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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Heroes V: Specialist Heroes
Thread: Heroes V: Specialist Heroes
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted July 28, 2003 04:24 AM bonus applied.

Heroes V: Specialist Heroes

Following the demise of heroes in combat, and the introduced Heroes IV RPG elements, heroes are to be subject to changes concerning skills, classes, and development altogether. To compensate for the heroes absence in battle, there needs to be another major part of Heroes gameplay they need to be apart of. Because combat is out of the question, the adventure map is the only other available option. However, heroes themselves have broad objectives, and not usually confining themselves to one particular class. Heroes as we know them from previous series have ruled the adventure map by themselves, but, I believe it is time for subsidiaries to emerge. These lesser beings will not make major heroes unnecessary – far from it – my goal is for them to aid Heroes in their search of the adventure map, in whatever area. By achieving this, I hope to raise the importance of heroes in the game, to make them a more valuable asset, not just a compulsory one.

These ‘Specialist Heroes’ will be based upon one primary skill, and can only learn the secondary skills within that skill. For example, a scout would have scouting as the primary skill, then would be able to learn pathfinding, seamanship, and stealth. The specialist hero cannot learn skills outside of the scouting primary skill. This may lead people to believe that it would be too easy to fully develop a specialist hero. This is not so, only some specialist heroes may partake in combat, but all experience gained must be done so from adventure map objects. The specialist heroes involved in combat must accompany the hero, therefore never receive the experience themselves. This makes the process quite balanced so that the specialist heroes do not in fact gain levels too quickly.

Another obstacle I needed to overcome was when these specialist heroes met: what would happen? While my opinion on this issue may not be likened to your own, I believe it is the best way of resolving the matter. When two specialist heroes meet, a unique occurrence will take place between them. However, it is indeed quite complicated. Two scouts meet, as an example, a screen would pop-up, as per usual, and you would be given options. You can sell, for a price, the land you’ve discovered with your scout, and the computer can do the same to you. You can accept or decline the computer’s offer, and you can offer nothing. More on this later.

Specialist Heroes are recruited from their own structure, not from the tavern like major heroes. A scout would be recruited from the stable’s lodge, while a Noble would be recruited from a palace. These structures are built as additions to other structures in the town, and will cost around 2,000 gold. A maximum of 2 specialist heroes may be recruited from the structure. There are no separate portraits for these heroes; Xyron could be a major hero in one game and a specialist hero in another scenario. A town is allowed to build only 2 of these specialist hero structures, forcing the player to choose wisely concerning which ones he/she wants.

The primary parameters as such for specialist heroes are below: (Same as major heroes)
1. Spell Power: Affects duration of non–Direct Damage spells, power (damage) of direct damage spells.
2. Knowledge: Determines number of spell points the hero has.
3. Magic Resistance: As in Heroes IV
4. Might Defence: As in Heroes III (Ranged and melee are together)
5. Might Attack: As in Heroes III (Ranged and melee are together)
6. Magic Attack: Counters magic resistance. For example, if the opponent you are casting the spell on has 50 magic resistance, the magic attack number could be able to make the spell successful. For instance, if the Magic Resistance is 50, and so is the Magic attack, then there would be 50:50 chance of the spell working. If there is 1 magic resistance, and 50 magic attack, the ratio would be 2:100. (98 times out of 100 times the spell works.)

I plan for there to be a total of 11 specialist heroes aligned to the 7 magic types, plus the two major adventure map skills; nobility and scouting. Other skills in Heroes IV concerning combat, e.g. tactics and combat will still be included, as they will just supplement the hero’s power in terms of the combat skill, and in the tactics skill, be able to provide more advanced strategies.

Cleric: Life Magic
The Cleric hails from the holy Haven castle, and the group spend their time praying and waiting for a sign from God. They specialise in the Life Magic skill, and its subsidiaries. These are: Life Magic, Resurrection, Spirituality, and Healing.
A Cleric, because of his lifetime devoted to spiritual studying, is able to concentrate his teachings into more specific areas of the magic. This means that he is able to utilise resurrection skills to twice the maximum level of a major hero, thus raising more creatures and hit points. Healing is also doubled, and therefore able to gain 20 hit points and regenerate 4 every day at the basic level, this increases by 4 every level the cleric advances. Spirituality is also affected by this diligent training, however not in the ways the others have been. Spirituality still increases the proficiency of Life spells by 20%, but also, when casting against his opposite alignment(or in a battle against them), the expertise of casting is once again increased by 100%. So, if a Cleric was casting resurrection on his angels while against a death army, and he had basic spirituality, the affect would be increased from 20% to 40%.
As with all specialist heroes, the Cleric has a number of special abilities, 3, to be exact.
- A Cleric is able to, with grandmaster resurrection, resurrect a number of HP (belonging to a pikeman, for example) double it, and, if the hit points are sufficient, they can be resurrected as a more powerful creature of the Cleric’s choice. So 30 hit points, x2 = 60, therefore enough to resurrect one monk.
- Just like the luck ability, approximately once every 3 combats, the ‘Hand of God’ (basically the holy form of the rainbow) touches them, and with their attack, x3 damage is dealt. However, it is possible that the hand of God won’t appear for 7 combats, then come in a flurry for the next 4.
- The ‘Holy Transfer’ spell can be used once per combat, and the spell points are replenished (separately) by 1 every day. It is a spell that only Clerics may use. It costs 30 spell points, and it allows the cleric to transfer all of the special abilities and statistics to the major hero for the combat. In essence, there are two heroes which are devoted to life magic in the one combat.
When two clerics meet, they will be able to swap skills. So, if Cleric one has master healing, and Cleric two has advanced spirituality, a trade can be made, and other compensation comes in the form of gold. However, neither of them needs to trade anything, and the player can decline the offer.

Archwizard: Order Magic
The Archwizard is an advanced form of ‘Wizard King’, and this position is reached after many years practicing the Magical arts of Order Magic. It is the most powerful position assumed by a spellcaster.
The secondary skills of Order Magic which are learnt by an Archwizard are Enchantment, Wizardry, and Charm. Enchantment is affected in a very similar way to the Cleric. However, with Enchantment, development begins slowly on basic level, at 5 more spell points, but is +25 on every step. So advanced is 30, then expert is 55, etc. It ends up adding 105 spell points, 5 more than the Cleric. Wizardry is again increased in a way likened to that of the Cleric. The difference being Wizardry for an Archwizard, the effectiveness of spells is increased by 25%. At a basic skill level, Charm for an Archwizard allows him to convert 20% of the force, and for 80% of their full price. Every level, the former increases by 10%, and the latter decreases by the opposite.
Special Abilties:
- Using the (newly created) Charm spell on the adventure map, an Archwizard is able to recruit 80% of the enemy force at 20% of the full cost. This can only be used once on small and medium maps, and twice on large and extra large maps.
- A spell, in combat, which takes up a whole turn, focuses all the spells in an Archwizard’s artillery, and triples their effectiveness, however, this costs 40 spell points, and all spells cost double the spell points to cast. Duration is for the whole combat.
- As an Archwizard, there is a unique spell that only they can use, and that is to triple a creature of his choice, granting them ½ the HP of the original. If it were used on a titan, there would be one with 210 HP, and 2 with 105 HP. This costs 30 spell points.
When two Archwizards collide, the charm ability is able to be used. However, the more powerful Archwizard can charm creatures from the opposing army with more effectiveness than the less powerful archwizard. This means the weaker one ultimately loses out. The Charm spell can be used in conjunction with this effect.

I will post the remaining 5 magic heroes in posts to come in the future rather than in this initial post to save you from bloodshot eyes.

