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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Poll: Cuba Libre
Thread: Poll: Cuba Libre This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted February 10, 2004 08:37 PM

Poll Question:
Poll: Cuba Libre

Should the US drop the trade sanctions on Cuba?
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

Responses:
Immediately. The Cubans have been suffering the American imperialism for too long.
Not sure. But yes probably, because they give no positive results.
No. Not until those dangerous Communists are in power.
Who cares? Boring thread.
 View Results!

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted February 10, 2004 08:41 PM
Edited By: Svarog on 10 Feb 2004

I forgot to mention. An interesting message appears if you give your vote.

I voted A: Immediately. The Cuban people have been suffering the American imperialism for too long.

The Cuban economy suffers badly from the sanctions. Since the collapse of USSR, because of the loss of a major trading partner, Cuba’s GDP dropped for 35%, lost 70 billion$ in trade and 1.2 billion$ in international loans, because of the US sanctions. What’s even worse Cuban health system faces problems since drugs are hard to come by because of the sanctions. USA refuses to buy goods with even most minor Cuban components and it’s a big and important would-be market for the Cuban economy. Americans will be able to stop pretending that they prefer Bolivian cigars.
Why do they keep the sanctions anyway? Castro’s still in power in spite of the 40 years of sanctions (and thanks god for that), Cuba has no WMD whatsoever, doesn’t sponsor terrorism. The whole world (excluding USA and Israel) is against the sanctions, and international law finds maintaining sanctions for change in government totally illegitimate. And last, Cuba is a sovereign country and has the right to maintain a system of government without outside interference.

The Revolution in 1959 ended Batista’s oppressive regime, supported by the Americans because it provided for American companies to have absolute dominance in Cuba and suck on the poor Cuban people. La Revolucion brought free health and education system for all, leveled the income disparity and banned foreign companies out of Cuba forever. For the first time in history of Cuba, the government worked for the benefit of the people and made them happy. American imperialism, because of political interests, tries to destroy their economy and install a pro-American government, as it has all over the world.

Cuba Libre!

____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted February 10, 2004 08:48 PM

Since i´ve been married with a cuban girl, i´ve learned much about the problems the citizens in cuba have.
I have to say, Cuba is a great country, very nice and always friendly people, allways good weather , music, wonderful girls and so on.....

So i voted for immediately

PS. When i first read your signature, it came in my mind that you are a cuban, ´cause this words are so typically for Cuba
Are you cuban?

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Lord_Woock
Lord_Woock


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
posted February 10, 2004 08:50 PM

Cuban hiphop is the best I've heard Orishas rock!
____________
Yolk and God bless.
---
My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!

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regnus_khan
regnus_khan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
posted February 10, 2004 08:53 PM

Immediately. Dunno why, but still. I think every country should be free. Even mine with that silly president lowering this my homeplace


P.S.Angelito, you were born in Cuba?
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted February 10, 2004 08:59 PM

Quote:
P.S.Angelito, you were born in Cuba?


No, i´m german.
My wife is cuban...
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted February 10, 2004 09:01 PM

Nope, I'm not Cuban. And my wife isn't Cuban, but she will be. But I love Cuba for the same reasons you mentioned.
It's my most beloved country.
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted February 10, 2004 09:09 PM

Ok, I see
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Wolfman
Wolfman


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
posted February 11, 2004 12:24 AM

I noticed you didn't provide a choice to the opposing point of view...
____________

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted February 11, 2004 12:45 AM
Edited By: Consis on 11 Feb 2004

Let's Try To Be More Open To Realistic Ideas

The following article should shed some realistic light to your unrealistic questionaire Svarog:
Quote:
U.S. sanctions on Cuba under growing attack  

By Juan O. Tamayo, Herald Staff Writer
Published Monday, December 28, 1998, in the Miami Herald

Congressional conservatives and liberals favor it. So do leading American newspapers, a growing number of business people, academics and intellectuals, and Pope John Paul II.

Even Henry Kissinger, the closest thing America has to a foreign-policy deity, favors it -- a top-to-bottom reassessment of U.S. sanctions on Cuba, including the trade and travel embargoes.

Forty years after President Fidel Castro seized power, U.S. sanctions designed to impel his communist regime toward change are under one of the strongest assaults ever marshaled by foreign-policy and public-opinion leaders.

