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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Heroes Basic Concepts and Wishes
Thread: Heroes Basic Concepts and Wishes This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT»
Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 22, 2003 01:16 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 22 Mar 2005

Heroes Basic Concepts and Wishes

Post your concise game wishes here.

Things to post in this thread is the main aspects of Heroes you find important and which will motivate you to buy and praise the game.

You can also specualte on what makes Heroes Heroes and not some other game.

I'll start by listing some of my own wishes.

RPG components
- Map makers should have flexible scripting options to make custim made maps. These scripting options should be on par with heroes 4 or better.
- A lot of adventure map objects, terrain sets, and so on to interact with.
- Overall deep Hero evolution and development.
- Advanced classes should be VERY hard to get, or should not exist.
- Heroes should be able to get Henchmen/Hirelings. Heroes can't talk to their artifacts, spells and so on.
- Random Maps and Ubisoft shipped maps do not need great RPG components, though Campaign should hold a bit of RPG-ing in it.
- Leave heroes fan community to develope good custom and campaign RPG maps, just provide good tools for achieving it.

Map features.
- Terrain should play a more important role in the game.
- Layers of varying sizes should be added. Full underground level should be removed, it could be implemented as a Layer.
- Some spells should be able to change terrain.
- Include a random map generator. It should produce different templated map types. Use fan community to find out what is popular and is working well. (This would mainly be based on H3 and WoG experiences.)

Graphics:
- Town graphics needs to be appealing and add flavour, as was the case in H2 & H3. (H4 failed to make good towns screens.)
- 2D graphics works fine for me.
- Graphics shouldn't be too childish or too realistic. Mainly it should be humourous and echo fantasy.

Strategy:
- The game should be turnbased. AoW2 has a nice set of options with classic turns, simultanneous turns, play-by-E-mail.
- Heroes strategy based on hero building, town developement, creature recruitment/training, and conquering the map.
- Keep the game simple. In my opinion H4 went over the top in some cases, where combat became very hard to follow and keep track of.
- Keep the game suitable for younger players. (Don't overuse violence and gory effects.)
- I like the battlefield representation in Hexes used in H3 a lot more than the squares representation in H4. (Big hexes gave player much more control to device tactics, just like you know exactly where a piece will end up in chess and who can capture the piece. Not so in H4.)
- If heroes are kept in battlefield, then all Heroes will need a mechanism to avoid them being taken out in round 1.
- Make sure you don't introduce features which you can't get the AI to use properly.
- Don't let Heroes flee or surrender and immediately return to town on same turn.
- Heroes which are captured when losing a battle should be held for ransom.
- A simple diplomacy system should be in place.
- Campaign strategy should be H2 style, with possibility of picking different paths and acquire different bonuses for tthe subsequent maps.

Creatures.
- I want to have a mixed systems. Only some creatures should have upgrades, only a few should have multiple upgrades. Some creatures should be exlusive in towns but not to the same degree as in Heroes 4.
- Use Leaders or similar system, if you want creature XP, but don't introduce a complex creature XP system.

Heroes
- Require 1 or more Hero per army.
- Use Linear or near linear XP growth instead of exponential XP growth to gain Hero levels.
- Heroes in the same class should in my opinion start out a bit differently, gain skills at least partly according to their biofile, and it is a mistake to offer the player the choice of any Hero of the class in the Tavern.
- Hero artifacts should probably be toned down a bit, making hero skills relatively more important.

Themes
- Themes should be used for all the town factions, so unit looks appropriate for the town they can be recruited in.
- Use skins to frame the map/combat map so player gets a feeling he's playing undead or a holy town. H2 had this.
- Themes can be applied to spells and skills, but use themes within reason. Not all spells a faction can cast need to belong to the faction's theme.
- Themes add flavour and flavour is good.

Spells
- Consider to add global spells affecting terrain, towns and so on. If you add global spells, then this is a farily large change since they would require upkeep, and this upkeep should likely be taken from somewhere. This added complexity need to be weighed against potential gain.
- Higher level spell casting ability should be harder to get than in Heroes 3, but easier than in Heroes.
- High level mage guilds should be difficult to build.

You're invited to continue/discuss the list. Objective of this thread is to have an open debate on what's the core of the game, and your concise wishes.