Scout: Scouting
These masters of travel specialise in the scouting primary skill, and have spent their days as a nomad, scouring the lands and searching for anything they find to be of value. Scouts, in addition to scouting, learn pathfinding, seamanship, and stealth. With every level of scouting learnt, Scouts have a radius, which is increased by 2 hexes. At the basic level, they can see heroes/creatures with advanced stealth, and so on. (The rest is the same as Heroes IV). Pathfinding allows the scout to third his movement penalty. This continues as such: 3/7, 4/7, 2/3, 4/6. Seamanship is greatly affected by a scout’s expertise, every level, it is increased 50%, then 75%, then 100%, the maximum amount is 500%. The stealth skill works in very much the same fashion for a major hero. However, scouts, if they possess an equal level of stealth as the enemy does scouting, they will be invisible. So, if a hero has grandmaster scouting, and the scout has grandmaster stealth, the scout will be invisible.
- If a scout retrieves a movement-enhancing artifact, such as the boots of travel or equestrian’s gloves, the effects of these are doubled.
- If the grandmaster status is achieved in all skills, the effects of the skills will be doubled. (Extremely difficult to obtain).
- Scouts have the ability to buy a spellbook (like all specialist heroes) and if they have grandmaster scouting, the scout will receive spells like visions, view all mines, view all resources, etc.
When scouts meet, they will be offered to trade their knowledge for gold. Their knowledge is defined as the radius of the area they have uncovered (excluding their castle). You can accept or decline the offer, and make one yourself if you please.

Noble: Nobility
Often regarded as the most loyal and venerable dignitaries in the land, Nobles have built up strong ethical and moral skills by treating all people equally. With this, comes their knowledge in the field of Nobility.
For the nobility primary skill, the Noble is recognised as, not only a governor, but a sovereign, and, as a result, increases the creature growth by 20%. Nobles are very big on the money side of matters. They receive 150 gold per day, plus another 15 for every level of the hero. This increases by 150 every tier of the skill. So if a noble was level 5, and had expert estates, he would be earning 525 gold per day. Nobles with mining produce 4 units of ore and wood every week, and every additional level allows them to produce another resource for 2 per week. So Grandmaster mining would give you 4 ore and wood, and 2 crystal, mercury, sulphur and gems per week. Basic diplomacy allows the Noble to convert 40% of the enemy force, with a maximum of 200 hit points, which is heightened by 20% of the level of the enemy. The troops cost 70% of their full price.
- Creature growth is increased by 50% if the Noble has achieved grandmaster proficiency in more than 1 skill.
- If the Noble has grandmaster mining, he can double the income of resources for that week. This is can only be used once in small and medium maps, and twice in large and extra large maps.
- A Noble may choose to use diplomacy on an opposing players army (including castles) prior to battle occurring. This is only possible if grandmaster diplomacy is learnt, and has the same restrictions as the above special ability.
In the instance of two Nobles coming across each other, the less experienced noble will be forced to relinquish control of an artifact, passing it on to a more worthy recipient. If the hero has no artifacts, a tier of a skill will be lost to the stronger Noble.

Pugilist: Combat
The Pugilist has devoted his life to years of physical rigour, which are a credit to his fighting capabilities. Pugilists are extremely powerful warriors, specialising in all forms of physical combat.
Similar to a barbarian in fighting qualities, although much more civilized, the Pugilist’s combat skill increases its attack and defence by 30, increasing another 10 every level. However, this attack and defence is passed on to the creatures like in Heroes III. Archery provides the pugilist with an attack skill of 20 added onto the general attack, however, the attack skill for archery can only be taken into account for a ranged attacking creature (displayed in brackets). This also reduces the enemy’s ranged attack by 2.0. In Heroes V, Magic Attack and Magic Resistance have replaced the Melee skill. Magic resistance works in the same way as Heroes IV, 30% magic resistance on the basic level, 20% for every level gained. Magic attack is gained in exactly the same fashion, but if the magic resistance of the opponent was expert, and magic attack for the player was grandmaster, the magic resistance of the enemy would only be at 40% instead of 60%.
- If the Pugilist has archery and combat both in the grandmaster level, their effects are doubled.
- If fighting against a stronghold army with a barbarian hero, all his creatures deal 50% damage to the others, no matter what alignment they are. This is also in effect if there are two pugilists facing off.
- The Pugilist receives double effects from combat increasing adventure map objects such as the veteran’s guild.
When two pugilists encounter each other alone on the adventure map (very rare since they would need to be part of an army to use their skills) a fight will erupt in much the same manner has two heroes fighting in Heroes IV. There would be no balancing issues since they are the only heroes who can fight (and they cannot fight against creatures).

Strategist: Tactics
Often secluded in his battlements playing chess, the strategist is a master tactician who knows the best position for an army, and when it should attack and make its move.
Using my own formula of the main tactics skill, which is rather similar to Heroes III where the setting up of the creatures prior to battle was required. For example, expert tactics allows units to move even further out into the battlefield, and protective spells like firewall and quicksand can be cast, but they act as the heroes (or creature’s) turn in the tactics section. Offense, at basic level, increases the combat and ranged attacks of creatures by 15% under the Strategist’s control, this increases by 10% every level. Defense is the same, however it affects the creature’s combat and ranged defense. Leadership grants the creatures under the command of a Strategist +2 morale and luck, increasing by +1 every level.
- The Strategist is able to become proficient in spells such as visions in his spellbook without learning the generic magic types.
- The Strategist can enter into a battle, and then make the choice to flee if he deems the enemy too powerful, however, this has the same limitations as the others (only once per small and medium and twice per large and extra large).
- Once every skill is in the grandmaster status, the Strategist can choose a skill from the combat primary skill to become skilled in.
When two strategists encounter each other, one strategist picks a skill from the other to become better at, and vice versa. So if a strategist has advanced tactics and the other has master tactics, by the end of the day (duration = digging) the advanced tactics will become master. Of course, they are paid for the services, or they can seek compensation by choosing a skill of the others to excel in.

Thanks for reading this far. If you believe that the bonuses I give these specialist heroes are too great, please make your opinion heard. Also if you’d like to comment on the ideas I have proposed, feel free to do so. Bearing in mind I still have 5 other magic heroes to complete, you can make your own format ideas for those also. General questions and comments will be answered as soon as possible.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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vladpopescu79
vladpopescu79


Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
posted July 29, 2003 11:47 PM bonus applied.

First of all, I’m all by your side for this idea of secondary specialist heroes. Also your idea of granting them only one primary skill with an array of secondary skills in which he masters his abilities is a good one. One of the main issues is of course, as you anticipated, how powerful should they be allowed to become.
One decisive factor with regard to that is how will they be added to the armies. If they wander all al by themselves, can they command armies like an ordinary hero?
To answer first these two questions: since they are specialists, and they should be cheaper than other heroes, with only one skill to be developed, they should not be allowed to command armies, since this is a priviledge of the good old heroes, in the spirit of the heroes3. As for the first question, if they get to be quite powerful, as you project them, HyDrA, they could fill up one rank in the army. if they are a little more limited they could have a special place „to the right of the father”, beside the main hero.

Now to comment your ideas about the special classes:

„A maximum of 2 specialist heroes may be recruited from the structure”
Why do you want to limit their number at two? If the game will maintain a limited number of possible armies, and if the specialists at level 1 are quite weak, then you will be forced to buy only a couple of them and develop them as much as possible, bearing in mind that the nice stuff comes in the end (I’m talking about the double skills that you forsee for grandmaster skills).

I agree though with the limited choice of buildings for recruiting them.Also the primary parameters are fine with me.

Now for the cleric:
(I will only comment the things that I don’t agree with, the rest are OK):

„if the hit points are sufficient, they can be resurrected as a more powerful creature of the Cleric’s choice”
this doesn’t seem ok, since it means a steady improvement of your army, in the spirit of the vampires in h4, and I think that is too powerful. If I have grandmaster ressurection, I will chase evrey creature on map, engage it, let my stack slaughtered by them and then ressurect them as a more powerfull stack. This option should be at least more limited.
then the „Hand of God” is too powerful in my opinion, a double damage should be better.