Labels such as ``obsolete, ``counterproductive and ``bankrupt have come to dominate the public debate, while defenders of the sanctions appear to be dwindling and increasingly resigned to some adjustments in policy.

Some analysts are predicting a nibbling around the edges of U.S. policy, perhaps an easing of restrictions on travel, and on sales of food and medicine. A few see a long-shot possibility that the 37-year-old embargo will be lifted.

``When something so dry and brittle is hit by a sudden puff of fresh air, it's quite possible there could be substantial changes, said Luigi Einaudi, former U.S. ambassador to the Organization of American States.

Yet skeptics predict that nothing significant will happen, and not only because of U.S. political and legal hurdles. Castro, they say, has a history of torpedoing U.S. attempts to improve relations, thereby keeping Washington as a menace and justifying domestic repression.

Kissinger's own effort at rapprochement with Havana ended when Cuba sent troops to Angola in 1975. President Carter's efforts ended with the Mariel crisis in 1980. And Clinton's turned sour when Cuban MiGs shot down two Brothers to the Rescue planes over the Florida Straits in 1996.

``The principal obstacle to improved U.S. policies toward Cuba is not the Cuban-American lobby or its supporters in Congress, but Castro himself, said Richard Nuccio, former Clinton White House advisor on Cuba.

``If you think, like I do, that the Cuban government actually prefers that the embargo stay in place, at least under certain conditions, then it may be that the Cuban government will do something that will have the consequence of polarizing the issue in the United States, Nuccio added.

Turning a Godfather movie phrase on its head, Nuccio added: ``There is no offer we can make that they can't refuse.

A case for change

Few supporters of easing sanctions share Nuccio's concern. Instead, they argue that it's time for change because Castro stopped being a threat to U.S. security when the Cold War ended, and because decades of sanctions have failed to nudge him toward reforms.

``Nothing approaching full democracy will take place until Castro leaves the scene, but at least we can encourage the right conditions for positive change, said Wayne Smith, once the top U.S. diplomat in Havana and now a determined critic of U.S. sanctions.

Supporters of the embargo insist it's working. ``The best evidence of that is the vast amount of work that Cuba has put into lobbying for its removal, especially after the Soviet Union's collapse,'' said Cuban-born Otto Reich, former U.S. ambassador to Venezuela and a strong critic of the Castro government.

March of events

But several developments in recent months show the increasingly vocal opposition to the U.S. sanctions against Cuba:

Kissinger headed a group of about 20 senators and other foreign-policy mavens who proposed that Clinton appoint a bipartisan panel to review U.S. policy on Cuba. Supporters and critics alike say ``review is a euphemism for change.
The Council on Foreign Relations, a nonpartisan research and policy organization, named a 22-member task force in October to reassess U.S. relations with Havana. Its report is expected in mid-January. Among the panel members: former Assistant Secretaries of State Bernard Aronson and William D. Rogers, and one Cuban American, New York investment lawyer Mario Baeza.
U.S. lawmakers proposed bills this year in the House and Senate to ease restrictions on sales of food and medicine to Cuba. The bills did not pass, but they are expected to be resubmitted when Congress convenes in January.
Two respected foreign-policy think tanks, the Atlantic Council and the Center for Strategic and International Studies, published reports critical of U.S. policies on Cuba in August and September.
Americans for Humanitarian Trade With Cuba, a coalition of business people, former U.S. officials and church leaders, was organized under the auspices of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce to push for lifting regulations on the sale of food and medicine to Cuba. It includes conservatives like former Bush administration trade representative Carla Hills and former Federal Reserve Board Chairman Paul Volcker.
The New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times and many other leading U.S. newspapers have published editorials calling for an end or a significant softening of the U.S. embargo.
USA Engage, made up of 650 U.S. corporations, was formed last year to lobby against Washington's growing use of economic sanctions against other countries -- not just Cuba but also Libya, Iraq, Iran and Myanmar (the former Burma).
Pope John Paul II and several American cardinals have harshly criticized the embargo, arguing that it hurts the Cuban people more than the Cuban government.
The European Union, Canada and many Latin American and Caribbean governments called for an end to the embargo and its replacement with policies of ``engagement that might slowly nudge Cuba toward change.
Turnaround on embargo

Such an onslaught on the embargo would have been almost unthinkable only 33 months ago, when Congress passed the Helms-Burton Act in an enraged response to the downing of the Brothers to the Rescue planes by the Cuban air force.

