatures and maybe even have a way of being deleted, when learning all/most of the spells.

Salamandre thank you and you are absolutely right, Maurice did some amazing work helping me out with this, also OxFEA and others.
So thank you for that guys!

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted January 31, 2017 12:54 PM

Imagine if EE could steal last used adv. map spells or spells last used in previous battle.
____________
Living time backwards

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elaf
elaf


Adventuring Hero
posted January 31, 2017 02:32 PM

I mostly agree, i've my own differences but
it is true that the most urgent and unbalanced are secondary skills.
Magic heroes too!

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Ebonheart
Ebonheart


Famous Hero
Rush the rush
posted January 31, 2017 03:16 PM

Imo you can keep the buff on Eagle eye but also merge it with Scouting and double the power of Scouting. One could also ponder making it work like scouting in H4 with numbers, extra details etc about creatures and heroes.

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 31, 2017 03:26 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 15:29, 31 Jan 2017.

Ebonheart sadly I can't merge skills, the part about giving extra information could be interesting, but I don't know how either.
Scouting was improved in HotA from 1/2/3 -> 1/3/5 which I think is reasonable, also they have 2 heroes specialising in Scouting.

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PandaTar
PandaTar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
posted January 31, 2017 03:28 PM

I think it could have an effect upon battling. 'Paying attention to details', improving attack or defense against enemies each time one attacks/defend in battle, starting with 5% and capping at 30%, or something. Keen eyes help finding weak points and improving defenses somehow. Just an idea.
____________

Heroes-based proposal thread On hold, while I'm writing my book. =)

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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted January 31, 2017 04:18 PM
Edited by phe at 16:25, 31 Jan 2017.

Mysticism can regenerate mana in battle 2/3/4 per round...

War Machines could have ability to be respawned every 10 rounds...

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 31, 2017 04:28 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 16:30, 31 Jan 2017.

Can't do any of those.
With Mysticism it is only possible to specify a certain amount of mana per day.
Other ideas might be possible with reverse-engineering or scripts, but that's not what I'm doing here.

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phe
phe


Famous Hero
Life and Freedom
posted January 31, 2017 04:39 PM
Edited by phe at 16:44, 31 Jan 2017.

phoenix4ever said:
Can't do any of those.
With Mysticism it is only possible to specify a certain amount of mana per day.
Other ideas might be possible with reverse-engineering or scripts, but that's not what I'm doing here.

maybe it's possible to give mana regeneration in battle to other magic skill Sorcery, Scholar, Intelligence, Wisdom???
or every of these magic skills at expert will give 1 mana per round...

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 31, 2017 04:41 PM

Maybe it's possible, but I don't know how.

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Baronus
Baronus


Supreme Hero
posted January 31, 2017 06:04 PM
Edited by Baronus at 18:05, 31 Jan 2017.

What is possible I wroted here:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=42152&PID=1388730#focus

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted January 31, 2017 09:21 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 11:23, 15 Jul 2017.

So now I'll post all the changes I made to spells, I will use this format x/x/x/x meaning from no magic skill to expert magic skill.

Adventure Spells:
Summon Boat:
Cost: 8/7/7/7 -> 8/7/7/6 Chance of succes: 50/50/75/100 -> 100/100/100/100
I guess everyone have tried to summon a boat and kept failing, it's annoying as ****, but that won't happen anymore. This is also a very good change for multiplayer and for the AI, which won't waste mana endlessly trying to summon a boat. The difference between basic and advanced is that if no boats are available a new one is created when cast on advanced level.

Town Portal:
Cost: 16/12/12/12 -> 16/14/12/12
Basic Town Portal was made a bit more expensive. But the big change of this spell and what will make the game a lot more challenging vs AI is that human players will always Town Portal to nearest town, but the AI can choose town from advanced level like we are used to.
I never played with Town Portal as I thought it made the game way too easy, but this version of Town Portal actually makes it harder. The difference between advanced and expert is that it requires less movement points at expert than advanced.

