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| Thread: General discussion of Heroes IV features |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV |
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted September 04, 2023 12:12 PM |
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Ghost said:
So H3 HotA must have a Stealth.. And many mapmakers create thousands.. But also from the bosses.. A normal game, you reach too little..
In Heroes IV Stealth only works if the hero is without an army but in Heroes III HotA heroes can't be without an army...
How would you solve that? Cause, imagine a guy with Expert Stealth sneaking through your main castle with hundreds of level 7 units or waiting for the end turn where you made your main fast by leaving troops in a mine or secondary hero and attack you.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted September 04, 2023 12:39 PM |
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bloodsucker said:
Ghost said:
So H3 HotA must have a Stealth.. And many mapmakers create thousands.. But also from the bosses.. A normal game, you reach too little..
In Heroes IV Stealth only works if the hero is without an army but in Heroes III HotA heroes can't be without an army...
How would you solve that? Cause, imagine a guy with Expert Stealth sneaking through your main castle with hundreds of level 7 units or waiting for the end turn where you made your main fast by leaving troops in a mine or secondary hero and attack you.
You are right.. Remember expert Scouting can see Stealther.. No sense! Yesterday I'm tired too much due to two sleeping pills.. Only H3 WoG 3.58f, because of MOD, vlaad created stealth artifact, ok 
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted September 04, 2023 06:34 PM |
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Scouting is worst ability group and need completly rewriting. Only sensible is former logistic and pathfinding and navigation but only with big waters. Harm because we have only 9 groups. But might its only 4 groups for 6! heroes.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted September 04, 2023 06:56 PM |
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Scouting is a very good, I need an open view! Fog of war is evil, when H4 standad or H4 GS you can find a fog of war under the enemies.. WoW removed and caused AIs have a problem.. WoW harder, thus Bow of the Elf King no longer -1 remains arrow but zero, or GS' Goblin knight hasn't magic resistance, etc But WoW gives to AIs a problem.. When WoW "fixed" all.. So Scouting helps me, one still what? Scouting skill and Scouting artifacts are OP than your creature in mines, etc GM players used Scouting creatures  Yes I'm also using, but I want be larger radius..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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Sammyboi123
Hired Hero
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posted September 05, 2023 09:44 PM |
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Albyx said:
If you feel like it's absolutely nessesary to give all heroes 3 skills from the start, you can give thief advanced stealth.
I think vanilla starting skills are fine and there is no need to reinvent them. And thiefs shouldn't lose their stealth skill, that's what makes them special and different from other classes!
Edit: Nimo, I responded to you in Enhancement Mod topic
I agree that the starting skills are fine, no need to change them. Nimo changed the spellcasters from having their mana skill at basic for starters to having their potency skill at basic. (Along with also giving you the optional skill). The problem is that this makes mana very very tight in the first week or so, and you can’t pop advanced magic at lvl 2 like usual.
As far as thieves, I would support them starting with advanced scouting and nothing else. That would make them immediately useful on day 1, in the sense of giving you an exact counts on the wolf stack guarding you ore for instance, letting you make better informed decisions about what to fight. From there you can dive into pathfinding which I expect would be the typical choice, or map-dependently get into seamanship or stealth. It is just a more flexible start for the thief rather than basic scouting and stealth.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted September 06, 2023 02:51 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 03:04, 06 Sep 2023.
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Quote:
The problem is that this makes mana very very tight in the first week or so, and you can’t pop advanced magic at lvl 2 like usual.
That is absolutely intended. Otherwise mana skill as freebie is pointless. Having ten (!) spellcasts per fight at level 1 is excessive.
A spell costs 2 mana, while you start with 20 mana with those extra skills.
Remember that H3 only had 1-2 spells per fight at level 1 at max.
Many people have agreed that in H4, mana is too easy. You have more mana regeneration, more mana adventure objects, you get mana from mage guilds faster... and 5 skills that only give you more and faster mana. All this while spells costs up to 3 times less (level 1 spell in H3 costed 6 spell points, in h4 just 2 spell points).
And then you have cheap mana potions +25 mana that goes over the limit and can be just bought limitlessly save for a few gold.
Also lots of artifacts that reduce spell point cost (including the "item-level-0" mage staff), to the point spell points are redundant in vanilla game. And more spell points "over the limit" effects, including common map objects.
