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| Thread: Faction Discussion - Dungeon |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Rimgrabber
Promising
Famous Hero
Voice in Gelu's Head
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posted November 16, 2024 09:50 PM |
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That might have been cool, but I see why they wouldn't do such a big overhaul in theme of an classic faction when they're already reflacoring Inferno so much.
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LordInsane
Known Hero
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posted November 17, 2024 01:45 AM |
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AirikrStrife said:
Exactly, I would've wanted a merchant based faction (call it Kontor) that has unique focus on resources and trade if possible, quite decent magicians and then uses units from the alliance of jadame as mercenaries to fill up the rooster, with minotaurs and trolls and dragons it still would have some dungeon like attributes
I'd personally have done Dungeon as a separate faction (the Dark Dwarves were right there as an alternative conceptual core), though if Kontor/City/Whatever the Alvarian faction would be called has to be the closest thing*, they could perhaps have given it a few Mountain/Warlock nods that Dungeon (whether H3 or Ashan) lacked.
(*My own ideas for a Jadamean faction lineup actually had them as a Knight successor of sorts)
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 19, 2024 02:37 AM |
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Syth1984 said:
Should drop level 2 or 3 for a monster(harpy is a good fit). I just don't like filling the line up with dark elves. Otherwise I find the lineup solid.
I agree about the dark elves feeling out of place, I don't understand why they keep pushing them. The whole point of Dungeon's line-up should be monsters that are imposing and terrifying. Stalker and dancer do not fit that criteria and pull the theme in a different direction. Harpy and sorcerer would have been much better.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted November 22, 2024 12:56 AM |
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Stevie said:
I agree about the dark elves feeling out of place, I don't understand why they keep pushing them. The whole point of Dungeon's line-up should be monsters that are imposing and terrifying. Stalker and dancer do not fit that criteria and pull the theme in a different direction. Harpy and sorcerer would have been much better.
I think it's pragmatic. Dark elves are a major race on Jadame, even more common than humans, so representing them as units pays homage to Might and Magic VIII. Additionally, dark elves have been associated with Dungeon for the last three games, so putting the NWC-verse dark elves in that faction also makes sense from a layman's perspective. You have to realise that the average player knows nothing of the lore and has only played HoMM 3 and 5, so making a faction that fuses the Dungeon of 3 and 5 while still being at least somewhat in-line with the lore is a good choice to make the game feel approachable.
As for the unit choices, rogues/bandits/assassins have been a creature in every single HoMM game, moved to the Dungeon-adjacent town in 4 and staying there ever since. It makes perfect sense to carry that over and have it be represented by a dark elf. The Chakram Dancer I'm less thrilled with; I would've preferred one dark elf unit or the other. However, being generous, if they were going to bring in two dark elves I'm glad they went with a callback to a really distinct and memorable design.
I totally get why people have reservations about Dungeon's design because I do dislike some of those same choices, but I understand why they were made and appreciate the end result.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 22, 2024 09:53 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 10:45, 22 Nov 2024.
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One issue with the Dark Elves is that they've eclipsed all of the other races in the faction. In Heroes 3, the races of the Dungeon heroes were humans (6), minotaurs (5) and troglodytes (5), with Mutare (human) and Mutare Drake (dragon) added as a campaign-only heroes in Armageddon's Blade. Things get even more diverse in Heroes 4, which drops troglodytes, but adds efreets, orcs, and a single goblin, with the numbers now being humans (14), minotaurs (12), efreets (12), orcs (11) and goblins (1), with Kozuss and Spazz Maticus (both humans) added as campaign only heroes in The Gathering Storm and Winds of War respectively. You get to the ubisoft era though, and there's not a human, minotaur or anything else not a dark elf seen in any roster of heroes.
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Dj
Promising
Supreme Hero
Always loyal to HC
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posted November 22, 2024 10:46 AM |
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While I don’t have major issues with this Dungeon overall, I feel the developers have incorporated too much of the Ashan Dungeon, making it unsuitable for Enroth.
In my view, this was a poor decision.
The Enroth Dungeon traditionally focuses on experimental monsters like harpies, beholders, and manticores. However, it seems they might reserve harpies for an Orc faction—yet another Ashan Stronghold adaptation.
Meanwhile, the continent of Jadame already hosts a Lizardmen faction (The Daggerwound Isles), which would have been an ideal choice for a Fortress-inspired faction featuring creatures like Hydras or Scyllas. Instead, I suspect they’ll opt for Sanctuary-style aesthetics.
This feels like Enroth in Ashan’s skin, and from both a lore and aesthetic perspective, it’s already falling short (at least for me).
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted November 22, 2024 09:15 PM |
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Dj said:
The Enroth Dungeon traditionally focuses on experimental monsters like harpies, beholders, and manticores.