In the case of the archwizard:
the charm skill is a magical one and it means the persuation of creatures to join the hero. So in my opinion the creatures joined should come free of charge. that is the difference between charm and diplomacy. the latter involves only sweettalk, no magic, so the noble also has to pay for services. but the wizard uses magic, not money. Since the charm brings creaures for free, the number of creaures should be smaller than those obtained from the diplomacy.

the scout:
the seamanship enhanced with 500% is a little too much, but I have to agree that it comes quite late in the game, and at that time it won’t make much difference (if we decide that the specialist is not allowed to transport armies)
the main problem with the scout in your system is that although he has a spell book and he can cast spells, he doesn’t have any skill to do that. How do you decide the number of spell points he has, and how powerful is a spell casted by him?
(I would grant him the power of casting spells like town portal, dimmension door, fly, spell that should be available only to him). these spells should be aquired from a special annex of the tower of spells in each castle.

„If fighting against a stronghold army with a barbarian hero, all his creatures deal 50% damage to the others, no matter what alignment they are. This is also in effect if there are two pugilists facing off.”
I don’t understand at all. You mean 50% less? Why?

The strategist:

„The Strategist can enter into a battle, and then make the choice to flee if he deems the enemy too powerful, however, this has the same limitations as the others (only once per small and medium and twice per large and extra large).”

That is fine, but at a higher level of that skill, I would allow him to battle a little and then to be able to retreat in a special mode. He can retreat at a certain cost, but this cost will be expressed in some sacrificed creatures, not money. For example he engages some dragons. He has an army of angels, monks, archers and peasants(just an example). If the dragons take a heavy toll, he can leave the battlefield in an orderly manner, leaving behind some peasants to be sluoghtered and resqueing this way the rest of the army. the better the skill, the fewer the peasants. The whole issue should be computed in number of hitpoints to be relinquished.

So, these are so far my comments; I’m waiting for the other classes of heroes to be posted by you. Good job so far!

____________
MANE, TEKEL, FARES

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted July 31, 2003 01:58 PM bonus applied.

the fleeing from combat for the strategist is what i might have an idea for.

you choose a part of your army, and if that can live on it's own for e.g. 1 round on the battlefield, then the rest of your army can retreat.

so it would be wasteful to retreat unsucessfully.

hmm.. maybe the creatures would also be able to do some morale trick, e.g. you pick some pikemen to cover your retreat, but the pikemen get scared or feel that they are unjustly left to die on the battlefield, or they are suspicious of your cause (imho classical morale effects) and refuse (like e.g. homm2&3 panic freeze). or they might decide to flee(and disappear) when they are left on their own, before the 1 round (or some other suitable number of rounds) is over.

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Dragon_Slayer
Dragon_Slayer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
toss toss toss
posted August 03, 2003 02:40 AM

For those of you who do not understand or are confused about what the HYDRA is saying let me explain using some everyday examples

A hero is like a supermarket. Supermarkets sell just about everything just as how heroes can learn just about everything. A specialist hero is more like a bakery. The bakery only specialises in making bread and cakes, a specialist hero only specialises in one primary skill which means a hero with GM Death magic would have weaker spells than a specialist hero with GM Death magic.

However unlike normal heroes, specialist heroes must be recruited from their own structure and have a maximum of two.

I believe that specialist heroes would be a nice addition to Heroes 5.

If only 3DO would listen to our ideas and put more in the game and not rush to release it...
____________

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soccerfeva
soccerfeva


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
banned
posted August 03, 2003 03:35 PM


bonus applied-sorry to go off topic,but this was sooo good!
____________

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted August 06, 2003 11:29 AM

Continuation of Specialist Heroes

Necrotic: Death Magic
The Necrotics have spent their time studying the secrets of the un-dead, and the mystery of the dark arts. Their diligent study has led them to possess archaic and uncanny powers, more intense than any other necromancer could hope to conjure.
The magic heroes obtain many of the same bonuses for their individual magic enhancers, which are, in this case, occultism and demonology, however the large change comes with the special secondary skill, necromancy. The basic level of occultism allows the Necrotic to gain 20 spell points, and increase spell point recovery by 4 per day. Every additional level adds another 20 spell points and an additional 4 spell point recovery. Demonology enables the Necrotic to increase the effectiveness of its spells by 40%, augmenting another 40% for each level gained thereafter. The Necrotic’s specialty, necromancy can be used much more powerfully now than with a necromancer. The first level allows the Necrotic to raise the creatures as skeletons, and it increases with each of the six levels in Heroes V. So advanced = level 2, expert, level 3 and 4, master, level 5, and grandmaster, level 6 creatures. The amount of creatures raised is much higher than previous instances, and the Necrotic can choose, at any level, which creature he’d like the opponent’s to be resurrected as.
- Occurring once in any sized map, the Necrotic has the capability to transform all of the defeated army into the creatures of its choice (skills allowing) when Grandmaster Necromancy is achieved.
- If fighting alongside a Necromancer in an army, the Necromancy skill effects are doubled, provided the necromancer has necromancy.
- Once per combat, the Necrotic can raise ½ of any enemy stack to become part of its army. After combat, the Necrotic is asked if it would like to keep that unit (if there are no slots) or dismiss them.
When two Necrotics meet, the stronger, more powerful one is able to offer his services, and offer the less experienced one some skills in exchange for gold. The usual rules apply.

Vladpopescu79

“First of all, I’m all by your side for this idea of secondary specialist heroes. Also your idea of granting them only one primary skill with an array of secondary skills in which he masters his abilities is a good one.”

Thankyou. It was actually you who triggered me to create this thread, and our discussion and consensus of the ‘scout’ hero that we discussed in ‘Heroes V: A New Beginning’. Thanks to you for helping me start this thread.

“One of the main issues is of course, as you anticipated, how powerful should they be allowed to become.”

Indeed. I am endeavouring to make the specialist heroes quite important, but not as significant as the major heroes. The difference is the intensity of their individual skills, and with their restrictions, it is better if the specialists are more powerful than majors in one only primary skill. Despite the specialties I have assigned, major heroes still have more power, more privileges, and are overall more useful.

“One decisive factor with regard to that is how will they be added to the armies. If they wander all al by themselves, can they command armies like an ordinary hero?”

I had envisaged that they did not have as much power has a hero, and therefore, the specialists cannot command armies, due to their lack of experience in all walks of life. Because they are so specialised, they cannot care for an army and harness their powerful abilities at the same time. I believe I did mention that in the initial post, and it appears we are in agreeance with this issue anyway.

“As for the first question, if they get to be quite powerful, as you project them, HyDrA, they could fill up one rank in the army. if they are a little more limited they could have a special place „to the right of the father”, beside the main hero.”

In your words, specialist heroes are placed to the right of the father. They don’t fill an army slot since they cannot actually fight in the battle. There should be 2 hero slots, which can be taken up with 2 major heroes or 1 major and one specialist. I believe having them next to the major hero on the sidelines helps build up assimilation between the two and that they work as a team, and the specialist hero is not a minion, merely a lesser hero.

Parameters

“Why do you want to limit their number at two?”

I believe two specialist heroes of the same type per castle should be sufficient. If the player wants more of a specific hero, then a new castle must be obtained. I am also contemplating having adventure map structures for each of the specialist heroes, where one is provided.

“then you will be forced to buy only a couple of them and develop them as much as possible, bearing in mind that the nice stuff comes in the end”

I am not saying you can only have 2 specialist heroes. Only 2 of the same type. So, if gold allows, you could have 2 Necrotics, 2 Pugilists, 2 Scouts, 2 Nobles, etc. Which can all be roaming around, or all be paired with a major hero. In theory, you can have a maximum of 12 specialist heroes. 3 magic, one your own and the other two from neighbouring alignments, then Scouts, Nobles, and Strategists, which are generic. Also, if you have less specialist heroes, it would force you to develop them more fully, and therefore acquire the nice bonuses, so I believe it is better this way.

