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| Thread: 1st strike |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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IRh
Famous Hero
Lizard
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posted May 19, 2003 12:22 AM |
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Edited By: IRh on 22 May 2003
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1st strike
EDIT: comments added
I wonder how important is the first strike in battle of two stacks? Yes, the 1st makes some damage, and the retallation is made by reduced count of creatures. But the 1st stack also strikes last, being hit 2 times. Problem...
// Note: 1 att 2 ret 2 att 1 ret
OK. Let's imagine we have 2 large stacks with H hitpoints. Let _a_ be the attack coef a = CreatureDmg/CreatureHP. So, stack does aH damage. (4X, a = 0.25 for Angels)
Let's consider a one turn of battle between two large stacks. So, damage is proportional to HP.
Initially: 1:H 2:H (HP of 2 stacks)
1) +-- aH // 1st attacks 2nd, does aH Dmg
1: H 2: H - aH // Stacks HPs after attack
2) 2x --+ a(H-aH) // 2nd does a(H-aH) Dmg twice (retal + attack)
1: H - 2aH + 2aaH 2: H - aH
3) +-- a(H - 2aH + 2a2H)
// After one round stacks HPs are:
1: H - 2aH + 2a^2H
2: H - 2aH + 2a^2H - 2a^3H
OK. We see that 2nd stack loses 2a^3 of it (1/32 for Angels). The extra damage of 1st stack is a^2 of 2nd's damage (1/16 ~ 6% Angelic).
Not so much, yeah? It's cause retailations.
Some more numbers:
1st stack of Imps does ~+14%.
1st stack of Azure Dragons does <+1%.
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted May 19, 2003 04:09 AM |
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hmmm i get enough weird math at school, please translate all of that in english 
EDIT: typos... i hate this friggin floodprotect btw. It takes 5secs to see that your post has weird spelling, then you gotta wait another minute and a half before you can do something about it. sucks
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Odvin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 19, 2003 02:04 PM |
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Quote:
EDIT: typos... i hate this friggin floodprotect btw. It takes 5secs to see that your post has weird spelling, then you gotta wait another minute and a half before you can do something about it. sucks
Grab some more red stars and get rid of floodprotect 
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LordTitan
Famous Hero
Hit Dice: 76d12+608 HP
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posted May 19, 2003 05:04 PM |
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That has absalootly nothing to do with the topic, but I don't understand this math thing he made up either...
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Spaek the Titan
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IRh
Famous Hero
Lizard
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posted May 19, 2003 07:13 PM |
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I don't see someone really needs explanations...
Summary: the 1st stack has a little advantage. It does damage more than 2nd, the difference is:
(CreatureDmg / CreatureHP)^2 * 2ndStackDmg
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted May 19, 2003 07:20 PM |
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Quote:
I don't see someone really needs explanations...
Summary: the 1st stack has a little advantage. It does damage more than 2nd, the difference is:
(CreatureDmg / CreatureHP)^2 * 2ndStackDmg
hm so mean when both heroes have same stats and skills and we both have 100 trogs thn you have an advantage if you trogsnow mine first ?
OH MY GOD THATS SO GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!!
thank you so much for enlightening me - you are da bomb !!!!
nowimprovedabitinskillschaaf
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AndiAngelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted May 19, 2003 08:51 PM |
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Damn, when i had Archangels and my opp Archdevils i always waited  Is it really true, if i strike first it gives me an advantage? Coool now i will finally get something done 
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lord_crusader
Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
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posted May 19, 2003 09:18 PM |
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Quote:
I wonder how important is the first strike in battle of two stacks? Yes, the 1st makes some damage, and the retallation is made by reduced count of creatures. But the 1st stack also strikes last, being hit 2 times. Problem...
OK. Let's imagine we have 2 large stacks with H hitpoints. Let _a_ be the attack coef = Dmg/HP. So, stack does aH damage. (4X, a = 0.25 for Angels)
Let's consider a one turn of battle between two large stacks. So, damage is proportional to HP.
