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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 16, 2012 10:50 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 22:51, 16 Jan 2012.
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Why wouldn't you want to end up in hell?
that's a stupid question. paradise is where you want to end, and hell is what you want to avoid at all cost, that's all there is to know. what may be hell for you, could be paradise for someone else.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted January 16, 2012 11:11 PM |
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Thanks for the insightful come back, "because I told you so" (though I agree with the second part)
Hell is home for those who belong there, 'home' not a prison or a punishment. Everything is good in this world, you just have to look at it with the right eyes. 
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 16, 2012 11:44 PM |
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I shouldn't answer, but this post contains so much...well
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1. Many girls get their first period at the age of 8-9,
No, it's not MANY. It's a small percentage.Quote:
no girl is mentally capable of understanding what it means to have a baby nor being a mom at the age of 9
How yould YOU know that? I would wager a guess that a menstruating 9-year-old is way better capable to understand what it means to have a baby or being a mom than you at any age. On the other hand - what has that to do with things? Since when is the capability to understand something a prerequisite for anything?Why would, for example anyone understand what it means to be a mom or a father without actually having a child? Do you think that people who become parents ARE understanding that in general?
So what are you trying to tell us?
Hint: we are not talking about preparation courses here, for the pregnant moms and dads in spe.
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hence - perserving their innocence untill they can actually comprehend certain things.
We are back to innocence - guiltlessness. Can we just DROP that?
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Sex ed' in early age which preaches "dont do sex"
That's not sex ed; when preaching is involved, it's religion.
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Parents are the ones who should be
....
SHOULD. Well. As I said, I shouldn't have answered.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted January 16, 2012 11:57 PM |
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No, it's not MANY. It's a small percentage.
I always like to use facts, rather than simple assertions. Gives a common point of discussion.
Look here:
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/111/4/844.full.pdf+html
I'm pretty sure it's a free download. In case it isn't, according to two surveys of kids in the US the % of children who have had their first menstruation by age 10 during the survey years of 1963-1970 was: 0.81%. During the survey year 1988-1994, it was 4.01%. This was for whites.
Of course, though a small fraction, for thousands and thousands of young girls, that's still a lot of girls getting their periods by age 10, and indeed the fraction seems to be growing.
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 17, 2012 12:27 AM |
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Edited by Smithey at 00:27, 17 Jan 2012.
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No, it's not MANY. It's a small percentage.
I dont think numbers are relevant...
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How yould YOU know that? I would wager a guess that a menstruating 9-year-old is way better capable to understand what it means to have a baby or being a mom than you at any age. On the other hand - what has that to do with things? Since when is the capability to understand something a prerequisite for anything?Why would, for example anyone understand what it means to be a mom or a father without actually having a child? Do you think that people who become parents ARE understanding that in general?So what are you trying to tell us?
Hint: we are not talking about preparation courses here, for the pregnant moms and dads in spe.
- How would I know that ? I use common sense, common sense which states that a 9 yo kid is far from having a fully developed brain....
- And you would win, because Im not a woman hence cant be a mom however I make a better parent because unlike a 9 year old girl I dont need to be taken care of....
- Since when is the capability to understand something a prerequisite for anything ? I guess I would go again with the common sense here and thank god most of the schools agree with me, but good luck with teaching a 9 yo kid advanced physics or economy... after all as you state we can throw complexed issues at them while ignoring the fact that their brains arent capable of processing the data....
- Why would adult know what it is to be a parent before being one ? He wouldnt but he will have more tools to adopt to the situation as well as hopefully maturity and experience on his side... Are we really discussing who makes a better parent, a kid or an adult ?
And no, I dont think that most of the adults understand that, the point of this thread is that a huge percentage of parents suck big time hence special licenses should be issued for parenting 
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We are back to innocence - guiltlessness. Can we just DROP that?
You call it "guiltlessness" I call it morals....
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That's not sex ed; when preaching is involved, it's religion.
Dont have sex, dont smoke, dont do drugs.. thats preaching as just like religion its a one way street...
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SHOULD. Well. As I said, I shouldn't have answered.
Maybe you shouldnt, maybe you should...
____________
She turned me into a newt!
A newt?
I got better
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted January 17, 2012 01:54 AM |
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Quote:
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OK, what exactly do you mean by "physically able to have sex?"
Just to clear that up (as if it wasn't clear from the start), when I say say physically able I mean the ability to create life by having sex.
It's fairly easy: once a person CAN make use of an ability, it has to be assumed that said person must have the, umm, capacity to be mature enough to make actually use of the ability.
Otherwise, why would nature grant it?