Top.

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Lich_King
Lich_King


Honorable
Supreme Hero
posted November 22, 2003 02:07 AM
Edited By: Lich_King on 7 Apr 2004

Ok, there are some thing I would like to see:

Heroes

- In combat, but less active, maybe heroes could fight heroes only...
- Advanced classes, more unique spells for magical advanced classes (like Demonologer).
- Hero graphic according to race and basic class.

Gameplay

- Turn based strategy game.
- Hotseat function.
- Random Map generator
- As Djive told more objects, potions.

Spells

- Spells for all magic types.
- At least one different school of Magic for each magic orentied town.

Creatures

- More creatures, more better, of course not all in towns, but many neutrals are allways perfect.
- Liches as undead spellcasters and shooters.
- Some old Homm3 creatures.

Towns

- Mixed buildings: Choosing, Upgrading or even doubule upgrading.
- 2D Town graphics, but terrain in town changes according to the terrain the town stands on.

Music

- Same opera, classical type music. (Rob King's production would be cool)

Editor

- More scripts affecting hero's skill choosing, and skill deleting.

Well.. That's it for now, I'll add more in the future...

Edit: TOP
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ElderiaN
ElderiaN


Hired Hero
posted November 22, 2003 11:22 AM

I agree with you both.

About the creatures:

I think that upgrades are cannot be bought. It can come with the grail structure. And I think that there are some creatures that don't need an upgrade (ex.: nightmares, hydras etc.)

For example, Death town's (Necropolis') grail, for example.: Haunted Haven, would provide an upgrade to Skeleton (Full Skeleton), Medusa (Medusa Matriarch), Minotaur (Bull Minotaur) and many more.

About the terrain:

I think that the terrain has to be more effective than ever before. For example, some of the terrain would give increase or decrease for creatures/heroes, spells would have bigger effect and other.
Of course, there could be a normal campaign editor, map editor in which you could generate random maps by selecting options yourself.

About the graphics:

More interacive graphics in town. By the way, h4 just messed up with it, even if graphics was the highest. H3 or h2 graphics were better. Also normal heroes' faces like in h2 and h3. Speaking of heroes', I would say that heroes should have their own specialties and skills selected from the group in the town, and more abilities.

Strategy:

Turn based like in AoW2, Disciples II and other HoMM. Other options, I would prefer Djive already said.

I think that's everything I wanted to say. Of course, there are a lot more things I want, but I don't want to bother you anymore...
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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted November 22, 2003 04:58 PM bonus applied.
Edited By: Gerdash on 23 Nov 2003

djive:
Quote:
You can also specualte on what makes Heroes Heroes and not some other game.

imho it's the special atmosphere.

1) imho graphics style is an important factor in sucess of any computer game. homm2 is a good example of same style applied globally. another well known example might be diablo1. using modern smooth shiny geometrically perfect computer graphics style for some objects and medieval painting style for others is an evil way of creating diversity (starting from homm3 and taken to extreme in homm4). it spoils the atmosphere by breaking the integrity.

btw if you have studied art, you probably know of the method where some paint of a particular color is mixed into every color used in the painting that is one way to create integrity.

i hope i don't need to explain more.

in medieval times people did not draw like people draw in modern times. it's most likely that most medieval artists just didn't know much about geometry and perspective, especially before renaissance. objects in drawings often had their own perspective each.

imho the style of paintings from about 1400 to 1450 ad would be most suitable in homm context. nice examples would be

1a) adventure map:
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/224B.html
what i mean by this map is that imho there should be some level of abstraction on the adventure map rather than trying to aim for a photorealistic aerial view. looks a lot like a homm map, doesn't it?
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/205K.html
imho it would be wonderful if homm5 adventure map would more or less reproduce this kind of style, except that i think that a castle is a good enough representation of a town.
so imho an ideal adventure map would be something in between those two examples. i agree with those who say that e.g. trees would be smaller than mountains, but imho there's no need to copy the real life proportions linearly.

1b) castles:
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1351-400/french/04f_1350.jpg
proportions compared to humans, inncorrect perspective, non-smooth color surfaces, relations of smooth surfaces to detailed parts.