Dimension Door:
Cost: 25/20/20/20 -> 25/22/20/20 Number of casts: 1/2/3/4 -> 1/1/1/1
Yes only 1 cast per day at all levels, but it's still a useful spell. It can be cast into the shroud, from water to water and over mountains, it can also be cast once a day to improve movement range, if you have mana to spare. Now you don't necessarily need Air Magic anymore. The difference between advanced and expert is that it requires less movement points at expert than advanced.


Next up is Mass Spells, note that I will include an AI Value, if I changed it. The AI Value tells how willing the AI is to cast that spell, higher number means higher priority.

Mass Spells:
Haste:
Cost: 6/5/5/5 -> 6/5/5/9 AI Value: 5/5/10/10 -> 7/7/15/30
Effect: +3/+3/+5/+5 -> +3/+3/+4/+4
Mass Haste is now a little less overpowered.  

Slow:
Cost: 6/5/5/5 -> 6/5/5/9 AI Value: 5/5/15/15 -> 7/7/15/30
Effect: -25%/-25%/-50%/-50% -> -30%/-30%/-40%/-40%  
Like Mass Haste Mass Slow is now a little less overpowered.

Bless:
Cost: 5/4/4/4 -> 6/5/5/9 AI Value: 10/10/11/11 -> 10/10/11/22

Curse:
Cost: 6/5/5/5 -> 6/5/5/9 AI Value: 10/10/11/11 -> 10/10/11/22

Bloodlust:
AI Value: 7/7/15/15 -> 7/7/15/30

Precision:
AI Value: 7/7/15/15 -> 7/7/15/30

Stone Skin:
Cost: 5/4/4/4 -> 5/4/4/6 AI Value: 7/7/15/15 -> 7/7/15/30
Expert cost is now same as expert Weakness, which is kinda the opposite effect of Stone Skin.

Weakness:
AI Value: 7/7/15/15 -> 7/7/15/30

Shield:
Cost: 5/4/4/4 -> 5/4/4/6 AI Value: 10/10/20/20 -> 10/10/20/40
An alternative to Stone Skin and therefore same cost.

Cure:
AI Value: 4/4/4/4 -> 4/4/8/16

Dispel:
AI Value: 3/3/3/3 -> 3/3/6/12

Protection from Water:
AI Value: 2/2/4/4 -> 2/2/4/8

Protection from Fire:
AI Value: 2/2/4/4 -> 2/2/4/8

Protection from Air:
AI Value: 2/2/4/4 -> 2/2/4/8

Protection from Earth:
AI Value: 2/2/4/4 -> 2/2/4/8

Fortune:
AI Value: 1/1/2/2 -> 2/2/4/8

Misfortune:
AI Value: 1/1/2/2 -> 2/2/4/8

Mirth:
AI Value: 1/1/2/2 -> 2/2/4/8

Sorrow:
AI Value: 1/1/2/2 -> 2/2/4/8

Air Shield:
AI Value: 20/20/50/50 -> 20/20/50/100

Forgetfulness:
AI Value: 1/1/1/1 -> 2/2/4/8

Counterstrike:
AI Value: 20/20/30/30 -> 20/20/30/60

Prayer:
AI Value: 8/8/16/16 -> 12/12/16/32
Effect: +2/+2/+4/+4 -> +3/+3/+4/+4

Damaging spells:
Death Ripple:
Power: 5 -> 6 AI Value: 20/20/20/20 -> 24/24/24/24

Fire Wall:
Power: 10 -> 12 AI will NEVER cast this spell  

Land Mine:
Cost: 18/15/15/15 -> 15/12/12/12 Power: 10 -> 15 AI will NEVER cast this spell

Fireball:
Cost: 15/12/12/12 -> 12/9/9/9 Power 10 -> 15 AI Value: 15/15/15/15 -> 22/22/22/22
Fireball now costs the same as Frost Ring

Frost Ring:
Power: 10 -> 15 AI Value: 12/12/12/12 -> 18/18/18/18

Inferno:
Cost 16/12/12/12 -> 20/16/16/16 Power: 10 -> 18 AI Value: 20/20/20/20 -> 36/36/36/36
At almost double the power Inferno is now just as good as Meteor Shower or Chain Lighting, if not better and it costs only 4 more mana than it used to.