No, it is not clear that "physically able to have sex" means "able to produce a baby."
OK, so your position is if a 10 year old girl is menstruating she is mature enough to have sex. I wholeheartedly disagree. She is still a child even if she is menstruating. She has a lot of mental and emotional growth to do before she is ready for sex.
Nature has granted me the ability to punch anyone in the nose. Your position is that it is ok for me to punch anyone in the nose because I can. 
____________
Revelation
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 17, 2012 01:58 AM |
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Quote:
- How would I know that ? I use common sense, common sense which states that a 9 yo kid is far from having a fully developed brain....
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- Since when is the capability to understand something a prerequisite for anything ? I guess I would go again with the common sense here and thank god most of the schools agree with me, but good luck with teaching a 9 yo kid advanced physics or economy... after all as you state we can throw complexed issues at them while ignoring the fact that their brains arent capable of processing the data....
oh, I think they have a perfectly developed brain. imo, you are confusing intelligence and knowledge.
you need time to accumulate knowledge, which is why it is very unlikely that a 9 years would be very knowledgeable in quantum physics, because that would mean he probably spent most of his time studying it. and if it was the case, I don't think it would be more obscure to him than it is to a 20 year old student.
just look how some children are forced to train very young and quickly reach a level which is as good or even higher than most adults.
in another hand, the lack of knowledge of children make their intelligence more free. it isn't prisonner of its prejudices and concepts.
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 17, 2012 02:34 AM |
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Edited by Smithey at 02:36, 17 Jan 2012.
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Nope Fauch, not confusing anything, in a similar manner in which your body "grows" so does your brain...
Fully developed brain happens between the ages of 20-25 in most people...
There are many stages in brain development, average 10 year old cant comprehend economy/physics since his brain hasnt reached that level, 10 year old is still trying to figure out the basic concepts of life such as good vs bad...
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 17, 2012 03:01 AM |
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so, what is good and bad? since your brain is fully developed 
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 17, 2012 03:08 AM |
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Chocolate = good
Shark meat = bad
____________
She turned me into a newt!
A newt?
I got better
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted January 17, 2012 04:12 AM |
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I thought about it little bit & maybe in some ways Joker is right about kids needing to learn it at a younger age.
When they reach puberty that is.
It dont mean I agree with everything he says.
He does make sense on some things he says.
I would not agree back in the early 2000's & the 90's but times are different now.
All kids are different & they are learning & knowing about this at a rapid young age.
This is not the 60's & not the 90's either.
If other kids & boys especially are into it & learning about it, then maybe you8nger kids need to learn the warnings & diseases of sex.
I DONT LIKE IT & i NEVER WILL, BUT WITH OTHER KIDS LEARNING IT. WE HAVE TO PROTECT OUR KIDS IN THE BEST WAY WE SEE FIT.
It is just different times & lets face it. Kids are knowing about it at a young age if we like it or not.
____________
Dreaming of a Better World
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 17, 2012 09:03 AM |
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Quote:
OK, so your position is if a 10 year old girl is menstruating she is mature enough to have sex. I wholeheartedly disagree. She is still a child even if she is menstruating. She has a lot of mental and emotional growth to do before she is ready for sex.
I'm going to answer this to clarify the position (and I'm sure not many will like it).
You do not need any kind "maturity" other than the bodily and hormonal one to have and enjoy sex. You do not even have to think about (other) animals, think about mentally handicapped people, those who mature very slowly. They may be 20, but in their head they may be a lot younger. Your position means, that mentally handicapped should never have sex.
Their body is that of a grown-up - and of course they can have and enjoy sex, however.
Then consider what sex means. For a young person "sex" is a whole new universe. The overwhelming majority take some time to explore it, step after step, touch after touch, as it should be, "learning" a lot, having always the option to stop. Sex is (or shouldn't be, at least) definitely not a headlong plunging-in (that problem arises mostly for those who grow-up with a strict "anti-sex" policy), but more a slow, incremental, step-by-step process. "Maturity" comes from experience, not just by living on.
However, sex involves a lot more than that, obviously, and THAT IS actually what it's about.
First there are those with a religious background: no sex outside of marriage, no sex with contraceptives. For those, the maturity argument is just a strawman anyway.
Then there are those who consider virginity a good, whether for religious or other reasons.
Then there are the consequences sex may have: pregnancy; veneral diseases; AIDS.
Then there are possible emotional problems that come with it.
Lastly, especially in the US, there is something like straight sex and pervert, forbidden or illegal sex as such, which means - in practise - if you practise sex that cannot lead to pregnancy, you starting to swerve onto criminal territory (and once you crossed over, there are those who would fear all kind of developments, like, being on some road to either hell or prostitution and probably both).