1c) creatures:
imho all creature graphics should follow the same style as the rest of the game. creatures in one town type should imho make a subset of the general style, and creatures in another town type should make another subset. it's good if the creatures in the elven town (nature) are the subset of the general style that makes the creatures in a barbarian town look uncivilized and illiterate.

imho it's a good idea to ask: would a medieval artist have drawn a creature like that? looking at homm4 venom spawn makes me think that the artist could have been hanged for insulting people in medieval times.

also, there are fantasy pictures e.g. of a maiden chained to a cliff and a dragon. imho it's a good idea to ask: could any creature in homm5 replace the dragon?
e.g.:
* imho if you put a homm3 imp instead the dragon, the meaning would be different, but the picture would be ok.
* if you put a well-drawn knight there, the meaning would be different again, but picture would be ok.
* put a homm4 vampire there and i will say: this is not a fantasy picture based on medieval mythology anymore, it's a futuristic fantasy picture with a batman (bad in homm context imho).
* put a venom spawn there and i will scream: perverts!

if 1400..1450 a.d. european painting style is used (that i would suggest), then it's not bad if some creatures look reasonably retarded (especially the more exotic ones). e.g. someone has said that the behemoth looks ugly in a good way (saw it while looking for my posts on this subject) and i agree with it. to give an extreme example (maybe a bit too extreme):
http://monsters.monstrous.com/manticore.htm
true, it probably looks too funny (too much retarded) for the game, but i hope no one will say it doesn't have the medieval style.

a bit more reasonable manticore, but the style is probably way too modern (especially the background):
http://www.occultopedia.com/m/manticore.htm

i do think it's a nice idea to search some mythology sites and fine art galleries in the internet before drawing the final versions of concept art. in addition to the google image search (which is often a good desperate option) i have seen some pictures of some homm creatures in e.g.:
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/search.html
http://monsters.monstrous.com/index.htm

a somewhat surprising, but very typical medieval winged hydra:
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/p/pollaiol/antonio/hydra.jpg
a hydra with heads of a lion that is also somewhat typical:
http://koerwing.uhome.net/images/hydra2.jpg

just a nice picture of a battle with imho very much homm-like humans (100 year war):
http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/unknown/p-unknow37.htm

2) little rpg details add a lot to fantasy atmosphere like e.g. elves have pointy ears. sad story that in homm3 they forgot what gargoyle means. you see, in homm2 the gargoyle spits water, which is imho a similar kind of detail like the pointy ears of the elves. btw i have seen a movie where the notre dame gargoyles spit boiling water on the attackers, but even if the water wasn't boiling, i would like to see a hint to a water spout.

maybe it would be a good idea to include a few lines of overview of the mythological background of the creature in the game, maybe e.g. available by clicking a button in the monster details frame.

========
there are many different opinions about various creatures, e.g. if the vampire should be dracula or nosfeartu style. but i don't remember anyone saying that integrity in graphics style would be bad.

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Aca
Aca

Tavern Dweller
posted November 25, 2003 12:41 PM

What I hated most in Heroes IV(aside from poor AI, that is ) was the heroes themselves. After all, this game is named after them! Please make them more unique. The fans tend to identify with their knight or sorceress, but how can anybody even relate to this boring ugly… thing staring at them from the other side of the screen?

First of all, make heroes race-based (I hate to see humans in each town!). Each race should have certain advantages (attack, defense, speed etc).

Give us unique heroes. In Heroes III, each hero had a unique specialty. However, a large number were useless or I didn’t care for most of them. The WoG team introduced specialties like Builder and Darkness in addition to already existing ones (Hopefully, we’ll see some more in the upcoming 3.58 patch).

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted November 25, 2003 01:18 PM

And while you wait for this game, heroes 5, you might want to check out Age of Wonders Shadow Magic, the game Dijive talks about.

It has most of these things that you are talking about, and the World Online Nation (WON) has a tournament for it. Check it out at http://www.worldonlinenation.com/aow.

