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Heroes Community > Tournament of Honor > Thread: Unstoppable desire for critics ! Masochism?
Thread: Unstoppable desire for critics ! Masochism? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
the_teacher
the_teacher


Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
posted May 03, 2003 03:06 PM

Unstoppable desire for critics ! Masochism?

If you  ever got bored, check the new map - ELDORADO !
I need your oppinion, maybe my future , making maps, could be brighter than the present status of TOH player

Enjoy it, tnx fo your support


Have a nice day

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insatiable
insatiable


Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
posted May 05, 2003 09:49 PM

making a map is biiig responsiblity
specially since its on toh page,available for tournament play..
..i dont making critics or advices for now..i have my own chit to shape up ..cant afford to be too theoritic,it kills the hand.
try any 'retired' ones  

btw.eldorado looks like a map..i hope it plays like one too
even if it doesnt play,as well as planned..you gained first precious exp on mapmaking


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Jinxer
Jinxer


Legendary Hero
*****
posted May 05, 2003 11:11 PM

I am sure I will get plenty of tosses, but I must comment.

Elderado looks just like 90% of the TOH maps.  Its whole basis is race to key locationsof map, and in doing so you gain overwhelming advantage.

Why is it that you people dont try and make a map that creates an end game balance. Let battle tactics etc play a role in desiding game, instead of who can buy the most immortality potions and run map faster?

Obviously I am no master map maker, just desire a map with more substance than beating the map. Thats all I hear is fast makes best player.  Maybe that is true on rankings, but all you prove by that is you can beat the map, how about trying to actually beat your opponent straight up in a battle?

I will have a challenge for some of these so called talented high ranked players soon.  When I get my newest map done, there will be no immortality potions to aid the map rush tactics. But I can bet ya money that a big chunk of the high ranked players wont play my new map because they wont beable to rush. I will be curious, to see.  Every day I hear them all throw it in my face that I need to adapt and learn to rush, well I am curious if they will be able to adapt to a NONE rush style also. =P

Let the tossing begin.

Jinxer
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Blue_Camel
Blue_Camel


Famous Hero
posted May 06, 2003 02:53 AM

my new map that im working on also has immortality potions banned.  blacksmiths banned in towns, and potions of imm unchecked on the artifacts list.
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AzureDragonTM
AzureDragonTM


Known Hero
posted May 06, 2003 04:20 AM

Jinxer it's not about rush or non rush... it's about the thing that 2 armies can never be equal... from what i understand why don't u edit 2 perfect similar armies with same heroes/spells/creatures and do battles ? Also u will save a lot time of "mapmaking" and also u will save a lot of time "playing" those "stupid" rush maps. And u will have what u like : one battle with perfect equal armies. But what I don't understand is : if u r such a good player why u don't beat the whole map b4 your opponent and rush him up ??
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Evil Ghost Pirate LeChuck

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Tc_Fear
Tc_Fear


Famous Hero
posted May 06, 2003 10:20 AM

agree with azure

jinxer-all u can do is -mountins wich is a dividing line between oponents will disapair 3rd month
if u could create shorter one

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midnight
midnight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted May 06, 2003 10:34 AM

even tho i dont play H4, the principle Jinxer is talking about is the same for H3. A race to 1 spot that means u win, is pretty boring. Better to have multiple sites to hit, and an element of risk in getting them eg. getting jumped by opponent. that can make for more interesting tactics, and less robot-like logistical planning. That sort of map is much harder to make of course.
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the_teacher
the_teacher


Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
posted May 06, 2003 10:43 AM

jinxer is right
........

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Jinxer
Jinxer


Legendary Hero
*****
posted May 06, 2003 03:51 PM

Azure and TC_fear as I suspected you totally missed the point of my post. You guys are always so blind to what the post really says and always just jump to " Jinxer wants ALL maps to go to Month 3"

That is not correct. Different maps play to different weeks. And when I mentioned a balance at end of game I did not mean both armies and spells and artifacts all exactly equal.. far from it. Midnight explained it best.  You guys disect a map to find the shortest route to take, and the least things on map to fight. So in a sense you are great players at conquering a map. In my last game with Jex, he bearly even though his area, he just ran to middle grew 6 huge heroes and came at me with 6 angels and 6 heroes. SO yes he is a master at beating maps that he memorized strategies on. No offense to Azure and TC_Fear, but I understand why my post would ruffle your feathers, you have become so high ranked off of rush style tactics to get most of your wins. And usually play only maps you can do that on. But hey this game aint about fun its about only wins right?

@ Blue Camel --  Also another idea I had for my new map, is to put oracles in all of the quadrants and areas of each players area, that requires you to hit them with your main army to gain a quest artifact that would be required when you beat the break guards.  There is still a huge open middle area that you can get into day 3 for free and run all game if you wish, but with the oracles you would also have to fight within your own area at some point in game also. Then if an opponent runs and clears 90% of the map faster and shows up and kills you, then I would be impressed.

This would all not be an issue if there was a decent random map generator. heh.