Rationally spoken, though, - that's all bollocks.
Of course we do not need to encourage sexual behaviour. But as Aculias said, our society has changed - we are an information society. Everyone can get any kind of information within seconds, and that means, that even REAL kids may forage into information they cannot really dig when they get them.
That's one thing I noticed with the current young generation, starting this millennium: they already KNOW (seemingly) everything. How this is and that feels. They know (seemingly) from TV and internet.
Which means, they lose what some here describe as "innocence" very rapidly, albeit only VIRTUALLY.
This isn't all bad, though. There are those who are simply satisfied when their questions are (seemingly) answered. They are content with VIRTUAL knowledge.
So it is, as it always was. How kids act on perceived knowledge, half, virtual or real, depends on their general character. Do they have a low self-confidence? In that case, they may feel they have something to prove to their peers and may plunge headlong into "grown-up territory. Are they confident? They will do everything in their own stride.
Of course, confidence isn't the only relevant factor, but the main thing is, if we educate our children in the right way, so that they do not have fears, are not lied to and are trusted step by step with more responsibility, we shouldn't have anything to fear.
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted January 17, 2012 01:12 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
OK, so your position is if a 10 year old girl is menstruating she is mature enough to have sex. I wholeheartedly disagree. She is still a child even if she is menstruating. She has a lot of mental and emotional growth to do before she is ready for sex.
I'm going to answer this to clarify the position (and I'm sure not many will like it).
You do not need any kind "maturity" other than the bodily and hormonal one to have and enjoy sex. You do not even have to think about (other) animals, think about mentally handicapped people, those who mature very slowly. They may be 20, but in their head they may be a lot younger. Your position means, that mentally handicapped should never have sex.
Their body is that of a grown-up - and of course they can have and enjoy sex, however.
I can assure you JJ that a girl who has menstruated at 10 certainly does not have the physical or mental capacity to deal with sex. When a girl starts to menstruate, whether it be 8/10 or 14, it is only her body starting to get ready for adulthood. Sex, pregnancy etc are all due to come later in a few years. Just because a girl now has her monthly's has never meant she is now physically an adult. I am gathering you have never been around a young girl of 9 who has just started menstruating. Because if you had you would understand my point better.
However, at 14, being much closer to adulthood is a different matter. But she still will not have the mental maturity to truly understand sex and her responsibilties to herself. You can teach it as much as you like, but until she is fully mature (mentally) it won't make much difference. And even with the best sex ed. in the world, she will still make major mistakes if she hasn't learned to respect sex and herself.
Maybe you've been lucky. Maybe the sex ed. you experienced was a great and positive thing. Proper information etc. However, there are generations (mine included) where sex ed. has been a ridiculous farce (not the parents fault - but the schools).
As I said before, it is a parents responsibility to educate, not the Government or school's decision, and it certainly isn't their right to decide at what age OUR children are taught sex ed.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 17, 2012 03:12 PM |
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Meroe, I think you miss the points. Completely.
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 17, 2012 03:20 PM |
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Jesus snow.... a 9 year old can enjoy sex because she had a period 
Never in my life have I encountered a 10 year old who was sexual in any manner, who expressed desire to have sex, when I was 10 I couldnt care less about sex, when I was 10 girls and boys looked exactly the same, when I look at 10 yo's today they still look the same so the concept of a 10 yo enjoying sex 
Things you are saying are starting to resemble... whatever, dropping it before things get out of hand...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 17, 2012 04:31 PM |
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Oh, please; before you start threats you should maybe read a couple of things - and of course posts - properly.
It looks like you have no idea about what you are talking with big words. It was YOU who claimed MANY would start menstruating with 8 or 9, and me who said, it was not many.
Menstruation is basically only the last step of female puberty, these being the stages:
adrenarche (approximately age 7)
gonadarche (approximately age 8)
thelarche (approximately age 11 in females)
pubarche (approximately age 12)
menarche (approximately age 12.5 in females)
spermarche (in males)
Thelarche is the stage when breasts starting to develop - note that this takes place some time BEFORE menarche (menstruation). Menstruating with 8 is possible, but rather rare.
Pubarche is the stage when pubic hair grows.
So it's not like menstruation hits everyone completely unexpected.
Now look at the average values and compare them with aoc in Germany, which is FOURTEEN.
8 and 9 is rather extreme, of course, however, I've known grown-ups who told about getting breasts with 10, menstruating with 11, being absolutely in love and prepared to explore things with 12, and of course being shocked out of it, when lectured about what was unfitting, impossible and even sinful and what not.