Might be something to do while we wait for H5

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Draco
Draco


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 25, 2003 04:59 PM
Edited By: Draco on 25 Nov 2003

note i recycled what i liked

Heroes

- more balancing needed
- Heroes should be limited to 1 per army
- Heroes should be less powerful at higher levels. ( a hero shouldnt be able to kill 25 black dragons alone)
- when you retreat from battle your hero goes into some sort of cowardise building (like the old tavern) where you need to pay 2500 gc to get him back (or even some sort of 2500 gc + 100 per level like the temples in M&M world of Xeen)

Gameplay

- Turn based strategy game.
- Hotseat function.
- Random Map generator
- some sort of queue system where between multiplayer turn you can choose what you want to do.//OR// simultanious multiplayer turns like CIVNET
- Smaller battlefield //OR// bigger units

Spells

-  keep H4 system for spells
-  include mixed spells (i.e. if you have master chaos and life you learn a new spell unique to those schools)

Creatures

- not neccesarily more creatures, better creatures though
- 3D customizable creatures (not customizable in battle but outside of game like counter-strike)

Towns

- Randomization in towns, i.e. Heroes 2 style
- Heroes 3 style terrain

Music

- Heroes 2 Opera


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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 30, 2003 05:30 PM
Edited By: Djive on 29 Dec 2003

Quote:

About the reasons for the success of the HoMM series, I'd like to return the question to you fans. What is it that attracs people, and what differentiate it from other strategy games ?


I'm opening up this topic for this type of comments also.

I'll begin by listing a few difference I've noticed between Heroes and other games.

- Stack sizes. (For good and for bad, the way it works in heroes I haven't seen in other games.)

- The role of the Heroes as commanders and figureheads for an army. (Though this was a bit tainted in Heroes 4, when creatures were allowed to walk the map themselves.)

- The 7 Resources (Think these have been there from the start also. These are not essential to the game, but are among the things Heroes player will recognize.)

- The need to conquer the map as quickly as possible, through combat. (Heroes is not an Empire Building game, it promotes conquest to sitting back and building up.)

- The presence of some of the named Heroes in the game. (Crag Hack, Sandro and some more.)

The things I like most about heroes is building diverse heroes and using them to take over the Map. Winning battles against high odds is always fun. Realism is good up to a certain point, but shouldn't be overdone. The game is a fantasy game and should IMO remain as such. (If I want to play a War Simulator I'll play another game.)

Top

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted December 05, 2003 05:41 PM

Quote:

About the reasons for the success of the HoMM series, I'd like to return the question to you fans. What is it that attracs people, and what differentiate it from other strategy games ?

i am no professional, my amateurish opinion is:

1) there's a lot of similarity with card games (solitaire) that people play for killing time (e.g. to take a break while thinking about some more constructive problems).

i personally don't play card games because they feel like card games, and i don't like the feeling (the level of abstraction is too great, what is left is just a bunch of numbered cards, some rules what to do with them, and victory condition).

so, in many cases, imho homm is a card game kind of a game (the way you play it) for me, except it doesn't feel like a card game the negative way.

the reason for saying this is that the decisions in homm are often quite simplistic and intuitive.

2) somewhat connected to the reasons for #1, like in many card games, the outcome (victory or defeat) depends on the decisions you make (imho the decisions are more often intuitive and based on experience rather than calculation).

i have sometimes loaded autosave after my defeat to see if i would have had a chance if i had made differnt decisions. a simple example i remember is that i could have won a major battle if i hadn't focused on my vamps but started with a few armageddons instead (and evaded with my few dragons).

3) a lot of the game is about logistics (where you go on the adventure map and in what order) and general attitude concerning agressiveness (something intuitive again imho, i don't usually try to calculate that).

for most part of the game, time is pressing and i feel i must get to some destinations as soon as possible without loosing all my army. imho this is where the tension mostly comes from.

there's usually the unknown factor that is the actions of the opponent and the unknown part of the map, so you cannot calculate with absolute certainty like in chess. so i usually try to estimate intuitively how large army i need to go exploring.

imho in all those three points there was no hard thinking involved.

4) in a multiplayer game there is just a little more at stake than defeating the ai, but imho the essencial part of gameplay remains the same. so i just try to weight the odds against each other a little more carefully.