Cleric

“this doesn’t seem ok, since it means a steady improvement of your army, in the spirit of the vampires in h4, and I think that is too powerful.”

Hmmmm. Yes, you are probably correct here. Maybe it should be limited to once on small and medium maps and twice on large and extra large maps. I too can see the repercussions of having this specialty freely available for the Cleric’s use. Yes, I hadn’t thought of the let myself be killed so I can become stronger strategy many people could easily employ to gain a stronger army, and that isn’t strategic at all.

“„Hand of God” is too powerful in my opinion, a double damage should be better.”

I don’t believe so. The affect luck has is double damage, and if the Hand of God were to revert to double damage, then it would be superfluous and wouldn’t make a difference. By having triple damage I believe It sets it apart from the rest. Additionally, it is only for one random attack, and it could be 50 Black Dragons finishing off 50 peasants, and in that case it wouldn’t make a difference, and the opportunity is lost.

Archwizard

“the charm skill is a magical one and it means the persuation of creatures to join the hero. So in my opinion the creatures joined should come free of charge.”

Yes, I would agree with you actually. However, this would mean that the percentage of the force that is ‘charmed’ will be less than that of the force which is been subject to diplomacy. So, I’d be inclined to lower the percentage of the cost price to 0, and then lower the percentage gained by the same amount. So if it was 70% at 30% cost price, then it would be 40% at 0% cost price.

“Since the charm brings creaures for free, the number of creaures should be smaller than those obtained from the diplomacy.”

Yes, I also find that to be very logical .It wouldn’t make any sense for diplomacy, since if the creatures were physically asked to join the army, and for a fee, then more should come than if they were put under a spell-type effect.

Scout

“the seamanship enhanced with 500% is a little too much, but I have to agree that it comes quite late in the game, and at that time it won’t make much difference (if we decide that the specialist is not allowed to transport armies)”

I would disagree with your first phrase of 500% being too much. Generally, sea travel does not come into the equation for many maps, for two reasons:
1. No water
2. Not much water
The maps where there are large amounts of water, such as Sea Politics or Unhappy Times, then this would come in handy after the specialist has been around awhile and amassed much experience. The benefit of this is not always able to be used, and so I believe that, when it is, there needs to be a large bonus to make it worthwhile. I had believed from the beginning that specialists cannot control armies on their own, so this means a hero will also be with them, unless they are by themselves without an army. (Which would be logical for a scout)

“the main problem with the scout in your system is that although he has a spell book and he can cast spells, he doesn’t have any skill to do that. How do you decide the number of spell points he has, and how powerful is a spell casted by him?”

Indeed, I was facing that same quandary when I was writing about the Scout. Although, the spells that the scout would learn won’t be influenced by power (town portal, visions, view all mines, etc.) so the only problem is finding out how he can learn them. Maybe his immense scouting knowledge has meant that he was able to cast them due to GM scouting?

“these spells should be aquired from a special annex of the tower of spells in each castle.”

I’d agree here. A special annex would be in order. Because JVC said there was going to be a ‘generic’ magic class, it would be safe to say those sort of spells would slot into that category.

Pugilist

“I don’t understand at all. You mean 50% less? Why?”

No, I don’t. Sorry about that, I was meant to insert a ‘more’ between 50% and damage. So, in essence, what I meant was the army does 150% damage.

Strategist

“That is fine, but at a higher level of that skill, I would allow him to battle a little and then to be able to retreat in a special mode. He can retreat at a certain cost, but this cost will be expressed in some sacrificed creatures, not money.”

It sounds as though (from your example) you have a good idea. So you are saying that, the more skilled the strategist is, the less creatures he has to leave behind to be used as the bait for the getaway? If so, I would agree. I believe the strategist should have the option to retreat from combat earlier, but if he did so, he would have to leave more creatures behind, but as the battle progressed, he could not have to leave any at all. The cost of the creatures need to be much less than the cost a normal army would pay. So if a normal army would pay 3,000 gold for retreating, the strategist would pay 1,500 gold worth of creatures.

“So, these are so far my comments; I’m waiting for the other classes of heroes to be posted by you. Good job so far!”

Thanks. They will be posted at the head of each of my replies, like this one is.

Gerdash

“you choose a part of your army, and if that can live on it's own for e.g. 1 round on the battlefield, then the rest of your army can retreat.
so it would be wasteful to retreat unsucessfully.”

An extremely intriguing idea. This would mean that it would be more difficult to retreat against ranged units. So, would it be possible to leave 2 units on the battlefield and provided that one of them survives, you could continue? Or would both have to survive?

“maybe the creatures would also be able to do some morale trick, e.g. you pick some pikemen to cover your retreat, but the pikemen get scared or feel that they are unjustly left to die on the battlefield, or they are suspicious of your cause (imho classical morale effects) and refuse (like e.g. homm2&3 panic freeze).”

And so by this you mean to imply if these things occur, your retreat will fail because of the effects that take place? Sounds like a very realistic idea to me and it wouldn’t be too difficult to implement by the looks of things.
If they flee before the round is up, this would also mean the retreat fails. Your idea is good and interesting because it adds the extra element of strategy to retreating – letting you choose how many creatures you lose. Great idea in my opinion, Gerdash.

Dragon_Slayer

Thankyou, Dragon_Slayer for that simpler example to explain my theory for Heroes V.

“However unlike normal heroes, specialist heroes must be recruited from their own structure and have a maximum of two.”

That is; 2 is a maximum for each of the types, not of the actual specialist heroes in total. I have in fact expressed that total earlier in this post.

“I believe that specialist heroes would be a nice addition to Heroes 5.
If only 3DO would listen to our ideas and put more in the game and not rush to release it...”

Thanks, as do I, and I also hope other do, to. NWC make the game, 3D0 merely produce it. It has been proven that NWC do in fact sometimes implement ideas, and I am hoping that they may see this and adopt it for Heroes V. 3D0 forced NWC to release it quickly for some extra cash to help them from bankruptcy – that didn’t happen, and we are stuck with an excellent game, that could’ve been that little bit better.

Soccerfeva


bonus applied-sorry to go off topic,but this was sooo good!”

Thanks for the compliment soccerfeva. However you cannot hand out QP’s yet.

Again thanks to the participators, Vladpopescu79 and Gerdash, your opinion is always welcome, and I thank you two personally since you seem to be very good contributors to my threads. Also thanks to Dragon_Slayer and Soccerfeva. I know many people have viewed this topic, but not many posts….. BTW: Excuse the lateness of my reply.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted August 08, 2003 01:47 AM

Quote:
I will post the remaining 5 magic heroes in posts to come in the future rather than in this initial post to save you from bloodshot eyes.
oh, thanks alot, lol. not that i am a master of short notes myself, but i must confess i got scared and read only some fragments of posts in this thread, sorry. or maybe it's the idea that i am more interested in, rather than the details that make me suspicious, lol. i guess it's a question if we want a specialized bakery or not.

and there are some questions that come to mind.

1) why specialist heroes instead of an additional primary skill slot for the normal heroes? or some special primary skill slot that gets advanced more than others, similar to hero specializations e.g. in logistics in homm3?

2) didn't find the spot where you explained why something needs to happen when two specialists meet, etc, although i guess the first question would be more important.

========
as far as my totally incompetent (got scared, as i said) opinion goes, the ability to specialize your hero by means of having a more effective special skill slot might be a compromise with homm3 hero spec that many liked. also, it might be tempting to put the first more or less reasonable primary skill into that slot as soon as possible.

the intriguing thing that i see is the skill balancing problem. in reality, it has usually turned out that some skill is better than others, so people might want to have the skill in the special slot in every hero, making all heroes the same again. but on the other hand, if there's only one special skill, this might create some situational diversity, if only the skills are somewhat balanced. it could be e.g. a choice between great logistics and reasonable might or great might and reasonable logistics, hmm..