Jinxer
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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 06, 2003 04:13 PM

Speaking of generators, been doing some messing with the utility. I dunno if anyone else has had a real hard look at it, but it creates some pretty decent randoms, the generator is much in the heroes2 vein, and worth looking at I think.

Sorry for the offtopicness. Flame on!
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Myctteakyshd

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 06, 2003 05:53 PM
Edited By: Thunder on 6 May 2003

I think banning Immortality Potions is a "cheap" method to prevent rush. I don't mind about Immortality Potions, but seeing something being banned just to prevent rushing doesn't sound right. Use your imagination, I'm sure you people can come up with something better than that to make the map "un-rushable".

Make stronger guardians, make exploring more rewarding.

Btw, I just scripted today two quest huts. Artifact Merchant (it only buys, but it buys anything from potions to items and from scrolls to relics) and Altar of Sacrifice (very much like H3 one). The map should be ready for playtesting soon enough, so map makers are free to use these quest huts in their maps if they want so, when the map has come out.
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Blue_Camel
Blue_Camel


Famous Hero
posted May 06, 2003 09:56 PM
Edited By: Blue_Camel on 6 May 2003

Quote:
I think banning Immortality Potions is a "cheap" method to prevent rush. I don't mind about Immortality Potions, but seeing something being banned just to prevent rushing doesn't sound right. Use your imagination, I'm sure you people can come up with something better than that to make the map "un-rushable".

Make stronger guardians, make exploring more rewarding.

Btw, I just scripted today two quest huts. Artifact Merchant (it only buys, but it buys anything from potions to items and from scrolls to relics) and Altar of Sacrifice (very much like H3 one). The map should be ready for playtesting soon enough, so map makers are free to use these quest huts in their maps if they want so, when the map has come out.


dont be silly thunder, there's nothing wrong with banning potions of imm from the map.  I dont know about jinx's map, but the purpose of banning potions of imm in my map is to prevent complete god heroes and to have a bigger focus on creatures.  it will introduce completely new battle strategies, since you no longer can just throw your hero into the fire - you hafto take more care with him so that he doesnt die.  And insanity by insatiable already has such an artifact hut.  Altar of sacrifice does sound interesting though...  problem is being able to customize how many creatures you want to sacrifice.  in h3, you could sacrifice any number of the creatures in a certain stack to the altar.  in a quest hut such as you describe, it would be impossible to do this, since it would require literally HUNDREDS (perhaps over 1000) of conditional events and questions to accomplish.  Needless to say, even if you somehow had the time and the patience to do this, it would make the map size colossal making the map unplayable.  The only way you could do an altar of sacrifice with a quest hut is to ask if they want to sacrifice a set amount, such as 20 white tigers or something.

Also, the easiest way to make a map unrushable is to make the most valuable things on the map in each player's area.  The reason most maps are "rushable" is that the middle area contains powerful stuff, such as artifacts, a powerful town, or some such.  Thus capturing this middle on the way to the opponent gives the attacking player a big advantage.  But if the middle is not very good, then if the opponent chooses to attack you quickly, then while he is coming to you, you will be gaining powerful stuff that's on YOUR SIDE, thus when he gets to you, you will be more powerful than him.  Quite a simple concept, really
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Jinxer
Jinxer


Legendary Hero
*****
posted May 07, 2003 04:25 AM
Edited By: Jinxer on 6 May 2003

Yes Camel I agree with your reasoning for removing immortality.  It became even more evident in a recent game I played I seen a level 10 hero ( GM combat GM Melee) running around middle with 8 Immortality potions. Taking Dragon Cities and major art locals etc. That is plain silly. There is virtually no risk to a roaming hero like that because he just retreats for free if you engage him. Its kinda like having Vampires, you can take HUGE battles earlier than map is designed for you to be taking those battles. I think by removing immortality potions it makes the game more realistic.  On my map I intend to make it so you can gain like 4immortality total via quests etc. So you will ahve to make them count. Will you use them to take a Dragon city early?  OR save them for final battle?

Dont get me wrong I dont HATE immortality potions, but when ya buy hordes of them just to cheat your way thru a battle you otherwise couldnt handle it undermines the spirit of the game IMO.

For example, I wont mention his name, but in recent game an opponent of mine used 25 mana potions right before battle so they could have 400 spell points??? Great thinking I ahve to admit! I was impressed, but then I thought...kinda silly that that is possible.

Anyways, no immortality potions, or atleast a limited amount available I think will be a much nicer feature for all future maps.  To bad 3do didnt make it so we could just uncheck what could show up in blacksmith, would make it much nicer.

Jinxer

p.s.  On an after thought, maybe another option would be to make one of them black Market script thingys that allowes ya to buy as many Immo Potions as ya want but they cost ya $5,000 each.  Hehe then if ya can afford to run a hero around with 40,000 in immo potions so be it
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Tc_Fear
Tc_Fear


Famous Hero
posted May 07, 2003 09:02 AM

is it posible to make a shorter(3weeks) 'unrushable' map ??

p.s I never try to rush.but it hapens.btw its  easy to defend from 'rush?'
NORUSHTC

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Tc_Fear
Tc_Fear


Famous Hero
posted May 07, 2003 11:45 AM

also I made map with no rush 'Fatal Contraversy'.engoy it.