5) like some people mentioned, the portraits of heroes and the way the creatures look is important. i feel that i don't want to hire a hero if i don't like his/her portrait. and i don't want to use a creature that i don't like, even if it's stats are good.

for example, in homm3 the hell hounds and cerbery had good stats, but imho they looked too stiff, so i didn't like to use them. in homm2 i don't know of any creature that i don't like to use for reasons other than their stats.

(back to the card game topic: in a card game i don't feel like differenciating between a 10 of diamonds and a 10 of spades that way (or king of diamonds and king of spades). i hope that could be an example of how homm doesn't feel like a card game in the negative way)

i am not saying that any player should like all heroes. i do like it if the hero protraits have some character. most people probably don't like my avatar too much.
but when i think that the position of his head is not straight just because he was animated from a large pile of corpses and that's also the reason why his eyes are bulging out of his head, then i think it's just the way it happened and has nothing to do with his personality.

in homm2 most hero portraits aren't good imho. the reptile eyes make me think that they want to look scary or something and imho they mostly look stupid for that reason.

6) what really distinguishes homm from other games is that the creatures aren't drawn with the "tough look" but have the old-fashioned look instead. this was the most important feature that got me hooked to the game years ago. just reciently some veteran pikemen offered to join in homm2 and i noticed again how old-fashioned they looked, especially during the mouse-over animation.

7) imho the homm world is an idealistic world where honor is the first priority. it's as if the humble creatures in the army and the heroes were following the example of honorable legendary heroes of old (mythological) times.

imho it would be nice if that kind of attitude was reflected in creature graphics, storyline and game rules of homm.

i sincerely hope that you have someone employed who knows medieval code of honor or at least can consult with that kind of people.

8) back to the gameplay topic, every turn you usually have some unfinished plan. not to risk forgetting some details of the situation, you feel like playing the next turn. the next turn you get new unfinished plans. this is imho one of the reasons why peolple play homm for many hours successively.

9) #8 might be a trouble sometimes, because it's sometimes more important to save and continue some other time. imho the save game vs sucessive game is well balanced in homm (probably just a lucky coincidence).

10 if you feel that you need to think and calculate, you can take the time to do it. this may look contradictory with some of the previous points, but really imho it isn't. i personally don't feel that i must calculate anything (rather than estimate) except building order vs days until the end of the week or number of imps vs number of pit lords when i convert them to demons.

11) it is possible to find a perfect solution in battle (no combat losses). actually there are often many solutions with no combat losses. so you can feel some satisfaction after that kind of a battle. depending on the situation, sometimes low enough combat losses or some other outcome may also make you think that you have done very well.

in real-time games you usually don't have the time to think about how nice you are, not even talking about that you could always have moved your mouse faster.

the countability of combat grid is also important for this kind of self-judgement (if you cannot count the grid, you often cannot be certain that the outcome was the best).

one of the most serious problems is the boredom of end game in the case when you have overwhelming forces. i have found this often more characteristic of homm than of any other game. i often quit before i have defeated the map in sigle player because of this, but it doesn't feel too nice.

12) back to the style again, the battle screen grid is a hex grid (until homm4) and that was a very good feature imho. there is no real reason to have a hex grid: it makes things more complicated for the programmer while with a more simple square grid the rules would just be a little different.

the reason that makes the hex grid important for the atmosphere is imho just the absence of this kind of pragmatical thinking. it makes the player feel that the game was made by some amateurish freeks who really made an effort to make a game to fit their ideals.

whether they really were amateurs or not, that's imho totally irrelevant. this particular freekish feature that creates the particular important part of the homm atmosphere is imho very cleverly included in a spot where it doesn't disturb gameplay in any way that i can think of.

========
i have probably forgotten some, and sorry for the lack of organisation in the order of points.

what i think is that homm has good qualities of some types of games while avoiding their pitfalls by good balancing (not overdoing with some features so that they will become disturbing).