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted August 16, 2003 05:19 PM

Off-topic: Bonuses applied.

ThE_HyDrA and Vladpopescu have both worked hard developing this idea in this and other topics. gerdash's bonus is a Poster of the Month Award.

A few comments:

How about having Heroes, specialist Heroes, War Machines or creature followers each take up an army slots, and each army have say 5 or so of these slots, where at least one of these must be filled with a normal Hero.

(Creature followers would be explained in my old idea for Hirelings. It's similar to the specialist heroes idea but applies for creatures instead of Heroes.)

When it comes to Specialist Heroes, are you advocating a fixed upgrade tree or to allow player to choose upgrades?

When it comes to levelling Specialist Heroes, then how about using number of days in your service? Perhaps giving them one upgrade every 10th day, and perhaps also charging Gold or resources for this upgrade.

Specialist Heroes and main heroes must be able to interact in some way and boost each other values. Have you considered the following:
- Will specialist Heroes get an action of their own in combat, or will any action they take replace the action of a main hero?

If the action replaces the main Hero's action:
- If both main hero and specialist Hero has say the spirituality skill, will the benefits add together?
- Will specialist Hero add spells to main Hero's spellbook?
- Will nobility, ressurrection, summoning, charm, necromancy, dimplomacy bonuses stack or will just the highest value count?

If they each have separate actions:
- Will tactics, offence, defence, archery, leadership, luck and similar bonuses stack, or just pick the higher skill?

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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vladpopescu79
vladpopescu79


Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
posted August 17, 2003 12:25 AM


ThE HyDrA:

About the Necrotic:
The 1/2 stack raised during the combat comes in the form of the necro-equivalent creaure in level wit the killed stack? Or just a simple ressurection like in H2?

The Necrtic should be able, in my opinion to bring back also the killed undead from his own army. it would be a sort of "recycling" the bones... . Since he must have a limited power and time at his disposal, perhaps he can choose which stacks to bring back?

The scout: I assume that it would be ok for him to cast spells due to Scouting Skill, but if possible, another solution must be found.

The Strategist: exactly my point.



Djive:

First of all, thanks for your consideration.

"How about having Heroes, specialist Heroes, War Machines or creature followers each take up an army slots, and each army have say 5 or so of these slots, where at least one of these must be filled with a normal Hero."

This idea could work in conjunction with HyDrA's idea of having two slots for the heroes. There could be added a number of more slots and create a sort of "cohort" that accompanies the main hero. The cohort could be composed of specialist heroes, special creatures, bards (it is Gerdash's idea), and perhaps other elements, including slots for war machines and other devices.

"When it comes to Specialist Heroes, are you advocating a fixed upgrade tree or to allow player to choose upgrades?"

I guess they'll use a flexible skill tree, like all heroes, with freedom of choice.

"When it comes to levelling Specialist Heroes, then how about using number of days in your service? Perhaps giving them one upgrade every 10th day, and perhaps also charging Gold or resources for this upgrade."

I don't think that number of days should influence the heroes stats. You cannot compare a hero wandering for ten days in the wilderness with a fatty one behind friendly walls, right?

"- Will specialist Heroes get an action of their own in combat, or will any action they take replace the action of a main hero?"

My opinion, and I think also HyDrA's (but I don't speak in his name) is that they will have their own turn, decided by their level, or simply next to the main hero.

"Will tactics, offence, defence, archery, leadership, luck and similar bonuses stack, or just pick the higher skill?"

I think the skills must add together, otherwise there's no point in using a specialist taht has skills like yours. And it is quite logical, too, i think, since in a battle, if the general has good capitains, they will lead some troops while he can focus on other important issues...








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MANE, TEKEL, FARES

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted August 17, 2003 08:01 AM

Specialist Heroes Continued

Infernomancer

The Infernomancer spends hours at a time deep within the fiery depths of the Dungeon, where he hones his extraordinary fire-harnessing abilities. His great expertise in Chaos Magic is subject to his time in the dungeon.
The Chaos Magic Primary skill, the Conjuration Secondary Skill, and the Pyromancy secondary skill grant the same bonuses to the Infernomancer as the other equivalents do in the other magic schools. The difference with Chaos Magic is the ability to learn ‘Sorcery’. The Sorcery skill for an Infernomancer increases the amount of damage dealt by spells by 40%, and by another 40% every successive level. Therefore, a maximum of 200% spell damage can be attained.
-The Infernomancer is resistant to all chaos spells, however, against another Infernomancer, he is only resistant 100%, where as the maximum is 200%.
-The Infernomancer has the ability to cast his own spells on a creature that is magic resistant, although, they only do 50% of what they normally would. So against a megadragon, they would do 75% instead of 50%, and against a Black Dragon, deal 50% instead of 0%.
- When in conjunction with a major hero, the Infernomancer is able to increase the major heroes spell damage by 100% once per combat. This lasts for the next spell the hero casts only.
When two Infernomancers meet, a transaction of spells will occur, with each distributing the chaos magic knowledge for a price – in creatures or gold.

Gerdash

“oh, thanks alot, lol. not that i am a master of short notes myself, but i must confess i got scared and read only some fragments of posts in this thread, sorry.”

LOL, that is fine. I imagine only a few would take the time to read my whole post anyway. I did that to try and keep my thread around 3,000 words. If I had posted the others in the initial post, then it would have been something like 4,500 words.
But yes it is true that you don’t necessarily need to read my whole post to get a feeling for the idea I’m trying to convey. The idea is basically explained in the first few paragraphs.

“1) why specialist heroes instead of an additional primary skill slot for the normal heroes? or some special primary skill slot that gets advanced more than others, similar to hero specializations e.g. in logistics in homm3?”

The reason specialist heroes are different are because they can move on their own and they focus entirely on that specialised primary skill group, and can only make use of it. They are not inundated with other skills, and therefore they are able to make use of their individual skill group. Also, I don’t believe having an advanced primary skill in a hero would do it much good, since the hero may not have too many opportunities to utilise its full potential. The predominant reason is to heighten the influence of heroes in Heroes, and also to create a useful asset without straying from the original Heroes formula.

“2) didn't find the spot where you explained why something needs to happen when two specialists meet, etc, although i guess the first question would be more important.”

The spot where to specialists meet is unique, and therefore it is included at the foot of every description of the specialist hero. Example: ‘When two pugilists encounter each other alone on the adventure map (very rare since they would need to be part of an army to use their skills) a fight will erupt in much the same manner has two heroes fighting in Heroes IV. There would be no balancing issues since they are the only heroes who can fight (and they cannot fight against creatures).’

“the ability to specialize your hero by means of having a more effective special skill slot might be a compromise with homm3 hero spec that many liked.”

I don’t believe so. I don’t understand why the two cannot work in conjunction with each other? Also, the specialist hero doesn’t provide attack and defence bonuses to a particular creature, it instead applies its specialties to skills not spells or creatures. A strategist may be able to have special combat skill and also specialise in the ‘lightning’ spell – due to the heroes personal background.

“in reality, it has usually turned out that some skill is better than others, so people might want to have the skill in the special slot in every hero, making all heroes the same again.”

Indeed an intriguing point. However, if all the skills are particularly balanced in Heroes V, then I shouldn’t see a problem. I can though understand your concern over this issue. I hope I myself have balanced the skills correctly when I concocted the idea. But if you are right, the limitations in the castle will prevent the player from having all scouts, besides, each specialist serves their specific purpose, and I believe each one is worthwhile having. (If you can get them)

“could be e.g. a choice between great logistics and reasonable might or great might and reasonable logistics, hmm..”

A specialist hero would never be able to learn both logistics and defence, as they belong to different primary skills, (Combat and Scouting). Your comment, though, can still apply, in terms of choosing expert pathfinding and GM seamanship, or the other way around…..