The truth is, that in this early age it is problematic for everyone to accept that childhood is basically over and adolescence begins. If kids are 12 or 13, it's considered ok, and in Germany that's not far away from aoc.
If it happens earlier, parental concern plays a massive role. Mothers and fathers have a problem imagining that their little prince, but especially the little princess will ALREADY start the next stage of development, where "dangers" lurk, and in our society no one really WANTS kids to mature fast, because we are simply OVER-protective
My point is, however, that it should depend on the kids. I'm sure that a menstruating 8-year-old won't feel good about the fact that she does, and I'm also sure that an 8-year-old will not WANT to face this, yet, because it's so... alien. She will feel like that, an alien among her peers, and I doubt that there will be any "carnal" interests at all. No one wants to be special by either being too late or too early.
However, the hormones are there. The functions are there. She will get 9 and 10 and 11, developing from that point, and she will be steered by her hormones, whether she wants it or not.
Just as the latecomers WON'T, when others already fantasize.
Sex isn't just penetration (another repetition). Sex is a whole universe of things to explore, and kids should take their time and explore it in their own stride.
I don't think that there is GENERALLY a right age for everything. There are people who should never have had children, even though they obviously can have them, and depending on how things work aout there may even be people who should have never had sex. Think about ASEXUAL people which exists as well.
What is right and what is not is different for everyone, and our education - I repeat that - should make sure that THE KIDS can judge it for themselves, because it's THEM who live in their skin, not their parents.
This would mean - in theory - YES, it's ultimately the parents who should decide; in practise, however, sadly, parents CANNOT BE TRUSTED when it comes to sex and sex ed. For one thing, they are overprotective. For two, many have actually no idea about fairly basic biological facts. For three, many are victims of their own screwed-up education and socialization. For four, there's a lot of cases of UNDERprotection as well, thinking about child abuse.
I'm sure, there are more reasons, but you get the drift. Parents tend to screw this up, mainly because they are afraid and their own education has been lacking.
That's why sex ed in school comes into play.
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted January 17, 2012 05:06 PM |
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Quote:
What is right and what is not is different for everyone, and our education - I repeat that - should make sure that THE KIDS can judge it for themselves, because it's THEM who live in their skin, not their parents.
Now I'm going to say this only once, and if you think I a wrong then prove it with scientific facts that show that I am generally (not in special cases) wrong:
0-14 year old lack the maturity to make such decisions themselves. Hell, girls develope faster mentally than boys, and they are only fully able to make cognative decissions at around 18-19 years of age. Guys gennerally are fully developed at age 21-22. How in the hell can we trust 9-12 year old children with any kind of planning or responsibility? Should they be allowed to run governments? It would be just about as complicated for them at their age and cause the same emotional instability that sex would.
Quote:
However, the hormones are there. The functions are there. She will get 9 and 10 and 11, developing from that point, and she will be steered by her hormones, whether she wants it or not.
Not completely, she will also be steered by her peers and what her parents tell her. She will recieve, better than most, the warnings because her cognative and memory skills will be more receptive to external inputs. Hormones will not play as much of a role as one would be led to believe, unless you are talking about emotions, which will become more bi-polar and extreme until the child learns how to handle them.
Quote:
This would mean - in theory - YES, it's ultimately the parents who should decide; in practise, however, sadly, parents CANNOT BE TRUSTED when it comes to sex and sex ed. For one thing, they are overprotective. For two, many have actually no idea about fairly basic biological facts. For three, many are victims of their own screwed-up education and socialization. For four, there's a lot of cases of UNDERprotection as well, thinking about child abuse.
1. Who are you to judge what a trustworth or untrustworth parent is? Your own pont, you are not them. There are more "Good" parents than there are abusive, overbearing or negligent.
2. They don't need to in this case, they experienced it themselves and their children are very similar to them biologically. Emotionally and reactionally their children should be similar or share some commonalities with their parents. For the physical aspect of sex, hells yeah the parent knows what goes on. They have a child, remember?
3. Their children will be socialized by their parents, and will have the same "Screwed up" socialization of the greatest shaping force that is shown to them. Parents are generally regarded as the most influential shaper of their child's mind until the age of 12, so the child will be very similar in beliefs to said parents with only slight modifications from their peers until then. After a while, the child will rely on peers more (when their mid is slowing down its developement), and they will be shaped more by experiences and friends then their parents. As we are talking about <12 year olds here, I think that your third point is invalid in that it doesn't make a difference, the child thinks like a mini version of his/ her parent.