Meteor Shower:
Cost: 16/12/12/12 -> 20/16/16/16
Same cost as Inferno.

Armageddon:
Power: 50 -> 15
I made this spell much weaker, it can still do more damage than Implosion though!

*Titan's Lightning Bolt:*
Power: 600 damage/600 damage/600 damage/600 damage -> 25 x spell power + 50/50/50/50 (Like expert Lightning Bolt)
Titan's Lightning Bolt used to do 600 damage, now it is affected by spell power and can be affected by sorcery.

Other spells:
Blind:
AI Value: 50/50/50/50 ->  25/25/37/50  
I hated how AI spammed this spell, it will still cast it fairly often, but not as much as before.

Quicksand:
Cost: 8/6/6/6 -> 10/8/8/8 AI will NEVER cast this spell

Force Field:
Cost: 12/9/9/9 -> 12/10/10/9 AI will NEVER cast this spell
There is now a small difference in mana between advanced and expert levels.

Hypnotize:
Power: 25 -> 50
At double the power this spell actually works sometimes.
I haven't changed AI Values since it already had surprisingly high values at 37/37/75/100

Teleport:
Cost: 15/12/6/3 -> 15/12/12/12

Berserk:
Cost: 20/16/16/16 -> 20/18/18/16 Effect: 0/0/1/2 -> 0/0/1/1
Basic and Advanced Berserk got a bit more expensive and Expert Berserk now has same area effect as Advanced Berserk.  

Slayer:
Effect: 8/8/8/8 -> 12/12/12/12 AI Value: 1/1/1/1 -> 2/2/2/2

Animate Dead:
Cost: 15/12/12/12 -> 19/16/16/16 AI Value: 60/60/60/120 -> 60/60/120/120
Animate Dead now has almost the same cost as Resurrection.

Resurrection:
AI Value: 50/50/60/120 -> 60/60/120/120

Magic Mirror:
Chance: 20/20/30/40 -> 40/40/60/80 AI Value: 12/12/18/24 -> 24/24/36/48
Magic Mirror remains a niche spell, perhaps best used to protect Gold Dragons from Implosion, at least there is a good chance of it working now.

With all the new AI Values, AI will cast mass spells much more often and will use a lot of different spells, this makes it a much better and interesting opponent! It also gives Eagle Eye some value since AI will use a lot of different spells, it will cast Mass Slow often btw.

Changes to Mage Guilds:
Conflux:
Curse:
Chance: 0 -> 5
With Conflux' Magic University they should be able to take advantage of both Haste, Slow, Bless and Curse, now they can.

So there you have it, all the changes I did to spells and mage guilds. I look forward to your comments.    

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Serp
Serp


Adventuring Hero
posted February 06, 2017 03:38 PM

aahh, thank you very much

I agree to most of these changes, except townportal and dimension door being weaker. But this is only because I normally play big maps and without those spells it takes years to hunt the enemies...

I guess with this limited modding, it is not possible to make the first aid tnet resurrect? I think this would be much more fair when playing non-magic against magic, since the resurrection guy always has all creatures, while the non-magic looses a few createures every battle...

I think some of your changes, like needed spellpoints can easily be done in the hota exe by just changing numbers in those included txt files, right? But to change skills is more complicated and described here http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=42152 , right ?
I fear the addresses mentioned there will change with new hota release?

Anyway, let's see if hota 1.5 is also changing some of those values

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phoenix4ever
phoenix4ever


Supreme Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
posted February 06, 2017 03:50 PM
Edited by phoenix4ever at 15:52, 06 Feb 2017.

Thanks Serp.
No unfortunately I can't get the First Aid Tent to resurrect, only heal more, I guess it's nice if you wanna save an Azure Dragon or Gold Dragon, but otherwise it does'nt help much.
Yeah the nerfs to TP and DD is probably not for everybody, but I like them since it makes the game more challenging also I don't feel so forced to get Air Magic anymore. I still pick Earth Magic always, because of Slow, Resurrection/Animate Dead and many great spells really. And Fire Magic is much better than before, Inferno spell rox my sox off.

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