|
| Thread: Heroes V should remember of Heroes II |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
|
Gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
|
posted April 28, 2003 02:52 PM |
|
|
ok, maybe a bit better wording would be:
a good style will create a good atmosphere (assuming playability is ok), and a good atmosphere is what makes the game worh playing for me. if they make homm look like the standard commercial game as much as possible.. well, this might also be called style, but imho this kind of style is inappropriate (or disturbing) for homm.
there are too many games that have this standard "style" or maybe i should say.. they seem to be designed to meet the standards of the market. the situation starts to look like mcdonalds, it's the same wherever you go. if people are made dumb enough to expect those standard requirements every time, game designing requires much less brain work from the producers (maybe somewhat more craft) and there is less risk for the publisher, because a standard game earns standard profit.
i wonder how many people disagree..
____________
what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
|
|
Daddy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
|
|
posted May 29, 2004 12:01 AM |
|
Edited By: Daddy on 28 May 2004
|
Yep. I agree to the opinion that HOMM2 had the best grafics in all the line of HOMM Games.
HoMM3 was quite good either, but HoMM2 just is best - The creatures look more alife..
e.g. the Necromancer's Creatures: they, espeacially the Bonedragon, the Skeletton and the Liche (<- were are those in HOMM4?? miss them!) had that evil- or better - grim look. They just had much more style than the dress-wearing liche in HoMM3 or the plastic-figure Bone/Ghost Dragons in HoMM3/4. Or the majestic, golden Crusader with his giant sword and full plate - I really loved this unit, the only reason for me to play the knight in H2! He lost his style, too, "over the years". The Phoenix is a very good example, too! He was big, fearsome ans glowing in H2 - very majestic, I loved that Creature! But In H3 AB and especially in H4 he jsut looks... let me say crappy! In H3 the fire stopped to move, while he stood and in H4 he is just too thin and too.. well, he isn't that majestic beast anymore that he used to be...
Well I could go on with describing the advantages of the H2 Graphics but I think that is not really necessary, so I just say:
Man, you needn't pixel the graphics together and let them look exactly like H2! But go "back" to the style of H2, It just looked mory like Fantasy, Mediaval and how people call it - the creatures just were more alife and they had character! Please don't make graphics like jumped out a Disney Movie of a comic- or children's book 
regards
Daddy
EDIT:
I just re installed HOMM1^^ and as I saw the towns, I was really happy: It was, what many users here wanted - the towns being more alife! As I saw Barbarians' Pueblo with the two Ogres and the Horse.. It just looked good. More "Action" in the town!
/EDIT
____________
|
|
TheRealDeal
Promising
Supreme Hero
Foobum* of Justice!
|
|
posted June 07, 2004 02:41 PM |
|
|
May god have mercy on us all...
Well, this is a well known subject, so heres my 2 cents. First of all, think about it. HoMM1 = succes. HoMM2 = Major Succes. HoMM3 = Major Succes. It isnt possible to keep this roll going on like this. So HoMM4 was bound to happen. I even think they knew it. So they used it to check a few things.. lets jus say 3d, they tried out the 3d part, which actually was a good idea, Dont get me wrong here! i liked the HoMM2 just as much as you guys. But there is more future in 3D than in 2D, 2D ofcoursly evolves with time, but its just not enough. And give them some time, HoMM4 was rushed anyway.
____________
*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.
|
|
IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
|
|
posted June 08, 2004 05:27 AM |
|
Edited By: IYY on 7 Jun 2004
|
A thought
Even if the creators of the game choose to render in 3D or have pre-rendered graphics like in H3-4, they should at least have a look at the H2 creature designs.
 > 
This has nothing to do with the fact that the second one is pre-rendered. The first dragon is simply better designed, prob'ly already at the concept art stage.
Now look at the H4 dragon: http://heroes.h1.ru/h/black_dragon_b.jpg
From a design point of view, it's a joke in comparisson to the previous two. No matter how large the initial render is, or how much it is resized, the design is evident in each version and was clearly declining since H2.
So here's the thing. Ubisoft should have their artists study the art of H2 and the designs for each creature, and try to make something that looks like that. Then maybe the rest will follow.
To further show this at work, I redrew the H2 dragon in two different styles with different sizes. You can see that no matter what's done to it, the initial design remains the same.
A more medieval direction, at a large size:
A style similar to that used by Ubisoft in their concept art:
____________
|
|
Daddy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
|
|
posted June 08, 2004 12:28 PM |
|
|
That's what I'm talking about all the time^^
You're quite right with ur post and the drwings show that well.
I hope someone at ubi reads this...
regards
Daddy
____________
|
|
TheRealDeal
Promising
Supreme Hero
Foobum* of Justice!
|
|
posted June 08, 2004 01:37 PM |
|
|
True, but...