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted December 05, 2003 06:17 PM

These opinions have similarities

What indeed?Why so many references to Heroes 2/3?If it is true that those who love Heroes are considered customers then I say the customer is always right.What is it that has attracted this particular set of fans to the Heroes of Might and Magic?I say identification with the characters on a turn-based strategy level.It seems part 4 was caught in the race to keep up with the growing technology in all of the current gaming industry.But they had forgotten something about the fans of Heroes 2/3.These people have patience mixed with elaborate creativity and fueled by limitless imagination.There is no other set of gaming fans with even half the amount of patience residing in a heroes 2/3 fan.Thus the game creator should have patience too.If you listen patiently you will hear how people love the artwork in Heroes 2/3 so much and at the same time have no complaints for the terrain of heroes 4.I suggest putting the two together.And ofcourse I personally feel that one can never have too many spells.The more spells the more wizardly it makes one feel.
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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted December 05, 2003 08:03 PM
Edited By: Gerdash on 5 Dec 2003

Quote:
people love the artwork in Heroes 2/3 so much and at the same time have no complaints for the terrain of heroes 4.I suggest putting the two together.

the trees might look differnt than homm4 trees imho.

as far as i have read the forum, people who have posted on this topic have liked the forest of previous homms instead of the separate trees lined up. also, i have seen a few complaints about the underground.

true, the main focus in the posts is usually not on terrain. however, i would suggest getting inspiration for the trees from medieval artworks.

like posted earlier in this thread, i would suggest trees something like
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/205K.html

or different type of trees, looks like pines (unforunately i didn't find the best pine forest picture i was looking for, where the curved brances and the trunks were drawn much sharper and the green part was more concentrated in the higher part of the tree. i guess the relation of plain trunks : branches : greenery was more like 4 : 1 : 1 there):
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/l/limbourg/12decemb.jpg

a miniature where trees are maybe a bit too abstract (miniatureish), but the integrity of the forest, mountain, building, etc. is great imho:
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/master/thomas/2garam.jpg

trees here might not be very suitable for homm, but the picture illustrates well the way barren land was drawn (plainly without the sharply cluttered texture that we see starting from homm3. it looks like stains with a small gradient could be enough for that type of terrain):
http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/m/master/xunk_it/xunk_it3/j_paris.jpg

========
btw i often liked homm4 battle screen landscape. and the preserve town screen was nice except the building that looked like the head of a wolf that made me suspicious.

i think it would be nice to recognize some medieval artwork style copied rather directly (like the pointy ears of the elves as a small roleplay detail), so i don't think there's any real need to be too much original.

well, maybe that's just me.
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what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything

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regnus_khan
regnus_khan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
posted December 09, 2003 03:26 PM

[b]main concepts and wishes[/b]

Graphics

-2d graphics for the battle map would be best.
-cool town screen (not as in HoMM4)
-not so small as in HoMM4
-better camera
-better looks of heroes (HoMM2 & 3 were good)

Map

-terrain should be more interactive. It could act all the skills.
-map editor come in the form as in HoMM3

Storyline

-new one. Maybe it could be after 30 years from HoMM4 end.
-more interesting (h4 original was quite good)

Creatures

-all creatures upgradable
-choose between two creatures
-better looks
-normal behemoth. Not an ape as in HoMM4. HoMM3 ancient behemoth was awesome. It would be fine for me.
-6 levels

Spells

-loads of them. They could affect the terrain or the terrain could affect them.
-capability of casting more spells in the adventure map.

Gameplay

-more hero types.
-one more resource or maybe one changed.

I think those are main to me. Other ones were said by Djive and Lich_King.

P.S. Lich_King, as lietuvis kaip ir tu.

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consis
consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted December 09, 2003 07:35 PM

Gerdash Should be involved in V's making

Gerdash you have an uncanny ability to say what I think.Although I'm not always able to transcribe what my mind comes up with it seems I can rely on you to champion the cause.Your insight should be considered for the making of Heroes V.I think with insight like yours and a company who cares about the project we'll start seeing more pictures like the one always attached to Vesuvius's threads.That picture is not unique.Many of my friends who have come to love heroes have done the same thing in an effort to express their enjoyment of the game.I couldn't agree more with your comments.Thanks for posting them.Let's continue to speak on behalf of the kind of Heroes game that people really want.
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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted December 10, 2003 12:59 AM
Edited By: Gerdash on 9 Dec 2003

could somethin like this be convincing?