Djive

“Off-topic: Bonuses applied.
ThE_HyDrA and Vladpopescu have both worked hard developing this idea in this and other topics. gerdash's bonus is a Poster of the Month Award.”

Thanks for the bonus, Djive. I know Vladpopescu79 and Gerdash thoroughly deserve it, as they’ve been posting such posts for a very long time.

“How about having Heroes, specialist Heroes, War Machines or creature followers each take up an army slots, and each army have say 5 or so of these slots, where at least one of these must be filled with a normal Hero.”

Interesting proposal. However, I think that is best that slots are specified to the individual hero. 1 slot for main hero, 2 slots for specialist heroes, and 3 for War Machines. I think having the freedom of 4 slots available for specialist heroes is too beneficial to army’s cause, and they could get overused, as they would be only utilising their one primary skill.

“When it comes to Specialist Heroes, are you advocating a fixed upgrade tree or to allow player to choose upgrades?”

The player can choose the skills the specialist hero learns, within a certain extent. I plan the level-up of specialists to be no different to that of major heroes, as I cannot understand why there would be a difference.

“When it comes to levelling Specialist Heroes, then how about using number of days in your service? Perhaps giving them one upgrade every 10th day, and perhaps also charging Gold or resources for this upgrade.”

I disagree on this view. Why would they be given experience for days of service? I planned to have specialist heroes levelled up from adventure map objects only, as they do not divert experience to themselves in combat. Also, days in service would be too difficult to compute, as one Scout who has spent 10 days scouring the map would certainly have a different experience bonus to one who has merely stayed at the castle. Also, your idea would encourage to by specialists early, while this is not a bad thing, their levels would probably escalate too quickly and their skills could be maximised within a few months. I wanted to have specialist development on par with major hero development, so they don’t outweigh each other too significantly.

“Specialist Heroes and main heroes must be able to interact in some way and boost each other values. Have you considered the following:
- Will specialist Heroes get an action of their own in combat, or will any action they take replace the action of a main hero?”

Yes, I agree that Specialist and Major Heroes must interact with each other, as the presence of another fellow hero would certainly trigger a reaction. I was thinking something along the lines of temporary skill borrowing (only lasts for that battle) To re-iterate what I mentioned previously, specialist heroes have a turn of their own, and they act in much the same way as a major hero in this respect. Most of them have spells, and the ones who don’t (Pugilist, Noble) have other in battle purposes.

“If they each have separate actions:
- Will tactics, offence, defence, archery, leadership, luck and similar bonuses stack, or just pick the higher skill?”

I believe the logical effect to induce here would be to add the two skills together, otherwise the skill that one of them possesses would be wasted, and it wouldn’t be much different. I think supplementing each others skills is a worthy benefit of two heroes working together.

Vladpopescu79

“About the Necrotic:
The 1/2 stack raised during the combat comes in the form of the necro-equivalent creaure in level wit the killed stack? Or just a simple ressurection like in H2?”

I had envisaged it to be a simple resurrection as in Heroes II. However, some may call that resurrection instead of necromancy, so maybe it could be in the form of a necropolis equivalent creature. I’m not sure what would be better in this case. To add another boundary to that ability, the maximum number of units able to be resurrected is 50.

“The Necrtic should be able, in my opinion to bring back also the killed undead from his own army. It would be sort of “recycling” the bones… . Since he must have a limited power and time at his disposal, perhaps he can choose which stacks to bring back?”

This is an excellent idea, in my opinion. This would be an excellent addition to the skills the Necrotic has. I also think the parameters you have set for this ability reflect the strength.

“The scout: I assume that it would be ok for him to cast spells due to Scouting Skill, but if possible, another solution must be found.”

Yes. It is a difficult predicament since the scout can only learn scouting skills, and any other skill learnt would have to be from another primary skill. However, maybe if every primary skill has a magic affiliated secondary skills to cater for the specialist heroes, then it wouldn’t be too difficult.

(Despite being written to Djive…..)

“The cohort could be composed of specialist heroes, special creatures, bards (it is Gerdash's idea), and perhaps other elements, including slots for war machines and other devices.”

Well, I express the same concern as I did previously, this could enable the number of specialists in one army to escalate, and therefore possibly overuse their powers. Also, I believe specialist heroes are in a more elite league than catapults and first aid tents.

Thanks to Gerdash, Djive and Vladpopescu79 for the replies, and also to Djive for the QP’s. Sorry for the lateness once more, I hope the topic can continue…..

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted August 17, 2003 12:56 PM

Question about upgrades was asked because you don't really have much choices when restricted to one Primary skill, the Pre-requisites tend to force you to take skills in roughly the same order each time.

I don't think using Map objects is a good idea. The player doesn't know if the Map objects exists at the start of the game. If they don't exist they are stuck with an unusable specialist. What if (horror) the Map Maker forgets to put it in?

Why to give the XP for days of service? Hmm.. that's the common way to gain expeerince. Most of us develope and grow wiser from our training and experiences. A Lord for instance is probably gaining more experience from ruling the city and staying in town than he does if he is to take part in combat or visit some specialized Map object outside town. One of the reasons for having towns is that you can afford structures and tuition that wouldn't be affordable in the countryside. So logically tuition possibilities would always be a lot better in a town than on the countryside.

The choice to place the tuition structures outside towns is probably done in an attempt to spread the power on the Map away from the towns, rather than based on real circumstances about where the structures are likely to be. It also works in reverse: if you build a nice university, then it will attract people all across the land, and you will get a town. And if you don't the university will not bear econimically, and will soon be non-functional.

If you want something less determinitic you could give the Specialist Hero an certain % chance to increase a level each turn.

On scouts casting spells: The Specialist heroes would work better if they had selected a number of skills they could advance in and these groups doesn't need to be the same as for the normal Heroes. (And you shouldn't use the exact skills of H4 too heavy here, since those skill groups are likely to be changed.) In the preliminary plans for H5 before Ubisoft bought it there was plans for a common groups of spells which didn't belojng to any group in particular.

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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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nasty
nasty


Known Hero
castor nebun si orb pe cinste
posted August 28, 2003 02:28 AM

it;s been a while since i last posted here...because i am busy trying to take the driver licence...im having the test on september the 5th...so wish me luck...now about the heroes...i have an ideea about the heroes specialty...every hero should have a specialty...but i think that this specialty could be upgraded once you reached a level...but of course not without a fight...let me try to give you an example..lets take gelu as he was in heroes 3...he could upgrade archers into sharpshooters...when he reached the 5th level he would have to fight several unrecruitable creatures(by himself)...and if he would win the specialty would improve by letting him besides upgrading archers...he would be able to upgrade dwarves into battle dwarves at a low price...next battle with other several unrecruitable creatures would be at level 10 and if he would wiin that battle too...he would be able to upgrade pegasi into silver pegasi ...and so on at level 15 and level 20 and 25...you could upgrade the specialty only 5 times.This seems to me like a good ideea...because the heroes would get stronger...and even if the heroes would be left out of battles in heroes 5 ..this upgrade would be separate...so the players who liked heroes in battle could enjoy seeing  them at work...so the hero wouldnt just sit on the horse...he would fight from time to time....and if he looses the battle he doesnt die...he is just informed that he lost an upgrade.Im not sure if i made myself understood...by try to imagine upgradable specialties...there are many possibilities!please tell me your opinions and come up  with suggestions...till the next time..maybe after i take the driver licence(i hope i will)
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You can trick me with food.Possesions mean nothing to a navajo.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted September 10, 2003 12:01 PM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 10 Sep 2003

Sorry for the very long time away….

My computer had been struck by a virus, however, I am back online now, I am happy to say.