Yes they have flaws, but the flaw is that the dragon looks less majestic(that problem is also with the Phoenix) The problem is at the point, and nowhere else!
I agree with you, to some extend. But 2D has been around for a long time, which had given them more knowlegde.
We must give them time to make things different, and to be honest with you, i liked the HoMM3 dragon, though the HoMM2 dragon had more character, the HoMM3 one had somewhat more of a fearce look, but the HoMM4 dragon is ridicule, especially the Fearie dragon.. that was almost pathetic.. look at it when it flies, its whole body stretches.. and the WINGS MAN! THE WINGS!
But you could keep on playing HoMM2 forever if you'd like, i liked HoMM2 aswell... but as with other games, it gets boring in the long run.
____________
*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.
|
|
gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
|
|
posted June 09, 2004 01:37 AM |
|
|
Quote:
But 2D has been around for a long time, which had given them more knowlegde.
interesting, i think it's that computer game making has been around for too long and has lost the innovative attitude. i guess that it's a well-known process and people don't have to think so much when they create a computer game. or that it doesn't pay off. no need to waste so much time dreaming about how the dragons might look better, you can just get the job done and that's it.
btw i still play homm2 sometimes. about half of the games i play is homm2.
|
|
Polaris
Promising
Known Hero
|
|
posted July 10, 2004 05:40 AM |
bonus applied. |
|
I am always saddened to see people cling to great old games and become too conservative- memorializing things that were not important to the game's success but were merely technological artifacts of the era in which it was made. I have seen the same thing in Starcraft's community wishing for a 2D sequel (which is why I made it a generalizaton).
What really surprises me is that you are a graphical artist. You of all people should know that 3D art need not be so sterile as you described. I'm sure that you yourself have done much better 3D work than what we see in Heroes 4. There's no excuse for bad 3D art anymore. But not all 3D art is bad.
My brother used to argue with me telling me that 2D was better than 3D. I would tell him 3D was more versatile and more visually relaxing but he would stick with his 2D and just grin, "Yours looks blocky and plastic, mine looks so much more real." This argument went on from about the time of Quake 2 until this year. Three months ago he got a PS2. Now we agree. (And PS2 is the weakest of the consoles... how many years old is it? How many years until H5?)
With GPUs from the past couple of years, 3D graphics are too much more versatile than 2D to ignore them. Just look at this generation's console games. They don't look like Toy Story anymore. They look like people and animals and trees. Admittedly they know what kinds of objects to keep out of games (furry things and flabby things), but don't let that rain on what's already there.
...
One other comment, from the medieval murals and paintings I have seen, I have no desire to inflict that kind of "style" on any kind of game whatsoever. Everything is flat and there is no sense of depth whatsoever. Proportions are not even close, and symbology is more important than appearance. The only game I can think of off the top of my head that had semi-medieval graphics is King of Dragon Pass and there was no animation in that one.
And of all the games to describe as having medieval graphics... you pick Heroes 2?! That game was the epitome of high fantasy (graphically... stylistically... everything)! Please do not insult it that way.
____________
|
|
gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
|
|
posted July 11, 2004 10:49 PM |
|
|
i think that the words 'childish', 'cartoonish', etc, and now also 'medieval' are a bit overused, and often not used in the correct place.
polaris:
the homm2 surely wasn't close to purely medieval style. i would rather say that it was cartoonish or old computer game style with a clearly visible touch of medieval style. i.e. it had more of the medieval style influence than other cartoonish styles. and this is what some people, maybe even a lot of people, liked about homm2.
the cartoonish style or whatever it should be called was probably an artifact of the resolution, the touch of medieval style was the sucessful design decision.
i understand those starcraft fans who suggest 2d for starcraft2. if we compare starcraft and warcraft3 then in my very strong opinion starcraft 2d interface is much more clear and usable. no matter how much more more beautiful, natural and life-like warcraft3 may look, the 2d starcraft still feels much more comfortable to play. or do you think the warcraft team didn't make an effort to make a good interface?
i am not saying i am convinced that a good 3d interface can't be done, though.
also, it cannot be so difficult to do 3d models of homm creatures with a touch of medieval style so that it doesn't look planar and boring, etc. they would only look less photo-realistic, and imho photo-realism is boring.
|
|
Daddy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
|
|
posted July 12, 2004 02:48 AM |
|
|
I just played H2 and I again got proove for the great style this game has 
Look at the big, grim Bonedrag killing the poor, startled little Gobbo^^
nostalgic greetings
Daddy
____________
|
|
Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
|
|
posted July 12, 2004 07:14 AM |
|
|
umm...
