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| Thread: Heroes of Math & Logic |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 12, 2001 12:38 PM |
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Heroes of Math & Logic
Hi all!
I hope there ain't a thread concerning this topic already.
Well, we all know the HOMM isn't a real-life simulation, but aren't there some things in the game which are a bit... too unrealistic.
Examples:
-Hero with fast units at beginning of turn doesn't slow down even when he gets ulra-slow units during turn
-a Lizardman Hero (race) with Dragon Flies is faster on the map than a Genie Hero with Gargoyles
-An army consisting of Archangels and Archdevils only has moral +1 (without further modifiers), although they aren't really the best friends
Don't get me wrong, this thread isn't meant as a proposal for modifications of the game.. just want to hear some comments about it: other unlogic things, funny explanations, etc.
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 12, 2001 12:59 PM |
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Do you think that a HORSE in a chess game should say "IHAAAHAHAHAA" and run like hell, instead of
that it makes some strange movement looking like
'L'. Have you seen real horse doin' like that?
even drunk? i wonder 
So chess is unreal, but is from thousands years
ago. Imagine chess real - you have to feed your
horse, train your pawns, remove the grass from
all cells and paint them black&white. And then
king and queen.
Let's keep heroes unreal and enjoy the things
which we can't do in real life. By this way we'll
have time to enjoy the game, and after it enjoy
the real life.
hmm... where's my gran turismo 3
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted July 12, 2001 02:33 PM |
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Chess unreal?
Hey! A couple of bizarre details like that AAngel & ADevil army don't make Heroes or Chess unreal! Unreal is an FPP game, whilst both Heroes and Chess are strategy.
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Yolk and God bless.
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My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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sikmar
Promising
Known Hero
The Moonchild
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posted July 12, 2001 02:39 PM |
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About the old unrealism discussion
that has been resurrected so many times, I've always felt it was a little senseless. We are talking about animating dead and teleporting troops, and it's OK cause the game is called Heroes of Might and MAGIC. I don't want realism. I have a huge quantity of it every day. What I want is a fantastic universe full of amazing and weird creatures, heroes, events... and fantastic kingdoms conspirating against each other to fulfill their secret ambitions by any means.
But let's joke a little bit. Here you have some ironic situations that should occur in a ultra-realistic HOMM:
- Your cash amount has been drastically decimated. Now you understand why the tavern dwellers said your main hero was a "gold specialist". Where the hell has gone that damned thief???
- You suffer another bitter defeat in the hands of a quite inferior enemy army. Your general hasn't appropiate answers to this ignominious disgrace, but you know the truth. You should forbid those beer-drinking competitions, at least while your drunken troops are on the war front.
- Your soldiers have sent a negotiation committee to talk about their summer vacations and salary improvements. Don't they know we are AT WAR???
- "Yes, I know you ordered to build a capitol", says your personal advisor, "but what do you expect from Lazyman the Architect? He refuses to got up before 10:00 and he is the only architect of the kingdom. Maybe next month you'll have the capitol built. MAYBE".
And a lot more could be added without effort...
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 12, 2001 07:46 PM |
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Quote:
Hey! A couple of bizarre details like that AAngel & ADevil army don't make Heroes or Chess unreal! Unreal is an FPP game, whilst both Heroes and Chess are strategy.
Could you tell me how much bizzare details there have to be to make one game unreal? Is it really that bizzare details are making one game unreal? Real games are called simulations. Sports games are bit of example for real games. There are no devils (except New Jersey Devils). Heroes is highly unreal game - and there is no need to make it real.
Heroes and chess may be strategies, but they are not simulations - there are of course real strategy simulations (probably) - like this game Real War (they are saying that army was using it for training - which I can't believe - but anyway). Probably as you say and MONOPOLY is for real, right? And then "JONES IN THE FAST LANE" is real (a very good sierra-on-line game)? I think you should start making difference. Of course I'm saying this, thinking that you are not joking, otherwise you are right - yes Heroes is a real game!!!