Dryad: Nature Magic

The Dryads are a unique race, they live a life of connectivity: bonded with trees to make their powers grow stronger, and recover when they are hurt. They specialise in nature magic and its various forms.
Basic Herbalism entails the augmentation of 20 spell points, also, spell point recovery is increased to 4 per day. Every level after that adds an extra 20 spell points and an extra 4 spell points to recover per day. At the GM level, the hero would have 100 spell points, and would recover 1/5 of those per day. Meditation increases the effectiveness of all nature spells by 40%, and an additional 40% every level gained after that. A Dryad with basic summoning allows it to summon lvel 2 creatures, proceeding one level with the next skill base, so level 6 being the highest.
- In terrain where trees are abundant, the hero gets +25% to all parameters, including speed, attack, HP
- If fighting with a purely natural army, the luck effect is likely to come more frequently.
- After 2 skills have Grandmaster status, the Dryad gains the ranged ability.
When two Dryads meet, both of their HP will increase by 10%, due to their close correlation with nature.

Djive

“I don't think using Map objects is a good idea. The player doesn't know if the Map objects exists at the start of the game.”

I believe it is an apt requirement for a specialist. The specialist does not partake in battles as aforementioned, they should therefore be enticed to explore the map, (which I had envisaged) and along the way gain experience. In all serious maps, map objects will exist, aside from if the player has deliberately not placed objects on due to the storyline. The only problem I can see is that there aren’t enough, but in that case, the treasure chests can be utilise to provide some experience also.

“Why to give the XP for days of service? Hmm.. that's the common way to gain expeerince. Most of us develope and grow wiser from our training and experiences. A Lord for instance is probably gaining more experience from ruling the city and staying in town than he does if he is to take part in combat or visit some specialized Map object outside town.”

While it is a common way to gain experience, no experience can be gained if nothing is done. It is like saying a man who has been on the job 5 years but has done absolutely nothing is more proficient at it than another who has been at the job for 5 days and also done nothing. I cannot see a specialist gaining experience if the player is unaware that it is occurring. Also, if a Noble does acquire experience from ruling a castle, how can that be transferred to diplomacy? I see it being too difficult to calculate aswell. I don’t want to stray from the experience giving formula, so I think it is best to stay with what we have.

“So logically tuition possibilities would always be a lot better in a town than on the countryside.”

I am not discouraging the idea of learning in the town. I would see this as a very acceptable way of attaining experience for specialists. I am with you on this point, maybe the tuition could be given at a lower price in towns?

“If you want something less determinitic you could give the Specialist Hero an certain % chance to increase a level each turn.”

I do not like the word ‘chance’ in a Heroes game, as it is meant to be a game of strategy, not chance. This would also discourage the Specialist Hero from visiting adventure map structures, and the ‘older’ specialists will always be stronge than the younger ones.

“On scouts casting spells: The Specialist heroes would work better if they had selected a number of skills they could advance in and these groups doesn't need to be the same as for the normal Heroes.”

That is possibly so. However, then they may not be known as specialist heroes in one specific group. If we have the ‘scout primary skill’ for example, it could consist of many other different skills. I am afraid it would be rather difficult to incorporate a magic skill into a scouts skill list and for him to still remain a specialist. So the best I can think of is make one of the other skills have a minor spellcasting bonus.

“(And you shouldn't use the exact skills of H4 too heavy here, since those skill groups are likely to be changed.)”

Point taken, but it is the most recent skill list we have, and trying to theorise upon skill groups at the moment is illogical. But I am open to felxibility when the skills change for Heroes V. I am merely using these skills as a base, and I hope to apply the bonuses in an equivalent fashion once the Heroes V skill effects are unveiled.

“In the preliminary plans for H5 before Ubisoft bought it there was plans for a common groups of spells which didn't belojng to any group in particular.”

Yes, I had already taken that into account, and did plan to have a generic specialist hero for those certain spells. I wonder how much of the NWC plans are going to be kept?

Nasty

“it;s been a while since i last posted here...because i am busy trying to take the driver licence...im having the test on september the 5th...so wish me luck”

LOL, it seems as though there are two very important things that occurred on that day. The other is my birthday. I hope you’ve succeeded in your driving test, I still have another year to go before I can begin.

“...now about the heroes...i have an ideea about the heroes specialty...every hero should have a specialty...but i think that this specialty could be upgraded once you reached a level...but of course not without a fight...”

That is an interesting idea. I am in favour of it, too. I find the idea of augmenting the hero’s special ability with time, but I think every level would see the hero reach the top stage too quickly. Possibly every 5 levels would be more feasible to make the occasion more special.

“let me try to give you an example..lets take gelu as he was in heroes 3...he could upgrade archers into sharpshooters...when he reached the 5th level he would have to fight several unrecruitable creatures(by himself)...and if he would win the specialty would improve by letting him besides upgrading archers...”

Yes, an excellent theory. A question, nevertheless, how would the number of recruitable creatures be connected with the hero? Say how many creatures would a level 5 hero have to fight, compared to how many a level 20 hero would fight. Aso, what would the improvement in the specialty be? Say if the specialist has a 20% increasing attack and defence of a Ghost, then would it change to 30%?

“you could upgrade the specialty only 5 times.”

This sounds good, because I don’t think you should be able to do this an unlimited number of times. Additionally, this ties in with the five levels of skill development (Basic, Expert, etc.)

“and if he looses the battle he doesnt die...he is just informed that he lost an upgrade.Im not sure if i made myself understood...”

Yes, it would be a chance for the heroes to once again be in combat, and since there are only one type of creatures which that individual hero would be fighting against, the balancing issue wouldn’t be too large. (Smaller than Heroes IV, anyway)

“by try to imagine upgradable specialties...there are many possibilities!please tell me your opinions and come up with suggestions...”

Yes, on these possibilities, depending on how well the hero beats the army, maybe the bonuses can be greater, due to the more skill the hero has? This would reward better players, too.

“till the next time..maybe after i take the driver licence(i hope i will)”

How did you go?

Thanks for posting, I can see now that the thread is coming to a close, so I thank you for helping me refine this idea.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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nasty
nasty


Known Hero
castor nebun si orb pe cinste
posted September 23, 2003 11:04 PM
Edited By: nasty on 23 Sep 2003

Hi ..I took the driver licence and i already have about 400 km of experience..and by the way Happy Birthday to you The Hydra...several days ago when i was about to fall asleep i had an ideea how to make the tactics skill better...when you have basic tactics you can arrange your army as you wish on several yards....at advance you get two obstacles that you can place in front of the other army....expert:you get 3 obstacles and you can put a small barricade that would have lets say 50 life that would protect one of your creatures(the archers basically)....master...the barricades life grows at 100 and you can place two of them....at grandmaster beside the barricades you can create a small hill surounded by barricades...where you could place a creature....i think it would make the game a lot more strategic.And the graphics of the barricades would be  different at each class of heroes...the barbarian would have a barricade of dirt while a wizard would have a force field....and a beastmaster a bush...and so on...this would make the battle a lot harder.

And i had another ideea that i dont think you would agree with it but i will post it.I like fighting games like Street fighter...so i was thinking...due to the heroes personalities and their classes ...such a game could be created with the heroes from the game...think about it...you would fight with gelu against Sandro...they would have special moves ...and super combos...that would include spells from the game....A super combo i saw in my dream for gelu:he flicks his fingers and about 20 sharpshooters apear in the background and shoot at the enemy...And think about fighting all sorts of heroes...the game would have about 25 heroes...the most  famous ones...think about Solmyr throwing lightnings at you...fighting with a barbarian...just like in a fighting game....i can only dream of such thing...or fighting an archdevil hero ...it would be great...and they could make their stories great so you wouldnt fight for nothing and every hero would have a movie when you beat the bosses.i know you wont like it but i find it intriguing.till next time
____________
You can trick me with food.Possesions mean nothing to a navajo.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 05, 2003 09:14 AM
Edited by alcibiades at 16:31, 13 Jun 2009.