(a short reply before the main topic)
consis:
thanks, but i have also had a lot of training while watching homm4 design irreversibly go in a direction that was a decline imho. must be two years since i started, huh (http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=2066).

imho as long as fabrice can manage the effort of reading such a huge amount of posts in the forums we are taking part of the development already. i guess we have a suggestive role rather than decisive (with responsibilities) and that's just normal imho. the result that 50% thinks that the anime style is not very suitable should imho already ring an alarm bell in ubisoft if they seriously planned for anime, because there are always a lot of people who say it's marvellous almost no matter what the game designer posts.

and actually i wouldn't expect it to take a too big effort to get some clue of gothic art. a few days of looking at the right kind of art should get one started, i guess. game graphics designers are probably accustomed to looking at art, it might not be too difficult. searching for inspiration for a single creature in a gallery or a mythology web site with medieval illustrations to get some idea doesn't take hours (usually takes a few minutes rather).

in homm4 they just seemed totally dogmatic that the best way to create diversity was mixing styles.

========
fabrice:
Quote:
But the case is that marketing and sales people are interesting in marketing and sales, of course, so they just count for numbers and decide whether they are interested or not. I think that the most difficult is to convince them to find something interesting in my point of view, so that it will be a success in retailing.


well, as for my own ideas, i guess i would have to express ideas something like:
1) it's perfectly normal for a teenager to be rebellious, bloodthirsty, etc. at some age. the idea is to make a game for a large part of the average teenagers. practice has shown that the homm medieval style has also appealed to a lot of adults.

edit: removed 1a
1b) rebellious:
'imagine' by john lennon is a popular piece of music.
'dreamer' by ozzy osbourne did practically the same and was popular again (i like 'imagine' more than 'dreamer' that imho isn't one of ozzy's best works, though).
this kind of idealism appeals to lots of rebellious people and is an evergreen principle that doesn't diminish with time.
in medieval art there's often a lot of such idealism expressed. the concept of virtues and code of honor is oten what medieval art is soaked through and through with, without getting too sweet (see 1a).
1c) medieval mythological world is a nice place/time to put the perfect honorable world into. putting the ideal world into mythological past is done in many religions (christianism and taoism come to mind at once) for ages with extreme sucess. it's also something about human nature like the previous points.
2) and then describe how to put it into practice, say that there are passionate artists who are able to get expressions on the face and in the whole body and animations (like seen on the concept art archer and chevalier face, although the expressions should imho be different than in the concept art), and there's possibility to consult with someone (or a few people) who knows medieval etiquette through and through (e.g. maybe not only a historian but also some dedicated larp player who has done some research?).

and then hope that the salesman cannot sleep at night, or at least that he dreams a rock'n'roll dream about loads of money and las vegas or something (especially if he has heard 'imagine' by john lennon).

1d) idealism (virtues and dignity) often gets people to flock to your banner more than anything, you know.

========

well, i cannot bet that the salesmen would buy this kind of speech, though.

but if i said something like:
'the homm players are a group of players with some very special interests.'
then i guess it would probably be a disaster, because i expect the sales people are more interested in expectations of guaranteed stability rather than making a game for a very small bunch of extremists.

the average salesman is probably accustomed to selling totally different kind of games. maybe it might be a better idea to explain how the sucess of homm is a part of normal human nature instead?

========
the other problem is, that if the developers are doing something that they are not very much familiar with, the cost of development will be multiple. but where are the developers that are so much familiar with creating such a game?

but if they don't really attract attention and don't inspire anyone, they will be in excrementarium anyway, especially in the longer perspective in the case if homm5 should not be sucessful.

i guess in the case of less sucess than expected the most disastrous might be people who don't understand what's really going on and say (generalize) that the homm5 developers 'don't have good hands for game development' or something like that.