4. That isn't "Uderprotection" (which is neglect, BTW), that is abuse. Abuse is an active surge of violence, verbal or physical, that is consciopusly directed on a person or other living object. It is ot protection of any kind, it is the oposite of protection. Underprotective parents just don't care about their child and give them the cold shoulder.
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Smithey
Promising
Supreme Hero
Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted January 17, 2012 05:39 PM |
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Edited by Smithey at 17:54, 17 Jan 2012.
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JJ, dont be ridiculous, nobody isnt threatening you, this is the internet, its just that when hearing "10 yo have fun having sex" it sounds awfully a lot like predators saying "what we have is special, we are in love"...
With that being said, I dont know you man, I have no idea how your parents raised you, I have no idea how will you raise your kids and it is pretty much your thing...
In my world, parenting is just that, being protective of our kids, matter of fact I see it as our job to protect kids, even when its a case of protecting them from themselves because as it seems we're more mature than little kids (one must hope at least)...
Whether that means saying yes on a surgery which might save my kid's life even though he/she's screaming that he doesnt want a surgery, whether it is explaning what drugs do and making sure he/she never does them or at least does them in a safe environment, whether it is explaining about sex and doing everything I can to prevent it from happening till at least 16 yo, yes it is my job to protect my kids from anything and anyone out there untill they are mature enough to think for themselves and big enough to protect themselves...
You feel like you should let your kids experiment with drugs, sex and whatever at early stages, go ahead, I call it snowty parenting, we dont see eye to eye and its perfectly cool...
I think one of the biggest flaws of todays parenting is exactly in things such as sexual ed's, these days parents send their kids off to private schools and forget about them, its up to school to teach my kids math and history, its up to me as a parent to teach him/her the other stuff, thats what parenting is all about, schools have no business parenting kids, parents do, and those who fail shouldnt be parents in the first place...
You say lets drop the responsibility for our kids on school system instead of on us parents... I say SNOW no !!! Its our job as well as our privilege...
____________
She turned me into a newt!
A newt?
I got better
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted January 17, 2012 05:40 PM |
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AOC in Germany is 14 as long as the other partner is not over 18. Which is often the case where there is a low AOC.
However, going on about biological doctrine is good for a basis I guess. Its whether its morally right that is the issue. Biologically anyone could take a dump in the street, right by someone sitting having a nice coffee. I mean its just a human biological function right? We are all physically capable of doing that, but we don't.
Its the same with our sex drive and behavior. We don't run around sleeping with everything that moves (although some do) because it causes massive problems, mentally, physically (diseases) and morally. We learn to control ourselves, we are responsible, not to just ourselves but to others. And these are family issues that almost every child who hasn't grown up in isolation will recognise and understand. We also instil a moral sexual code in our children and no Government has the right to dictate to parents how and when their children are going to learn about sex (their politically correct/modern version), just because of a minority of useless/abusive parents. You wouldn't let some faceless Government official or teacher you've never met before wash and bathe your children in your absence would you?? No. So why the hell would you let them call the shots regarding your children's sex education?
Oh and regarding the Biology lesson regarding menstruation etc -
I've read biology books, yes I get what happens biologically. I have been through this. However, we all develop at a different rate. What you wrote above is a guide, an approximation. No one I ever knew in school was developing breasts by 11. Most girls considered themselves lucky if they were showing anything at 13, even those who had started menstruating.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 17, 2012 05:45 PM |
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Quote:
Now I'm going to say this only once, and if you think I a wrong then prove it with scientific facts that show that I am generally (not in special cases) wrong:
With due respect - who do you think you are? Master of Facts?
What kind of behaviour is that supposed to be? A mature one? I bang a couple of claims on the table, and now you prove to me I'm wrong.
A simple check of the phrase PSYCHOLOGICAL MATURITY would bring up the following:
Quote:
Maturity is a psychological term used to indicate how a person responds to the circumstances or environment in an appropriate manner. This response is generally learned rather than instinctive, and is not determined by one's age.
While it has been shown that older persons are generally more mature, psychological maturity is not determined by one's age. However, for legal purposes, people are not considered psychologically mature enough to perform certain tasks (such as driving, consenting to sex, signing a binding contract or making medical decisions) until they have reached a certain age... The relationship between psychological maturity and age is a difficult one, and there has been much debate over methods of determining maturity, especially regarding social issues such as religion, politics, human stem-cell research, genetic engineering and abortion.
To tell the truth, I don't even know what your point is - children are copies of their parents anyway and no matter what, and no class will change anything about them screwing their kids up, if they do?
That's nonsense - but I still seem to read that in your post. What IS your point, anyway?
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This thread is pages long: 
