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| Thread: Creature psychology |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted July 12, 2001 05:28 PM |
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Creature psychology
I suppose this is more of a heroes 5 wish, since it's probably too dramatic a change for an expansion set.
I wish they would play up creature psychology beyond a mere morale thing. I noticed that a whole lot of people love the rivalries between things like devils and angels and dragons and titans. They should kick it up a notch and beyond just doing extra damage, if they see eachother on the battle field, there should be a chance that they'll drop everything else and attack just that creature. For instance "Burning with hatred, the arch-devils charge the angels." I suppose that it wouldn't be in character for angels to lose control, but it would be cool if that would happen to the dragons and devils from time to time. You could also make it that you simply cannot have devils and angels in the same army, or if you do, there's a chance (dependent on your leadership) that they'll actually attack eachother! If you have enough rivalries, army composition could become a real integral part of the game.
You could also add things like creatures that are reluctant to fight. For instance, the inferno could have slaves that are ultra-cheap and grow really fast, but unless you have pit lords behind them whipping them forward, they'll simply stand in one place (and of course, the good, wussy heroes would refuse to use slaves). On the other side of things, you could have creatures that are hard to restrain. Like most of the beastmaster creatures, or hell hounds. If you don't have some sort of control creature next to them, they'll automatically charge as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy.
Of course, there's also things like normal pikemen or something being too terrified to attack a big scary dragon, but I don't know how to make that any different from the way morale is done now.
Anyway, I'd be really interested to know what everybody here thinks.
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Galahad
Adventuring Hero
Seeker of the Grail
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posted July 12, 2001 09:57 PM |
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Good idea!
Fear& Morale play a very important role in a battle and the moral-bonus in HOMM3 by getting an extra turn is just silly. I wish more strategy-games had these factors involved, but as you say it would require much effort.
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dukemaylor
Hired Hero
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posted July 13, 2001 06:12 AM |
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THAT IS A REALLY COOL IDEA. It would be like Frenzy or Beserk being cast. When you get mad you go all out, so the Angel could attack the devil twice, in a row, you wouldn't be able to move it again like in HOMM3 it would just attack twice. If the angel was mad, it would go crazy, and get careless, so its defense would lower, so in between the two attacks the Devil could strike back at double damage, due to hatred. It is a really fascinating idea, and I think that this is one of the neatest ideas I have read up on. If only I was a moderator, I would give you some stars.
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We will run all of our forces at their
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organs.
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dark_hunter7
Known Hero
Order, mages, lords, the RULE
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posted July 13, 2001 07:03 AM |
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That's a cool idea... there should be rivalries and hates like rivalrry is where they go out of control and hate is just like we have hate in homm3. Ive seen 2 Ideas both good from u bort I think u will become a valued HC member with tme 
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I'm back.... yessssss
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted July 13, 2001 04:31 PM |
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Y'all are too kind...
I suppose the important thing is not to get carried away. Not every creature can have a rival/hatred, and for the most part, I think that psychology should be a problem rather than a benefit (although, it would be interesting to have a new secondary skill of "therapist")
As fun as it would be to have every creature have issues, most creatures should still be nice and disciplined and very willing to accept orders. After all, you should be able to say "Hey, swordsman, why don't you go and sort out that nasty looking hydra over there, chop chop." and not have him whine about how the archers get to stay in the back out of danger.
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Coldfyrius
Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
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posted July 13, 2001 10:51 PM |
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I think that while creature rivalries are good, the berserk thing goes a little too far. HOMM is about strateegy, and strategy means being able to control everything dealing solely with you.
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"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen
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Shadow_Phoenix
Known Hero
Shadow Ruler
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posted July 14, 2001 12:20 AM |
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A great idea. I always thought that if you had rival creatures in your army they should have at least a morale reduction but your ideas are great. It should be the heroe that would have some kinda of skill or a nivel based capability to restrain their troops. If it was good enough you could mix rival cratures with no prob, but if it was not they would atack each other. I think it would be a great way to restrain mighty combinations of armies, like having two very powerfull creatures in the same army.
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted July 14, 2001 01:20 AM |
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I've always thought that creature alignment should be more structured. I would like to see a betrayal ability or spell that would work for heroes. Example: Warlock has Titans and attacks Wizard. Titans are outraged that they are forced to attack their ally, they switch teams permanantly.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted July 14, 2001 03:56 AM |
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Well, I think that strategy involves knowing what your forces' strengths and weaknesses are. It takes a better general to win with unreliable troops than it does with automatons. (Please don't take this as saying you're a bad general...). Like I said, I don't think that every single creature should be a basket case, but I think it would add an (enjoyable) challenge to have plan around some orders not being followed.
Besides, if the result really screwed you up, you could always re-load (just like if that bad morale comes at a bad time)!
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Coldfyrius
Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
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posted July 14, 2001 05:31 AM |
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By strategy, I do not mean strategy itself but strategy games. They are about total control over everything that is yours. I say bring out morale more, but none of your own creatures fighting each other.
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"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen
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dukemaylor
Hired Hero
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posted July 14, 2001 06:43 AM |
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I think that demoralizatrion should also occur whenever a creature attacks the same type of creature or the same allignment. I mean how owuld you like to go into battle and kill oone of your friends, who was on the other side. So if a centaur attacks a centaur they will not attack with as much damage because they don't want to hurt them, and if they do hurt them, they loose morale ponts because of this.
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We will run all of our forces at their
lines, and choke their guns with our
organs.
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted August 10, 2001 07:39 PM |
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Well, looks like this one was partially granted (although admittedly, the game features probably had nothing to do with this thread...)