It is simply badly designed, probably by someone with an axe to grind against H3 system.
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Sammyboi123
Hired Hero
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posted September 06, 2023 07:30 AM |
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NimoStar said:
Quote:
The problem is that this makes mana very very tight in the first week or so, and you can’t pop advanced magic at lvl 2 like usual.
That is absolutely intended. Otherwise mana skill as freebie is pointless. Having ten (!) spellcasts per fight at level 1 is excessive.
A spell costs 2 mana, while you start with 20 mana with those extra skills.
Remember that H3 only had 1-2 spells per fight at level 1 at max.
Many people have agreed that in H4, mana is too easy. You have more mana regeneration, more mana adventure objects, you get mana from mage guilds faster... and 5 skills that only give you more and faster mana. All this while spells costs up to 3 times less (level 1 spell in H3 costed 6 spell points, in h4 just 2 spell points).
And then you have cheap mana potions +25 mana that goes over the limit and can be just bought limitlessly save for a few gold.
Also lots of artifacts that reduce spell point cost (including the "item-level-0" mage staff), to the point spell points are redundant in vanilla game. And more spell points "over the limit" effects, including common map objects.
It is simply badly designed, probably by someone with an axe to grind against H3 system.
I don’t disagree with you, in particular the point about stockpiling mana potions (although correct me if I’m wrong but not every faction has mana pots in their armory) I wish that wasn’t a thing. Immortality potions are an even more egregious offender, those things have absolutely no business being in armories and should be a rare and valuable find on the map only.
Wanted to add a few counter points though. Spell casting is much more difficult to do effectively in H4 than H3, so it makes sense to be able to toss a few more spells around in compensation. First of all you have line of sight to worry about. Although it might not matter too much with an AI opponent, against a skilled human who is correctly manipulating LoS is not easy to work around. Which is what I think we should be balancing things around at the end of the day.
Also your spell selections are much more limited. In H3 you get 5-6 spells at lvl 1 whereas with lvl 1 (basic) in H4 you get only 3-4 to start with. Furthermore you are constrained by your faction’s magic can give you.
I could go on but last point I’ll make is the obvious fact your magic hero can die in H4 unlike H3. So you could argue, well if you have what it takes to keep them alive and in the fight then why not give this hero a generous amount of mana to utilize. Seems fair.
Overall I would agree with your assessment only for magic-magic advanced class heroes who are developing 2 mana skills, or eventually 3 or 4 after segueing into an archmage if the game goes long. However, isn’t the entire point of these heroes to have a big pool of mana to spell sling off with good options and coverage using different schools? They literally do nothing else after all.
If we are talking a might-magic advanced class, whether you are keeping it straightforward by just focusing on your core magic skills while adding the optional skill, combat, and magic resistance OR are doing a hybrid build with magic + either scouting, tactics or nobility then I think there is still plenty involved in managing your mana off of only 1 mana contributing skill.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted September 06, 2023 03:17 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 15:28, 06 Sep 2023.
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Quote:
Also your spell selections are much more limited. In H3 you get 5-6 spells at lvl 1 whereas with lvl 1 (basic) in H4 you get only 3-4 to start with. Furthermore you are constrained by your faction’s magic can give you.
You may get 5-6 spells at h3 level 1 but most of them will be useless, while H4 spells are more generally useful.
I have also expanded the domain of each magic type and increased the versatility of spells and adjusted their power so you don't have "dead slots".
So in H4 in general but also in H4 Ultimate in particular, those "3-4 spells" are generally better than in H3 where you can get stuff like "Protection from Water" or "Scuttle Boat".
And yes, your spellcasting hero can die. But also your tactician hero can die and you lose the creature bonuses, while in H3 that just doesn't happen. So this is no argument to make spellcasting better. Rather this is more than compensated by the fact that you can and will have at least 2-3 heroes per army.
In total you can have 7 spellcasting rounds per turn and that's not even counting spellcasting creature summons, which you can summon in addition with your up to seven spellcaster summoner heroes...