Not really. When you say "Enroth" in that context, you're really only talking about Heroes III. They've otherwise had a hodgepodge of themes. In the first two games and arguably IV as well, they were a random smattering of thematically unrelated creatures in a swamp setting. III established them as the underworld faction that used a bunch of tough monsters from DnD, and V solidified that while shifting the influence to Warhammer. "Dark elves", speaking broadly, is the only consistent theme Dungeon has had. Given that Might and Magic VIII had dark elves as a major theme, I think it makes perfect sense to continue that trend into the new setting.
I mean, you can make the same argument in reverse. Let's say they had Dungeon but didn't use dark elves. People would be like "The setting you chose is a dark elf game. Why aren't the dark elves in the faction they've always been in?"
Dj said:
However, it seems they might reserve harpies for an Orc faction—yet another Ashan Stronghold adaptation.
That was started by Heroes IV. III is the only time in the series where harpies have been in Dungeon.
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LordInsane
Known Hero
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posted November 23, 2024 01:21 AM |
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MurlocAggroB said:
Not really. When you say "Enroth" in that context, you're really only talking about Heroes III. They've otherwise had a hodgepodge of themes. In the first two games and arguably IV as well, they were a random smattering of thematically unrelated creatures in a swamp setting. III established them as the underworld faction that used a bunch of tough monsters from DnD, and V solidified that while shifting the influence to Warhammer. "Dark elves", speaking broadly, is the only consistent theme Dungeon has had. Given that Might and Magic VIII had dark elves as a major theme, I think it makes perfect sense to continue that trend into the new setting.
I mean, you can make the same argument in reverse. Let's say they had Dungeon but didn't use dark elves. People would be like "The setting you chose is a dark elf game. Why aren't the dark elves in the faction they've always been in?"
I doubt it; people aware that the setting they chose is a dark elf game would also be aware that those dark elves are not at all like the dark elves of Ashan in terms of look and chosen environment.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 23, 2024 02:20 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 11:35, 23 Nov 2024.
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MurlocAggroB said:
Not really. When you say "Enroth" in that context, you're really only talking about Heroes III. They've otherwise had a hodgepodge of themes. In the first two games and arguably IV as well, they were a random smattering of thematically unrelated creatures in a swamp setting. III established them as the underworld faction that used a bunch of tough monsters from DnD, and V solidified that while shifting the influence to Warhammer. "Dark elves", speaking broadly, is the only consistent theme Dungeon has had. Given that Might and Magic VIII had dark elves as a major theme, I think it makes perfect sense to continue that trend into the new setting.
I mean, you can make the same argument in reverse. Let's say they had Dungeon but didn't use dark elves. People would be like "The setting you chose is a dark elf game. Why aren't the dark elves in the faction they've always been in?"
Literally none of the NWC-era Heroes games had any dark elves in Dungeon. What do you mean the faction they've always been in, what are you even talking about? No one would be asking that question. What Heroes between 1-4 had any dark elves at all for that matter?
Your argument boils down to these two points:
One, dark elves are present in Jadame, therefore they fit in Dungeon specifically. - this is arbitrary and does not follow. You can claim this about any other faction set in Jadame and have dark elves in Temple, in Sylvan, virtually anywhere. Wait, is Hive from outer space? Well, too bad because now they're in Jadame and we're all about dark elves here, slam one in there too for good measure. And it would not even be limited to just dark elves were this a sound argument. Pixies and Unicorns in Dungeon because they're from Jadame. Doesn't make any sense and is a weak argument to say the least.
Two, quote ""Dark elves", speaking broadly, is the only consistent theme Dungeon has had". - this is only true in the context of Ashan Dungeon and not at all true for Enroth Dungeon. Guess, which setting is Dungeon in with Olden Era? No wonder it feels like Ashan is intruding, of course it is, that's the point DJ is making. Dark elves in Dungeon is exclusively an Ashan thing and they're exporting that to Enroth.
Another error you have in your argument is how you're saying dark elves are a theme. No, they're not. They're a race. And they fail at trying to fit the actual theme in question. Because, as I said before, Enroth-era Dungeon was all about large and terrifying creatures that were in your face in combat and you had to wrestle with them. Something called "stalker" and "dancer" are anything but that.
Would it matter so much were the units good and valuable to Dungeon? It wouldn't, and I could rest my case here, but I'm afraid it's not obvious enough what I'm trying to say. They simply aren't. They are generic, don't fit thematically and reek of Ashan cheapness. And the more I think of it, the more I realize what it means and the more egregious it looks. They're snowizing Enroth to please the Ashan agenda their overlords over at Ubisoft HQ impose on this franchise. That's just it.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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LordInsane
Known Hero
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posted November 23, 2024 03:37 AM |
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H1/H2 Warlock does have one obvious theme: it's the 'monster' town, as in it's the town that's all "monster" in its lineup (Necromancer somewhat infringes on that in H2, but it still has dead humanoids keeping a humanoid silhouette in it). Those monsters are drawn from two sources (ancient Greek and medieval European) and don't all fit an 'experimental' fold, but it's still a clear thematic underpinning (and, of course, it's two sources, not a complete hodgepodge. If anything, Sorceress is far worse on that account).