1. Bone dragons cause panic, which can force the enemy unit to retreat a little
2. archdevils and archangels being in the same army suffer additional morale penalties.
Huzzah!
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niteshade
Known Hero
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posted August 10, 2001 09:20 PM |
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"I think that demoralizatrion should also occur whenever a creature attacks the same type of creature or the same allignment. I mean how owuld you like to go into battle and kill oone of your friends, who was on the other side"
Yeah, because in real life humans never kill other humans (note the sarcasm)
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted July 01, 2004 09:16 AM |
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Thread Revived
Bort has an excellent point. Even though it was made some three years ago, I think it still has many applications for today. I hope to see many fresh new comments here. I'll have some to add once I've gotten some sleep.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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draco
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 02, 2004 06:10 PM |
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well since it was revived...
I think it would be neat if they brought back the old Kings Biounty style of leadership.. not enough leadership you cant have more men. (like Desciples too i guesS)
I always thought bad moral should be more devastating
if you have -10 morale, maybe your men would fight eachother **off** the battlefield maybe you have 100 angels and 100 devils, you may lose a few of either every some odd turns, same with dragons and titans, same with sordsmen and liches ect..
of course weaker units would die faster. 1 devil may kill 1-3 peasants a day or something. for every 100 hp of evil kills 1 hp of good, and vice versa.
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Daddy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
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posted July 02, 2004 06:15 PM |
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Yes, in fact it is a very cool idea!
As many before said, motivation, fear an hatred are vital in combats and ur idea to extend the "hates ..."-ability really ownes^^ Well, I hope, some1 at ubi reads ur post
regards
Daddy
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gerdash
Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
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posted July 03, 2004 04:56 PM |
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if there are hatreds and fears, should dendroids hate or fear black dragons for their fire breath? or both hate and fear at the same time?
what should be hate and fear effects? i guess it would be something like:
1) hate -- chance that creature attacks the creature it hates without waiting for your command. it should depend on discipline in your army. i doubt morale can be interpreted as discipline only, the creature volunteers for an additional attack from it's spare time. so morale looks more like enthusiasm to me. would enthusiastic creatures be more disciplined?
2) fear -- chance that a creature is afraid to carry out a task. this should depend on discipline again. i think that a creature stack should get the fear freeze after you have ordered it to do something, and the chance of freeze should depend on what you ordered it to do.
maybe there should be two different levels of fear effects: one that freezes and the other that just causes reduced damage when attacking melee.
also, i agree that creature stacks should have individual morale levels that should change during battle depending on what orders you gave to the stack. and if undead in your army have all died, the penalty of having undead in your army should be softened. if you order a creature stack to attack it's natural enemy, it's morale should improve. if you order them to attack same town type, then their morale should be reduced maybe. when you order to attack too strongly retaliating opponent stacks, morale should be reduced.
the last one (e.g. you order 1 low level unit to attack 100 dragons and the low level unit is killed by retal) might have an effect of reducing morale of the whole army, because the creatures don't trust a hero that sends them to certain death. which makes me think that there should be multiple components of morale that might change during battle, and how much creatures trust the hero should be one of them. maybe the trust should carry over to next battles, as it might take some time until the hero regains good reputation.
it would be interesting to read thoughts about relations of morale and discipline when it comes to hates and fears (i must admit that the discussion of whether to have those effects at all or not is somewhat boring to me as i am an old and quite convinced supporter of the idea).
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Daddy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
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posted July 03, 2004 06:10 PM |
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Gerdash ur points are good and convincing, I like ur ideas
espeacially the thing with the durin-battle-change for morale. Good thoughts indeed.
Once again I hope, some1 at ubi gets to read this
regards
Daddy
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ra2
Adventuring Hero
The good doctor
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posted July 12, 2004 10:26 AM |
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Quote:
the last one (e.g. you order 1 low level unit to attack 100 dragons and the low level unit is killed by retal) might have an effect of reducing morale of the whole army, because the creatures don't trust a hero that sends them to certain death. which makes me think that there should be multiple components of morale that might change during battle, and how much creatures trust the hero should be one of them. maybe the trust should carry over to next battles, as it might take some time until the hero regains good reputation.
This is an incredible ideea. I have been using small stacks of 1-2 creatures ever since heroes 2, to take away enemy retal or to block some nasty archers. This is one of my favourite strategies as it brings max benefits and minimum casualties. In Heroes 4 this strategy has become an art: everybody uses small stacks of genies, nightmares, minotaurs, evil sorceress, dark khights aso. The benefits of suck a strategy are huge.
So your ideea of getting a morale/leadership penalty for the complete death of a stack is FORMIDABLE.
Of course this brings up other issues: mass spells or multiple atacks from a single creature (ex cyclops) are boosted too much by this morale effect so it may be a good ideea to lower their effectiveness in heroes5.
Heroes can also have ways to balance this penalty by casting spells, having skills - I don't know.
Necro will have a big advantage out of this. They are traditionally not affected by morale so they will benefit a great deal by killing stacks of living creatures. So I think it will be a good ideea to balance this a bit by adding a morale bonus for killing undead.
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barbarian
Famous Hero
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posted July 12, 2004 04:04 PM |
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indeed godo ideas creatures being scared to attack a mean big bad black drake , and hell hounds that need masters in order to use , all are raelly good ideas but i think that there should also be facial expresions to units that is my dream  that someday units will have expresions if they face an army much more vast then them, or having an expresion of triumph if they see that their heroe is a very powerfull one with wich they won many fights might also be a good idea if u like it say so if not say so imo createre facial expresions is a good idea that should be implemented in heroes 5  .
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It's optional.
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