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valkyrica
valkyrica


Supreme Hero
posted May 07, 2003 12:18 PM

Banning immo potions is stupid, then your heroes will be dead meat every time you attempt to fight something somewhat strong on the map, make the map interesting, ban them, but put 5,6 in a distant spot on the map to make a player go and get them.

to blue camel : banning blacksmiths is stupid, for one it means no potions whatsoever, and second, no dwellings, no efreets, no behemots and so on

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Jinxer
Jinxer


Legendary Hero
*****
posted May 07, 2003 03:08 PM

Valkyrica,  I think that camel is intending on making citidel prebuilt, so to allow the normal build of all towns with out blacksmith.  AND SO what if your heroes die in a tuff battle, just rez them at home or nearest sanctuary. And if you take enough actualy creature army then you shouldnt lose your heroes.  You are just to used to fighting with only heroes. This will just promote more use of creatures and rethinking of battle strategies.  Just like in H3, of trying to lose as little creatures during game as possible. It used to be a SIN to lose a level 7 in H3.  But in H4 you can lose 2-3-4 what ever and no big deal, your heroes do 75% of the work anyways.

Also, valk I already mentioned it in my previous post, and since you requested it I will mention it again, that in my version of the no immortality potion map, I have quest huts that are called " Potion Shack " You can buy immortality potions there for $5,000 each. So you can still get them but at 5k a pop I am hoping they will only beable to be used very little. After several playtests of map, the price may go up depending on how rich the map turns out to be.

You are always telling me how I should adapt to the rush style, nows a good chance for all the rushers to prove there true talent in H4 and play these newer maps that cant be rushed in conventional ways. If they still find a way to rush then, I will be first to give to admit they da best.  

Jinxer
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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted May 07, 2003 09:12 PM
Edited By: Thunder on 7 May 2003

Insanity has Artifact Merchant? You mean Junk Art Tradepost? Sorry, but it doesn't buy everything. About Altar of Sacrifice, don't worry baby I'm an expert . Like I said, I've already made these quest huts. And I'm not so mad to start questioning player whether he wants to sacrifice 1 imp or two imps. If the player chooses to sacrifice, he sacrifices all creatures and/or artifacts hís hero possesses. This is much easier to both to the players and me. I doubt that anyone wants to start answering to thousands of silly questions whether they want to sacrifice this imp or not. The player simply leaves everything he doesn't want to sacrifice and then visits the quest hut. Like in H3, Death and Chaos (evil) can sacrifice only creatures, Life & Order & Nature can sacrifice only artifacts, whereas Might can sacrifice both creatures & artifacts.

You can prevent god heroes without banning Immortality Potions, see Charmers' Diplomacy. The player will gather literally swarms of creatures (albeit mainly 1st level) and there isn't that hero power boost ups. Only Treasure Chests can be found on islands and even the artifacts encourage to use creatures. And the map encourages to gather lots of creatures (in other words to make good use of Charm or Diplomacy skills) due to the Stone Elemental hut that will reward the player with Boots of Travel and Equestrian's Gloves when he has gathered lots of 'em.

And who the heck will use Archers or Barbarians if Immortality Potions get banned in the map? It mainly restrict strategical possibilities. Yes, I understand that too hero friendly maps do the same as well.

But like I said, I don't mind them. It does make a slightly different map that encourages different play. Ideally, people should not be complaining about plethora of too many maps that have somewhat identical strategies, they should instead be making maps that encourage other strategies.
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insatiable
insatiable


Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
posted May 07, 2003 09:40 PM

mathematics

literally swarms of creatures + heroesA
            VS
literally swarms of creatures + heroesB =

literally killed eachother creatures(=0) + heroes(A+B)=

heroesA vs heroesB

conclusionnly way of not producing God heroes,is preventing the production of God heroes(few teachers,stones,free boxes etcetcetctetdtt..)

and..i like idea of no armory.
we re not trying to solve anything making a map..just presenting alternates way of playing,right?


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Blue_Camel
Blue_Camel


Famous Hero
posted May 07, 2003 11:52 PM

thunder, what's your thing against banning imm potions ??
makes no sense.  If banning imm potions makes for fun and strategic game, why not do it?

And to the thing about archers/barbs - why wouldnt you make one?  they can still dish out some good damage, and they last just as long as a magic hero with GM combat.  Not to mention, there are other things in the game that can keep the hero alive for a while besides potions of imm, such as stat boosting artys, reg artys, potions of healing, various spells ...

And I dont think many will like your plan to simply have almost no powerups for heroes on the map.  I do think creatures should be more emphasized, but if you go to that extreme then the heroes are pointless, and game isnt fun.  Maybe somewhere in the middle is better.  The reason that the middle is better is that it requires the most skill out of a player - if a map is all hero powerups, then every player in the world will go for strong heroes.  if a map has almost no powerups, then every player in the world will go for creatures.  But if it is somewhere in the middle, the player has to consider whether he will go for heroes or creatures.  This is a lot more strategic than the first 2.  L4s or potions?  
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