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dark_hunter7
Known Hero
Order, mages, lords, the RULE
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posted July 13, 2001 12:00 AM |
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HAIL MALKIA! U SAID IT MAN!
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I'm back.... yessssss
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 13, 2001 09:31 AM |
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the right spirit
Just for clarification (does this word exist? )... I don't want HOMM to be realistic - just think of the fact that it's a round based game (quite far from reality) and I would hate to see this changed!
sikmar got the right spirit... do some trash-talk!  (after all, we're in a tavern here )
create / discuss unrealistic situation or find funny explanations for seemingly unlogic things in the game.
This was meant to be a fun thread!
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 13, 2001 09:35 AM |
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interesting??
Hey... this thread was rated "interesting".. I wonder whether this will bring me a quality star (just kidding)
btw (maybe @DarkHunter), haile has nothing to do with Hail, it's the first name of my favourite runner
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 13, 2001 11:20 AM |
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I was thinking pure ASCII text can lead to humor without symbols like '' and ' ' but most of the time it's impossible. I'm talkin' about prosody here (without being specialist - just heard of it) - because the fact that you are only typing this text to us without intended intonation with which you wrote it - then we can't get the humor right out of it. And having in mind that lots of people here are not english speakers (like me for example) and have different cultural and social understandings - then it's hard to say this was intended to be humorous.
At least if we were able to change the font of the text depicting our current emotions then it'll be ok - but on the other side public must understand this type of emotions - blah blah blah... Which makes me think that first laughs that ancient people made - probably did some other emotions or even fear - rather than joy.
I'm sorry, that it was not fun - put at least some ' : ) ' - otherwise - we can't get it
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*prosody - the rhythmic and intonational aspect of language
- as what www.webster.com gives as description.
and here is example of PROSODIC FONT
http://www.media.mit.edu/~tara/prosodicFont.html
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 13, 2001 11:43 AM |
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It is important to udnerstand the difference between "unreal" and "illogical". Unreal is fantasy! So obviously we don't want to make the game real.
What we want is to make it logical. This means consistent with what we know...or what we think makes sense. Does it make sense for a dragon to be in a fantasy game? Yes it does. Does it make sense for an elf to use a longbow since many of us have always pictured elves with a bow? Sure. Does it make sense for a hero to have the same movement in one turn even though that hero started with fast creatures and switched to slow? Umm...no that isn't particuarly logical.
You may say you don't care or you like it the way it is. But don't mix up logic and reality. They are not the same.
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 13, 2001 12:18 PM |
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Malkia, I get your point... maybe I should have added more Smilies. I'm no native speaker too( I guess every native speaker recognizes this at first glance ) and everything which improves understanding should be used.
But you have to admit that the Message Icon of my first post was a  ...
pluvious, that's a good point.. let's assume the M&M universe as given and concentrate on logic within this universe.
So how about this one: A Hero (no spellbook) on a XXL map attacks a stack of creatures in the upper left corner of the map, retreats and -shwoop- can be rehired in a tavern in the bottom right.. and do some shopping there... how can this work?
Beam technology borrowed from an ancestor of Gene Roddenberry ? ... or an anonymous magic hero who got Teleport on hyper-expert level, which allows him to Teleport other heros across the Strategic Map... ?
other speculations?
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 13, 2001 01:27 PM |
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The thing i hate quite abit is how theres week of the hedgehogs and stupid things like that. I mean have you ever seen one in the game i heard they are real tough to kill!
What other week of the ______ are there i know theres quite a lot like hedgehog just cant remember them.
Hmm or maybe im looking at hedgehog all wrong maybe its more like this:
Any of several small insectivorous mammals of the family Erinaceidae of Europe, Africa, and Asia, having the back covered with dense erectile spines and characteristically rolling into a ball for protection.
Any of several spiny animals, such as the porcupine, that are similar to the hedgehog.
A well fortified military position.
An antisubmarine weapon consisting of several rows of mortar-like dischargers positioned to fire in a circular pattern ahead of a ship.