Initially: 1:H 2:H (HP of stacks)
1) +-- aH
1: H 2: H - aH
2) 2x --+ a(H-aH) (retal + attack)
1: H - 2aH + 2aaH 2: H - aH
3) +-- a(H - 2aH + 2a2H)
1: H - 2aH + 2a^2H
2: H - 2aH + 2a^2H - 2a^3H
OK. We see that 2nd stack loses 2a^3 of it (1/32 for Angels). The extra damage of 1st stack is a^2 of damage (1/16 ~ 6% Angelic).
Not so much, yeah? It's cause retailations.
Some more numbers:
1st stack of Imps does ~+14%.
1st stack of Azure Dragons does <+1%.
You teory is right, but you don't consider the most important thing here, if you have an archangel's stack and you send you first attack first than the other one, well the archangel must receive the attack not only of the reteliate and the turn of the creature that was hittin in the first time, also receive the attack of the all others creatures , I think you can do this comparision with shooter I think is most useful...
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Dig Out Your Soul
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IRh
Famous Hero
Lizard
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posted May 20, 2003 02:12 PM |
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Remember, crusader, it's only theory.
2Others: please read what I write before replying. I give the numbers, not empirical "the first stack has advantages". Waiting AAs vs AAs causes the enemy to do 6% more damage, but not 1 or 60. That I wanted to say.
Devils are the other thing cause they don't retal.
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Wub
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted May 21, 2003 01:49 AM |
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Edited By: Wub on 20 May 2003
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I actually think this is quite interesting. I must admit that it took me a while to understand everything, but it makes sense. What these formulas also say is that the more damage a stack does in comparison to its hitpoints, the more it needs or profits from a first strike. This means that, for example, especially stronghold with its offensive creatures and barbarian heroes, profits from a first strike. Or that Crag Hack needs first strike more than Tazar. I think (but correct me when I’m wrong) that this also shows that Tazar can take out neutral monster stacks that shoot (lots of grand elves for example) with fewer losses than Crag Hack. I admit that this is still not a sensational finding, but at least it shows more than just that first strike is advantageous.
You can also use this to show that, very occasionally, it is bad to strike first and that defend is a better option. For example: 1 angel vs 1 angel without spells. Doesn’t happen often of course, but I had such situations in specially designed maps (only works vs AI of course).
@IRh: Even though your math itself is flawless, there is still a problem with your calculation. Because of this, the exact numbers of your calculations will not be completely true. You assume that hitpoints and damage are completely proportional, which is false. For example, an angel with 5 hitpoints will do as much damage as an angel with 200 hitpoints. If you let a stack of 3 zombies fight a stack of 3 zombies, you will see that in the first round first strike does not matter, while your formula says it does. I still found your post very interesting though.
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted May 21, 2003 02:50 AM |
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Quote:
What these formulas also say is that the more damage a stack does in comparison to its hitpoints, the more it needs or profits from a first strike.
thats not intresting at all - thats just common (heroes ) sense lol. formulars and calculators dun mean a snow. you guys should put ur calculators aside and acutally start playing
Motorschaaf
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IRh
Famous Hero
Lizard
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posted May 21, 2003 01:47 PM |
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Quote:
I think (but correct me when I’m wrong) that this also shows that Tazar can take out neutral monster stacks that shoot (lots of grand elves for example) with fewer losses than Crag Hack.
Quote:
You can also use this to show that, very occasionally, it is bad to strike first and that defend is a better option. For example: 1 angel vs 1 angel without spells.
Quote:
You assume that hitpoints and damage are completely proportional, which is false. For example, an angel with 5 hitpoints will do as much damage as an angel with 200 hitpoints.
Thank you, Wub. I see I must explain some things.
First, I suppose that monsters retaillate and strike once, this it important (not for Vamps, Crusaders, shooters etc). In this case the advantae of first strike is compenced by disadvantage of last (1Att-2Ret-2Att-1Ret), for it is already striked twice. The adv of 1st stack seems less obvious, isn't it?