========
disclaimer: i have no idea if computer game business really looks like that, it's just my fantasy, and i hope this post will be treated as such.
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consis
consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted December 10, 2003 01:57 AM

Completely Disagree with Gerdash

Disclaimer or not your opinion suggests a very dark side to the Heroes audience/fan.Maybe you have met someone discribed as you say.Maybe it was given from personal experience.I could not disagree more.On this particular subject I think the audience or gaming fan of heroes is the complete opposite.Here we have a game with art and settings that scream Tolkien.Just as his descriptions of the elves of middle earth we see too in Heroes the same serenity, tranquility, and peacefulness.That music of the Rampart in Heroes3 is called 'mood music'.You can find it at your local Target in a variety of song types.I think the majority of the heroes fans are not outsider teenagers relating to violence of a crusading type.I think the majority are storybook lovers enthralled by Tolkien type characters that long to visit the distant, far-off adventurous lands of Enroth.Just look at the creator of Heroes Community.It would seem to me the she might also be a person who dreams of visiting a place like Rivendell.I believe it is the fabric of this community and with that comes the understanding that sometimes evil people do evil things.When they do they no longer look human.Twisted and distorted by one's own feelings stirred in a bowl with what the eyes relay.If you are in that dark place or come from it I take this time to say, I have been there my friend.Don't let life's misadventures take away your childhood innocense.It's never too late to pick up and enjoy reading a book called: Where The Wild Things Are.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted December 10, 2003 02:25 AM
Edited By: Gerdash on 9 Dec 2003

so why do you think so many popular computer games would actually be really uncomfotable violence if it happened in real life?

imho it's just normal at some age. when i was younger, i considered myself a rather friendly person. i first noticed the fact only when i was considerably older and communicating with some younger people in a bar. and thought: 'huh, as far as i remember i must have been something lke that myself when i was younger.'

ok, yes i was a friendly person, but not in a pk-mud against the opponent race. and imho the young people wouldn't do many things they do if their attitude towards life wasn't agressive. i am not talking about teenagers like they are muderers or something, i am just talking about the average nice teenager next door.

ok, maybe 1a was a bad idea. violence isn't very popular thing to talk about.
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killa_bee
killa_bee


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
posted December 10, 2003 04:30 PM

i dont know if someone mentioned this already but i'm too sick to read all of the replies

please do not limit hero movement... allow chaining of creatures like heroes 2 and 3 had from hero to hero.  this is the main reason for the split of the heroes community when heroes 4 was released.  heroes 5 MUST bring the chaining tactic otherwise it will have almost no players.


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Draco
Draco


Promising
Famous Hero
posted December 10, 2003 06:18 PM

i dont think chaining was a good thing.. it was a way to cheat the system.. if chaining became legal again i would want the computer to be able to take advantage of it so the human wouldnt have a huge advantage. but not using chaining myself i would be at a huge dissadvantage.

leave it in the heroes 4 way/ (but do something about summoning skill because i hate getting 1 water elemental then 1 fire ect. (equilibrius mod was good for that)

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B0rsuk
B0rsuk


Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
posted December 11, 2003 12:21 AM
Edited By: B0rsuk on 10 Dec 2003

Heroes4 unpopular because of inability to chain ? Nonsense.

It's unpopular because of:
- ugly graphics (eyes simply HURT)
- many bugs, including former "drag&drop" townportal - unbelievable.
- finished in haste; it resulted in many bugs and poor balance.
- players had to wait ages for buggy, unplayable multiplayer
- poor campaing (ok, story is good but the campaign is very linear and replay value close to 0)
- no support
- poor interface. Try to remove a hero from santuary.... or select a hero and tell him to go into castle without entering castle screen instead (tip: do it slowly).

Chaining is silly. It's not even a tactic. There's nothing to learn about it's usage - it can be used when there's enough gold, that's all that needs to be known.
It doesn't even make sense - a turn is one day long, after all !So one creature stack should NEVER be able to travel so far in one day.

It's the same thing as strafe jumps in quake/halflife - an exploit. I think people like you playing Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory as medic KILL their patients... because kill + revive is sometimes faster than heal. Or kill themselves so they respawn elsewhere and travel faster than they're meant to.
Or replace enemies with hideous orange boxes so they can spot them ealier.
That's what I call sacrificing game spirit for efficiency.

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted December 11, 2003 06:06 PM

Quote:
heroes 5 MUST bring the chaining tactic otherwise it will have almost no players.
Quote:
Chaining is silly. It's not even a tactic.
there may be some truth in both statements.

on one hand the slow movenemt of troops on a large map may be too much of a test of patience for some people.

on the other hand chaining is indeed stupid-looking tactics.

we might have a major conceptual gameplay problem here.
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