Quote:
...i understand those starcraft fans who suggest 2d for starcraft2. if we compare starcraft and warcraft3 then in my very strong opinion starcraft 2d interface is much more clear and usable. no matter how much more more beautiful, natural and life-like warcraft3 may look, the 2d starcraft still feels much more comfortable to play. or do you think the warcraft team didn't make an effort to make a good interface?...
last time i checked, both the gui and the gameplay of WC3 were close, if not the same, to that of SC ...SC's strong point was never its graphic engine, it was the story and gameplay... blizzard is known for being good at both... with WC3 they won the graphics as well... so for SC2 i say full 3D
...now, Ubisoft is not Blizzard... but i am confident they are able to make a very good 3D game... so i would have to choose 3D for HoMM V as well... that said, the HoMM2 style is nice and should be around, maybe with a touch of HoMM3 ...if the concept art is any indication, its going to be mindblowing
EDIT: not HoMM4 ...bad fingers!!!
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
|
|
dajek
Known Hero
Psychedelic Knight
|
|
posted July 12, 2004 12:41 PM |
|
|
I see a chance in this thread to say my opinion once more too: Heroes 2 is the best of the series and the graphix created the right atmosphere to allow it.
But I am not so concerned about the 3d thing really. 3d doesn't mean sterilised Homm 4-style c**p, it can be quite simiral to the graeat graphix of heroes 2. And what pleases me most, is that IMO the concept art we have seen for Heroes 5 is quite similar to the *a bit 'cartoonish', but still with some 'medieval' atmosphere* style of Heroes 2. So we can hope, that ubisoft manages to bring back the old good feeling of Heroes 2, but still enhance the graphix to the 3/dimensional level for an even better outcome.
____________
________ _ _
|
|
gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
|
|
posted July 13, 2004 12:53 AM |
|
|
lith-maethor:
well, 2d chess is imho more comfortable to play and more clear to look at than 3d chess, even though 3d chess looks better.
the 2d sprites of starcraft must be more recognizable because of less variety while 3d creatures look different from almost any angle. this may imho make you generalize the 3d figures of creatures into areas of color and texture and some charactersitics of shape during fast real-time play.
in a turn-based game like homm where you don't have to rush like in warcraft3 the 3d might pay off, though, like in 3d chess. or it might be a good compromise between aesthetics and ease of use.
____________
what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything
|
|
Pitsu
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 13, 2004 10:55 AM |
|
Edited By: Pitsu on 13 Jul 2004
|
Me too does not believe that 3D makes it better. Maybe a graphical beauty, but with the cost of strategy. Half a year ago, I wrote a bit about it. If you have not read it yet, you can do it here . It is not only about graphics though.
____________
|
|
Polaris
Promising
Known Hero
|
|
posted July 15, 2004 05:06 AM |
|
|
A few final questions before I leave this topic:
To those who are against 3D graphics, in what way(s) do you think 2D will enhance Heroes 5 that 3D will not accomplish? Or how will 3D detract from the game in a way that 2D will not?
So far the anti-3D arguments seem to have 2 branches: One seems to be that H4 was not a great game and H2 was, so therefore H5 should be 2D (which lacks a sufficient causal argument). The other is that 3D supposedly looks worse than 2D (which is laughable-- especially considering that 2D art is derived from 3D these days). Can any defender of 2D come up with an argument capable of convincing someone on the 3D side, because if not I'm out of this topic.
Also- so that we're all on the same page- is everyone aware that Ubisoft has already announced that Heroes 5 will be all 3D?
|
|
gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
|
|
posted July 15, 2004 09:46 AM |
|
|
Quote:
One seems to be that H4 was not a great game and H2 was, so therefore H5 should be 2D
btw i am quite sure that homm4 was 2d.
|
|
Pitsu
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 16, 2004 11:06 AM |
|
Edited By: Pitsu on 16 Jul 2004
|
Quote:
To those who are against 3D graphics, in what way(s) do you think 2D will enhance Heroes 5 that 3D will not accomplish? Or how will 3D detract from the game in a way that 2D will not?
In my opinion the biggest problem is that 3D and also H4 style 3D spirits require realistic perspective. If you see a unit in side view, also battlefield and adventure map around the unit must be in sideview. From Kings Bounty to H3 you saw the world from above, but units/strucktures from sideview. For strategic planning is stright-down look the best, for reconizing different object, on the other hand, side-view is better.Combined view-angles allowed also such things as the backgound forest or mountains on battlefield, that are gone in H4.
Quote:
considering that 2D art is derived from 3D these days
Pixelart is not dead, and can still be used, even if it is out of fashion.
____________
|
|
Lordskeleton
Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
|
|
posted August 02, 2004 07:55 PM |
|
|
My only fear is that they'll do the Wc3/Warhammer thingy with grotesquely muscled soldiers, or in other ways blow selected bodyparts out of proportion. It does NOT befit the Heroes series.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.
____________
Vad gagnar det en människa om han vinner hela världen men förlorar sin själ?
|
| |
|
|