Second, I suppose we deal a LARGE number of creatures. Only in this case the proportionality is applicable. In 1 vs 1, Wub is right, it doesn't matter.
In case of non-retaillating creatures the first strike is more important, for the 1st stack will ALLWAYS strike 1st. Defending is, the same way, not a good idea.
Really:
1:H 2:H // Stacks HP before battle
1) +-- aH // 1st makes aH Dmg to 2nd
1:H 2:H-aH // Stacks HPs
2) --+ aH-a2H // Attack
1: H - aH + a2H
2: H - aH
So, 1st has (Dmg/HP)^2 * StackHP hitpoints more.
Or, 2nd does (1 - Dmg/HP) of 1st's Damage.
For "non-retal-angels" 2nds will do 25% LESS damage! (instead of 6%). No, IMHO defending not works here...
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Hexa
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted May 21, 2003 02:10 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
What these formulas also say is that the more damage a stack does in comparison to its hitpoints, the more it needs or profits from a first strike.
thats not intresting at all - thats just common (heroes ) sense lol. formulars and calculators dun mean a snow. you guys should put ur calculators aside and acutally start playing
Motorschaaf
And u should let people do their own thang!@
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If you want to realize your dreams >>> you have to wake up!@
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted May 21, 2003 02:39 PM |
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There's more to HoMM than just plain playing you know.
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Yolk and God bless.
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My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted May 21, 2003 02:52 PM |
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Quote:
There's more to HoMM than just plain playing you know.
no - playing is what its all about.(as far as i know its a game ) you can analyse the game 24/7 with your calculators and im sure you still dont have a clue when it actually comes to a battle.
numbers, forumulas and so on wont teach ya really a thing. (if so you must really suck bad ) .only one thing is the key to really get to know homm: experience (and of course i dun mean playing the campaings on 200% )
Quote:
And u should let people do their own thang!@
why should i ? you should know me better i wont shut my mounth if some noob comes along and clams something obvious to be the discovery of the year .
Motorschaaf
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted May 21, 2003 02:57 PM |
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Well, tell me - of two equal players, one knowing his numbers and one relying on intuition only, who would win?
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Yolk and God bless.
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My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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AndiAngelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted May 21, 2003 03:13 PM |
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Well, tell me - of two equal players, one knowing his numbers and one relying on intuition only, who would win?
intuition, coz combat statistics tell you enuf if you got em enabled, and stats you can always look on in battle (if you a noob )
man you noobs needa learn 1 thing: if a vet like schaaf tells you that numbers dont mean a snow than they DONT mean a snow, 1st strike can be the win or your doom, you only learn that on the battlefield and not on your snowty calculator lol...
if heroes would be a game that you can learn on papers or made battles like that Thundertosser once set it up, than there wouldnt be a about 0.0001% chance that 1 of you noob tossers beats Everquestschaaf in a fair game lol...
Hexa: yeah and you finally could be a real mod and care for all the crap that isnt deleted here, instead of just jumping on guys you dont like lmao...
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted May 21, 2003 03:16 PM |
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Quote:
Well, tell me - of two equal players, one knowing his numbers and one relying on intuition only, who would win?
the one with intuition of course.
because intuition is that what seperates the average player from a master. judging the given situation and do whats needed. and not doing what a calculator told you to.
every homm game is different and thats why intuition/experience is the only ability you can rely on 100%
Motorschaaf
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted May 21, 2003 03:44 PM |
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Um, ok, I admit it - you're right. But there surely will be chances for me to make a vet think twice, that's for sure .
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Yolk and God bless.
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My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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Hexa
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted May 21, 2003 05:08 PM |
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Quote:
Hexa: yeah and you finally could be a real mod and care for all the crap that isnt deleted here, instead of just jumping on guys you dont like lmao...
Me jumping on people?
Try looking in the mirror man. U two jump on every person that makes a comment which in your mind is noobish!@
Try to be less childess about it huh?
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If you want to realize your dreams >>> you have to wake up!@
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