An obstacle used against tanks and landing craft, consisting of three crossed iron bars welded or bolted together.
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted July 19, 2001 03:08 PM |
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Calm down, Malkia!!!
What I ment was a joke! Heroes and Chess are not realistic, but they aren't unreal! That's because Unreal is a FPP game! Are Heroes and Chess FPP? I don't think so!
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Yolk and God bless.
---
My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 23, 2001 09:51 AM |
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genders
studying the manual, I found three facts which I'd like to post in this thread, too
-Sorsha is female
-Kyrre is female
-Jenova is male!
Dear Programmers of 3DO, I appreciate the fact that you invested so much time in making a brilliant game. But shouldn't you sometimes go out into the real world?
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 11, 2001 02:06 PM |
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LOL... my, it is long ago since I started this stupid thread
I wonder if anybody has something new to contribute - or if it will fall down a second time
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Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
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posted December 11, 2001 04:30 PM |
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I have always thought the most illogical thing in heroes was that by "chaining" heroes you could move an army all across the map, even though it would take a single hero riding Pheonix(sp) maybe 6 days to make the trip himself.
You can take a town at the end of the week and the next day all those "enemies" who were who knows where, are willing to join your army.
Maybe I will think of some others later
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If you learn so much by losing, why am I so dumb?
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dragonsister
Hero of Order
MapHaven administrator
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posted December 12, 2001 04:19 AM |
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Plenty of illogical things in Heroes. One green dragon can kill one thousand imps in one day - if they are split amongst several fights! And it doesn't matter that each fight reduces the green dragon's health from full to near zero ... (though adding a first aid tent to the equation makes the fights much easier :-) ) (170 imps is about the limit for the unaided dragon in a single fight. And that's good tactics and lucky terrain and stack splitting.)
That 'instant health restoration' is a game simplification. (And one which may not be present in H4?) So's the 'killing the top creature on the stack' approach. So's the whole turn-based approach, come to that - reality is realtime - but any game which does realtime battles *and* realtime building construction and army generation is *probably* very unrealistic. (Possible exceptions include Master of Orion 3 - which I haven't played.)
Many of the strategies I have exploited rely on the game simplifications in one way or another! :-)
DragonSister
http://heroes.mycomport.com/
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skao_low
Hired Hero
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posted December 12, 2001 04:47 AM |
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"haile has nothing to do with Hail, it's the first name of my favourite runner "
Thats funny, because your avatar always made me think of a runner from the 80's!
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haile73
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 12, 2001 09:44 AM |
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Quote:
Thats funny, because your avatar always made me think of a runner from the 80's!
Hehe.. no, it is a photo from Haile Gebrselassie, who won the 2000 Olympic 10km race and came in 3rd in this year's World Championships. Born in '73 btw, like me
Yes, the instant health generation... merely escaped Death in a dwarfen treasury, only to kick some imps a few seconds later with full health, lol. I would explain this with some first aid done immediately after a battle. Anyway, Erathia must have some real good doctors, lol.
Anyone else?
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Batvanio
Adventuring Hero
Archimage
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posted December 12, 2001 10:38 AM |
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xx%#
Ok here is a reply.
I don't think of the logic or reality when i play strategic games.
You think logic is something obvious, but nah.. what may be obvious and logical to you, maybe illogical to me.
So no, I don't find strange retreating and appearing on the other corner of the map.
I don't find anything illogical, or as you call it "unreal" in all the situations that had been discussed.
It is just the RULES!
The rules are what makes me like strategic, and Heroes in particular.
The rules are constraining, and this is the beauty of it. Because now you can start OPTIMIZING. That is using the rules in the best possible way(and the essence of the game).
Trying to change a rule (because you find it illogical), is messing up with the game itself and changing its essence. Thus creating a tottaly different game. In RL you don't have such freezed rules, but here changing a rule means everything.
If you really want to find logic, use your imagination and explain these situations in your own logical way.
Bat wi vanio
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...and give my best regards to your family
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