And "if we are talking level 1", this is even possible in level 1 in normal H4 with leprechauns... *
So yeah, but no ;P
* (thus also making Fortune level 2 spell of the same school useless in regular H4, which is why I switched them along making Leprechauns a better rounded creature rather than just "spell-in-a-can")
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted September 06, 2023 06:52 PM |
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You don't understand Stronghold gets Nature without Leprechauns.. Asylum and Haven too.. Preserve has own bonus or benefit 
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted September 06, 2023 10:05 PM |
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I meant the spell "summon leprechauns" and "fortune", both are magic not the creature from portal or the summoning skill. If you can get one spell you can get the other, and Summon Leprechaun is level 1, thus making the level 2 bad in comparison.
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Sammyboi123
Hired Hero
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posted September 13, 2023 08:24 PM |
bonus applied by Galaad on 20 Sep 2023. |
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baronus said:
Scouting is worst ability group and need completly rewriting. Only sensible is former logistic and pathfinding and navigation but only with big waters. Harm because we have only 9 groups. But might its only 4 groups for 6! heroes.
I get why some players think scouting is bad, and actually would agree in some cases however with an important caveat; it depends on the type of game you’re playing. Are you playing against the AI, or a skilled human in a serious game.
Against the AI, I agree that scouting is generally bad. When playing the AI, you can and should load whenever something bad happens, potentially all the way back weeks ago, as you experiment with the exact set of moves you need to make in order to win the game against a sloppy but overpowered AI.
Serious games against humans are completely different. There is no loading when things go bad, and 1 poor engagement with the neutrals can cost you the entire game. Risk vs reward management is a massive part of the process with these sorts of games, NOT experimentation. On that note, scouting makes that process MUCH more reliable. Let’s talk about a few of the features.
Scouting radius: Very important in a PvP environment. Having better scouting radius than your opponent allows you to spot them first on the adventure map, meaning you don’t have to reveal your hand unless you are ready. You can retreat if they are stronger than you, or set a trap if you are strong than them. You can make a reasonable prediction as to what moves they might make over the next couple days and play around that with that knowledge. You can spot their scouts from further away and dispatch a lvl 3 or 4 to assassinate them. The better your scouting, the easier this all is.
Basic perk: reveals additional information about adventure map objects and treasures. Very important in PvP. This allows you to plan your hero builds much more effectively. You can analyze key structures and items without having to fight guards first. Let’s say a mage’s chest contains a staff of summoning but the guards are too strong to fight at the moment. Thanks to scouting however, I know to team up with the nature heroes rather than the order heroes (if I’m playing life for example). I have that heads up now rather than teaming up with order, and later when getting that mages chest being disappointed. Against the AI you simply load back a few weeks, but obviously you can’t do that against a human. Even little things like not going a day or 2 out if your way to hit a magic university with no useful skills is important to know due to having scouting.
Advanced perk: reveals exact counts on stacks of units. Again, very important for PvP but almost entirely useless against AI. Let’s say you are trying to decide if fighting a “few” black dragons is appropriate to get your gold mine ASAP. There is a massive difference between fighting 1 or fighting 3 of them. Again, you can’t just load in a PvP. Once you commit to an attack, that’s that. Now admittedly you can just sacrifice a lvl 1 creature to find out this information, but that’s not always feasible later in the game when you are on the move, and you don’t want to be sacrificing a level 3 to find out, which will probably be the lowest tier creature in your army late game.
Expert perk: computer gives you a prediction of the fight. This one isn’t very useful. Any experienced player can tell how a fight is likely to go better than that silly prediction. The only thing of potential value is tipping you off as to when your Charm or Diplomacy skill will trigger when using these skills. In equilibris it will trigger when “you have the advantage against this army” or better, in vanilla it will only trigger when “you will squash this army like a bug”.
Master perk: view details of enemy heroes. EXTREMELY important in PvP. Before committing to a battle with the enemy player, being able to examine all their skills, look at their stats and spells and what artifacts they have is so important for preparing yourself. You can change formations based on what you see, and formulate a general strategy and know exactly what to expect before the battle begins. Against AI, clearly you just load after finding all this out the hard way.
GM perk: view enemy town screens. This one is of limited usefulness. Not a whole lot to be gained here. If you have them pinned in a town, you are probably winning already, no need to press a risky attack. You can already tell what level of fortification they have based on the visuals of their town. I only recommend GM if you have reason to believe you will need to counter an opponent using GM stealth against you.
In summary, yes scouting is bad against AI but against humans I assure you that your scouting hero, with their miscellaneous artifact slots stuffed with telescopes and viewing crystals will be your best friend.