The Final Specialist Hero

This Specialist hero is rather ‘extra-special’, seeing as this one is based on the generic magic system Jon Van Caneghem planned to put in Heroes V. For this matter, the specialist hero of the generic magic, which I have named the ‘Magician’, is a diverse magic harnesser, and is not so specialised as the others. Because there was no basis of skill values to work off, forgive me if this hero is either too weak or too strong, because balancing can be difficult.

Magician: Miscellaneous Magic

The Magician, unlike his fellow mages and sorcerers, does not localise himself to one area of magic. Instead, the Magician loves to explore all horizons, and his knowledge of magic broadens by the day. While he may not be so proficient as others in their specialised classes, he possesses a great deal of knowledge about all schools, and about the way of magic. Over the years, the Magicians have compiled a list of spells, which do not belong in any other category, and placed them in a new spell school. Little is known about this school, except for the fact that Magicians, and only a select few head mages from other alignments can exercise its powers.
Basic Magic allows the Magician to cast level 1 spells, and this continues to increase with every level of magic attained. The ancient skill of invocation enables the Magician to gain 20 spell points at a basic level, increasing by 20 every level after that, and also regenerate 4 spell points at basic level, with an added four every level after. Basic Expansion allows the magician to, not only increase the effectiveness of its own miscellaneous spells by 30%, with a 30% increment every level, but also 5% of every other magic school the Magician learns spells from. The Magician’s special skill (and the Miscellaneous Spell School’s, for that matter), is Spell Recognition. Spell Recognition makes the Magician 25% immune to its own spells at basic level. This increases to 50%, and then to 75% at Expert level. At the master level, the magician can learn the basic spells of any school. At Grandmaster, the advanced spells of any schools are available to the magician.
- If all skills are at the Grandmaster level, the Magician has the capacity to learn Expert spells from all other classes.
- Once the Spell Recognition skill is at the Grandmaster level, the Magician can learn a new spell. This spell is, ‘Magic Resistance’. Magic resistance grants 100% magic resistance for the entire combat for one creature. The spell is considered to be a level 5 spell, so it has the cost of 12 spell points.
- Once during Combat, the Magician can cast ‘Mass Magic Resistance’ this has the same effect as the above spell, except it is automatically cast on all creature, however it only lasts for three turns instead of the whole combat. Again, this is a level 5 spell.
When two Magicians meet, the share with each other some spells that they have learnt. The Magicians choose 3 spells, and the total level of them has to equal 8. An example is 1 level 1 spell, 1 level 4 spell, and one level 3 spell.

Specialist Hero Combat Layout

There have been questions asked by some in this thread as to whether the Specialist hero replaces the hero, or it sits next to it, or there are more than 1 specialists in the army. Also, Djive and Vladpopescu79 continued to toy with the idea of having a number of slots, which are filled by the main hero, the specialist hero, and the war machines and aids. I myself have given the subject some thought, and this is my layout for the battle.
Creatures: 12 slots for creatures, which is the maximum amount one can have using my upgrade system. These are separated from the hero, and are the only ones which can directly attack in this circumstance.
War Machines: A total of 2 slots for War Machines. I think this encourages a strategic approach, as to choosing which one is the most important. You can still have all 3, but only use 2 in combat. The three used are thus: Catapult, First Aid Tent, War Cart.
Specialist Heroes: Specialist Heroes can not take up the slots of War Machines, or any other unit (and vice-versa, just so you know). There is 1 slot for the specialist hero in an army where there is a main hero. In an army without a main hero, the specialist can use the main hero’s slot, and the other specialist can assume its normal position.
Major Heroes: There can only be one major hero in an army. Even in an army by itself, the Major hero cannot take the slot of a unit that is weaker than itself.
In essence, the battlefield will appear thusly:

_____________________________________
                Creature 1
                Creature 2
                Creature 3
War Machine 1    Creature 4 Creature 10
Major Hero       Creature 5 Creature 11
Specialist Hero  Creature 6 Creature 12
War Machine 2    Creature 7
                Creature 8
_________________Creature 9__________

And the opposite for the opposing side. I am hoping that has expressed my views sufficiently enough for people to gain an understanding of my intentions.

Nasty

“Hi ..I took the driver licence and i already have about 400 km of experience..and by the way Happy Birthday to you The Hydra”

Thanks, Nasty. I hope that those 400km stand you in good stead for the future, and remember, drive safely. (That’s coming from a person who has only driven his father’s Alfa Romeo down the driveway). LOL

“when you have basic tactics you can arrange your army as you wish on several yards....at advance you get two obstacles that you can place in front of the other army”

Yes, I also had an idea for that tactics skill that I have reproduced. Your basic reward is practically the same as my own. But I must admit, I had never thought of placing obstacles in front of the army to prevent the opposing army from attacking. Maybe since I thought it would require some sort of magic to do something like that. Also, 2 obstacles are a pretty big barrier to have; maybe just 1 for the advanced level? Otherwise it may begin to get too difficult for the battle to fully unfold, and the battlefield would be rather cramped if both armies had advanced tactics, let alone the obstacles already there.

“small barricade that would have lets say 50 life that would protect one of your creatures(the archers basically)”

3 obstacles is definitely too many obstacles to have, in my mind. Perhaps we can have one obstacle, plus a 50 HP barricade for the expert level. I quite like that idea of placing a barricade up. I think it adds to the strategy and the positioning of your troops, and how vital it actually can be. Tactics has the capacity to become an extremely diverse skill, maybe even be split up into two sections, like Positioning Tactics and Defensive Tactics or something.

“at grandmaster beside the barricades you can create a small hill surounded by barricades...where you could place a creature....i think it would make the game a lot more strategic.”

Do you mean like a turret? If so, it seems like a commendable idea to me. However, I think, in order for this to work properly, some nature magic has to be known by the hero, because I don’t believe tactics solely could raise a section of terrain, place obstacles, or build barricades quickly enough. Apart from that, it seems like an optimum idea. I also like the fact that you have decided to make the respective barricades more unique by having maybe one made of horns for the barbarian, and one of bones for the Necromancer, etc.
Your idea has given me one, too.
As an alternative to castles, there can also be forts, (not a connection to my earlier ‘Village’ idea). Forts are strictly used for defensive purposes, and also to create an outpost where there aren’t enough castles close enough. I imagine that the fort will be half make-shift, and half permanent. My vision is to have different levels of terrain in combat, layered by walls, similar to a large hill with walls around it. The fort will take up ½ the battlefield, and the creatures can move within the walls, and the heroes will have the highest vantage point. There will be a gate that has 100 HP limit, and a catapult can also knock the walls down.

“I like fighting games like Street fighter...so i was thinking...due to the heroes personalities and their classes ...such a game could be created with the heroes from the game...think about it...you would fight with gelu against Sandro...they would have special moves ...and super combos...that would include spells from the game....”

LOL, that is a very creative idea. I wouldn’t mind that as a spin-off to the Heroes Series, but it is not high on my list of priorities. I suppose it would be entertaining, and it would give the chance for the heroes to exercise their skills, and they can be given more a storyline surrounding them, and actually have a more in-depth personality. But if this game was to hamper the development of any future heroes games, I would say no.

“A super combo i saw in my dream for gelu:he flicks his fingers and about 20 sharpshooters apear in the background and shoot at the enemy...And think about fighting all sorts of heroes...the game would have about 25 heroes...the most famous ones...think about Solmyr throwing lightnings at you...fighting with a barbarian...just like in a fighting game....i can only dream of such thing..”

It does sound very entertaining as I said, and it would be interesting to see what the developers come up with. One thing I can say, you have a very elaborate imagination to think of such things. I know I would play the sort of game if it did ever come out. Since it doesn’t actually have anything to do with the Heroes Series, it cannot really have any negative effects apart from slowing the production of it.

“know you wont like it but i find it intriguing.till next time ”

No, quite the opposite, I also find it exciting. Thanks for your input, Nasty, it is always welcome.




Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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