H3 Dungeon does somewhat leave that, though mostly because Fortress and Inferno infringes, but it in turn has five of seven creatures fit an experimental/'creature combination' mold (with one of the other creatures leaning into the new underground setting).
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted November 23, 2024 11:35 PM |
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LordInsane said:
H1/H2 Warlock does have one obvious theme: it's the 'monster' town, as in it's the town that's all "monster" in its lineup
If you say so. In my opinion, the Warlock town is as disconnected as you could possibly make a collection of six basic mythological creatures. I don't see it as a monster town, because centaurs aren't beasts like the rest of them.
Anyways, the reason I bring up Dark Elves is because, even though this game isn't in the same setting as Ashan, it's still in the same franchise. Dark Elves were introduced to the HoMM series as Dungeon creatures. It's been established that that's where they go.
Stevie said:
and reek of Ashan cheapness
I think the problem is that you and I have strongly different opinions about the Ashan setting. I don't like it as much as the OG setting, like not even half as much, but that doesn't mean it's without merit or pointless to cross-reference. They're part of the family.
Also:
Stevie said:
They're snowizing Enroth to please the Ashan agenda their overlords over at Ubisoft HQ impose on this franchise. That's just it.
Okay grandma, that's very lovely. Wow, government is planting microchips in your food? That's crazy, naughty government. Time for you to go back to the home. See you next Christmas!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 24, 2024 02:13 AM |
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MurlocAggroB said:
Stevie said:
and reek of Ashan cheapness
I think the problem is that you and I have strongly different opinions about the Ashan setting. I don't like it as much as the OG setting, like not even half as much, but that doesn't mean it's without merit or pointless to cross-reference. They're part of the family.
That’s a fair interpretation, but I’d argue that being part of the franchise doesn’t mean we’re obligated to treat it as part of the same creative legacy. Just because Ashan exists under the same brand doesn’t mean it has any rightful claim to influence or reshape Enroth. Franchise ownership aside, the two settings were developed with entirely separate visions, and lumping them together doesn’t do justice to what makes Enroth meaningful to its fans.
In the case of Olden Era, this is a game explicitly set in Enroth. By its very premise, Ashan doesn’t have a place here. Its inclusion feels unnecessary and out of context, especially when Enroth has more than enough depth, lore, and potential to stand on its own. Fans of Enroth are here for that world and its identity —not for elements imported from a completely unrelated setting.
So while I get the idea that Ashan is technically part of the franchise, that doesn’t obligate us to accept its influence in Olden Era. In fact, it makes more sense to keep the two entirely separate. This game is about celebrating Enroth, and bringing Ashan into the mix only detracts from that focus.
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted November 24, 2024 02:30 AM |
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Galaad said:
That’s a fair interpretation, but I’d argue that being part of the franchise doesn’t mean we’re obligated to treat it as part of the same creative legacy. Just because Ashan exists under the same brand doesn’t mean it has any rightful claim to influence or reshape Enroth. Franchise ownership aside, the two settings were developed with entirely separate visions, and lumping them together doesn’t do justice to what makes Enroth meaningful to its fans.
The people who have played Heroes of Might and Magic V vastly, vastly outnumber the people who have played Might and Magic VIII. I'm not saying that makes paying homage to HoMM5 more correct, but that does make it smarter. Olden Era's biggest selling point has been feeling familiar. They should extend that familiarity across the widest net they can.
Plus, again, including dark elves as a major faction at all is still paying homage to MM8. They're not rejecting the old setting, they're adapting it to a larger legacy. It's no different than HoMM3 switching from Forgotten Realms-eque pig orcs to Warcraft greenskins after that got popular.
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LordInsane
Known Hero
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posted November 24, 2024 02:38 AM |
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MurlocAggroB said:
Plus, again, including dark elves as a major faction at all is still paying homage to MM8. They're not rejecting the old setting, they're adapting it to a larger legacy. It's no different than HoMM3 switching from Forgotten Realms-eque pig orcs to Warcraft greenskins after that got popular.
If you say so. In my opinion, overwriting the more interesting MM8 dark elves with boring Ashan dark elves is not paying homage to MM8 and it definitely is rejecting the old setting in that aspect.
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted November 24, 2024 02:53 AM |
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Again, it's not trying to be a 1:1 recreation of MM8, it's a pragmatic interpretation made using familiar factions from across the franchise. It's like if you were making a custom map based on Jadame, and you had a town at your disposal that had dark elf units in it. Of course you use that town to represent the dark elves!