Try testing these things by simulating a PvP by playing against yourself. That’s right, play against yourself- load up a multiplayer game and control more than 1 player. just make a conscious effort to be unbiased and only act on what each player has actually scouted or can logically assume. These sorts of games are great fun anyways, more so that playing the AI in my opinion. Once you are confident in your skills, join a discord group and battle others over Hamachi.
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TheUnknown
Known Hero
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posted September 19, 2023 11:11 PM |
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Potential scouting improvements
So how about we first add parts of seamanship to Scouting and Stealth?
For example Scouting increases your sea travel distance, but stealth helps with board unboard penalties for your army?
Then we will have one slot for specific skill. For example:
1. I had an idea once posted a while ago, that thieves can create potions each day.
If not as a skill, maybe the nobility + scouting bonus could have this ability?
2. Vodoo ... casting curses on hits, like evil eye, but instead of the spells the evil eye casts, to cast other random spells.
3. Wittiness ... grants abilities based on skill level, for example grandmaster would get binding and mana leech, master would have strike and return and unlimited shots, expert would get charging and ranged first strike, advanced would get negate first strike, basic would get immune to blind.
4. Discipline ... increases hero morale and luck by 1
5. Conviction ... reduces creature prices (like the artifact, up to 50%), stacks with artifact
Equilibris added a type of movement bonus for the nobility tree, so we may add something for scouting as well.
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Albyx
Known Hero
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posted September 20, 2023 07:53 AM |
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Activated "Invisibility" combat ability for learning Stealth will make scouting + magic combos interesting. Imagine casting armageddon with your fire diviner while being unreachable to enemies, or hypnotyzing with your seer!
We already have spell that makes creatures technically invisible, it's Sanctuary. Version from H4 without addons reminds of invisibility even more as it was single target back then.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted September 20, 2023 10:13 AM |
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Combat + Scouting is strong, I've tested the game, lvl 40 with super artifacts are an example of Robe of the Guardian, Flaming Arrow and Frost Hammer.. So Barbarian Ranger hero with only level 1 creatures from dwellings, and Barbarian hero can't walk around, thus mountain blockade, but 5 AI teams can come through portal, and attack against Barbarian hero. Time express in which Barbarian hero or allied AIs are winner. I gave a funny to computer.. Maybe I'm mad, but I've feelings.. Yes a very close to time is over, but AI succeed to beat the Barbarian hero.. AI with the largest troops, when never visited, and other 3 allied AIs were hurry.. I had a fun.. Stronger hero was Tactics + Combat, thus lvl 1 creatures get a power..
Ninja and Seer also Bard aren't cool.. Story? Not today..
Scouting + Nobility is the easiest game.. But Scouting + Tactics or Life and/or Chaos are the best choice.. So you see Haven and Asylum get a benefit in skill tree/class.. Scouting and Nobility for Academy, and Asylum looking for Altar, etc And then Stronghold can use Scouting + Nobility.. I must to think everything.. Ok yes Necropolis too..
So H4 is decent already! I analyzed all/each one.. Now I'm playing the most H3.. I started to forget H4 things, but only I'm knowing that balanced and decent H4.. I'm playing only H3 and H4 already 24 years..
Scouting is so fast.. No combat but other skills, so you will get easily, if your hero is scout.. And go to towns, etc When hero is strong than town's neutrals, for example.. The same H3.. Then to build University.. skill isn't hard.. Think about first University, and then collecting experience points.. You must to pay it, if you want be extra OP.. Sacrifice! Cheap..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted September 25, 2023 02:49 AM |
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Sammyboi123 said:
Advanced perk: reveals exact counts on stacks of units ... Let’s say you are trying to decide if fighting a “few” black dragons is appropriate to get your gold mine ASAP. There is a massive difference between fighting 1 or fighting 3 of them.
You can just send a single squire in to get that information.
I agree with your other points.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted September 25, 2023 10:15 AM |
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heymlich said:
Sammyboi123 said:
Advanced perk: reveals exact counts on stacks of units ... Let’s say you are trying to decide if fighting a “few” black dragons is appropriate to get your gold mine ASAP. There is a massive difference between fighting 1 or fighting 3 of them.
You can just send a single squire in to get that information.
I agree with your other points.
But what if you are playing an hero-only custom map 
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