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LordInsane
Known Hero
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posted November 24, 2024 05:41 AM |
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Pragmatic it may be, but calling it an interpretation is pretty generous given it's all Ashan and no Jadame.
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted November 24, 2024 06:00 AM |
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I would describe it as 67% Antagarich, 30% Ashan, 3% Jadame personally.
I think your argument is missing the forest for the trees. Again, I've been saying that it's not a faction based on MM8. The dark elves in MM8 aren't the Dungeon of Olden Era. An amalgamation of the Dungeon faction of HoMM is being used to represent the dark elves of MM8, if that makes sense.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 24, 2024 01:27 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 13:31, 24 Nov 2024.
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MurlocAggroB said:
The people who have played Heroes of Might and Magic V vastly, vastly outnumber the people who have played Might and Magic VIII. I'm not saying that makes paying homage to HoMM5 more correct, but that does make it smarter. Olden Era's biggest selling point has been feeling familiar. They should extend that familiarity across the widest net they can.
Yes, HoMM5 had a vast player base, but it’s important to remember that HoMM3 was just as popular, if not more so, within the Heroes community. The original Enroth fans who grew up with HoMM3 (and older titles) form a significant part of the franchise’s legacy, and they are the very audience Olden Era is targeting. In fact, HoMM5’s success was more due to its gameplay improvements than its Ashan lore or 3D visuals, which many long-time fans found disconnected from the essence of the series. The Ashan aesthetic, with its polished, high-fantasy elements, feels out of place when compared to the more grounded art style of Enroth.
By replicating the HoMM3 adventure map, Olden Era aligns itself with the nostalgic, traditional feel that HoMM3 players loved. This decision is core to the game’s identity and is precisely why it resonates with players looking for a return to Enroth. Olden Era isn’t just looking to capture the gameplay but also the tone, atmosphere, and design principles that made the NWC era so beloved.
When it comes to the Dungeon faction, I agree with you a dark elf unit could work in Olden Era, but it must be visually distinct from Ashan’s version. The sleek, ethereal designs of Ashan’s dark elves, with their flowing robes and polished armor, simply don’t fit Enroth’s more gritty, grounded aesthetic. In Olden Era, these dark elves should have a more rugged, natural look, with jagged, less ornamental armor that reflects the harsh, underground world they inhabit. This grittier approach would maintain the "lived-in" quality that HoMM3 was known for, creating a more cohesive and believable world, as opposed to the overly sleek, grandiose designs of Ashan which, in my opinion, feels disjointed.
Olden Era has a unique opportunity to carve out its own identity while staying true to the roots of Enroth. The game’s art and design choices should resonate with players who are deeply connected to the NWC universe. For example, and as others already mentioned, the Dungeon faction in HoMM3 had a specific, atmospheric design that perfectly suited its underground setting, filled with dangerous creatures and dark, ominous tones. In contrast, Ashan’s aesthetics often lean towards a more polished and grandiose feel, which doesn’t align with the earthy, muted designs of Enroth’s world.
Ultimately, Olden Era isn’t just a game about HoMM3 —it’s about revisiting the Enroth setting fans know and love. The game’s name is a clear reference to the world that defined HoMM3, and its art style should reflect that world, not Ashan’s. While it’s certainly possible to incorporate elements from Ashan, these should be reinterpreted through the lens of Enroth’s established identity rather than copied directly. This would allow Olden Era to remain a true continuation of the HoMM3 legacy, while still offering fresh ideas that feel right within the world of Enroth.
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LordInsane
Known Hero
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posted November 24, 2024 04:41 PM |
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MurlocAggroB said:
I would describe it as 67% Antagarich, 30% Ashan, 3% Jadame personally.
I think your argument is missing the forest for the trees. Again, I've been saying that it's not a faction based on MM8. The dark elves in MM8 aren't the Dungeon of Olden Era. An amalgamation of the Dungeon faction of HoMM is being used to represent the dark elves of MM8, if that makes sense.
You've motte-and-bailey'd yourself from "homage" to "pragmatic interpretation" to "not based on". Can you see why having a group "represented" by a town that has zero representation of them is bad representation and worthy of criticism when there were design alternatives? This isn't a case of a mapmaker substituting the closest fit.
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MurlocAggroB
Known Hero
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posted November 24, 2024 05:24 PM |
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I guess I just don't agree with you in any way at all, because HoMM3 looks like a cartoon to me. Like, it's got a more muted colour scheme than the other games, but it's miles from "gritty" or "realistic". I see loud, goofy, exaggerated designs for everything. I really don't think Olden Era looks significantly different to HoMM3, other than it's higher fidelity.
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