Until then, the Clinton administration had been trying to follow a two-track policy of sanctions linked to possible Cuban reforms and support for people-to-people contacts that might promote change on the island.

In a 1995 nod to rising U.S. anti-immigration sentiment, Clinton adopted a change in policy long sought by Cuba -- returning most Cuban rafters to the island instead of welcoming all as victims of communist oppression.

The Helms-Burton Act remains a potential obstacle to easing U.S. policies on Cuba because, aside from threatening some foreign firms that invest in Cuba, it wrote into law all the sanctions that had previously been enforced by executive decrees or regulations.

White House legal experts have concluded, however, that Helms-Burton would not prevent Clinton from significantly altering those regulations, Nuccio said. Congressional hard-liners will undoubtedly disagree if he ever tries it.

Other obstacles

But there are bigger stumbling blocks to policy changes on Cuba.

Key White House officials pushing for the Kissinger proposal are doing so only quietly and not very forcefully, and not just because the Monica Lewinsky scandal has sapped Clinton's strength, Washington sources said.

``This is not a bold president, Wayne Smith said.

And while the ease-the-sanctions advocates are dominating the public side of the debate, the hard facts are stacked against them.

``The politics are just not there, said one top Clinton administration official who handles Cuba issues.

Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, a Miami Republican, has taken to referring to the Kissinger proposal as ``the Gore Commission in a clear shot across the bow of Vice President Al Gore and his presidential ambitions in 2000.

Florida vote in mind

Florida, governed by Republican Jeb Bush, will play a key role in that election, and not many candidates are considered likely to risk angering the state's Cuban-American vote.

The political strength of the Cuban American National Foundation has been undermined somewhat by the death of founder Jorge Mas Canosa and its ensuing rift with Ros-Lehtinen and two other Cuban Americans in Congress, several Washington political observers said.

But its remaining strength could well be enough to block any significant easing of U.S. sanctions on Cuba, especially given the many other hurdles in its path.

A Florida International University poll last year showed that about 72 percent of Cuban Americans in Miami still supported the embargo. A CNN poll earlier this year showed that 48 percent of all Americans favored the embargo and 45 percent opposed it.

So there is little political capital to be gained by going against it.

``Cuba has always been a `third rail' of U.S. policy. Touch it and you die, said Nuccio, now writing a book on Cuba-U.S. relations.

Diplomatic leverage

Supporters of tight sanctions say they should be kept as chips for bargaining with Cuba. Lifting them unilaterally, they add, would only legitimize and strengthen Castro, and they argue that the policy of engagement backed by Canada and other nations has failed as badly as the U.S. embargo when it comes to persuading Castro to modify his repressive policies.

U.S. sanctions made Cuba an expensive outpost of the Soviet empire and helped drive Moscow into collapse, said Frank Calzon, Cuban-born director of the Washington-based Center for a Free Cuba.

``I am not opposed to lifting the embargo, but it should be the end goal of a process of significant Cuban steps toward democracy, not the beginning, Calzon said.

And although any number of foreign-policy experts can agree that the embargo has achieved little in terms of nudging Castro toward reforms, few see any promising alternatives.

Clinton's policy, ``while hardly the mode of clarity either advocates or detractors would wish, nonetheless is a serviceable approach, said Cuba historian and Rutgers University Professor Irving Louis Horowitz.

It is a dilemma with no end in sight.

``The dynamics between us and Cuba is becoming embarrassing because it looks dated, it looks sterile, and yet no one can find a way around it, Einaudi said. ``We have paralysis of policy on both sides.

Copyright © 1998 The Miami Herald


Here is my own personal opinion on the matter. As a citizen of the United States of America my vote is in favor of lifting sanctions on Cuba. I donot approve of Fidel Castro's history, nor do I approve of economic sanctions on a cold-war relic. I think it's time to move on peacefully. I think the Nobel Peace Prize winner, and ex-president Jimmy Carter, should lead the committee that will head the process by which America is to lift its economic sanctions on Cuba.

As for you describing my country as being "imperialistic": I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that.
____________
Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted February 11, 2004 02:25 PM

Consis, I read that article and I can’t see how is that more realistic then the question we are already talking about. That is whether the US should drop the sanctions, not whether they would, which is what this article is talking about (why the sanctions still exist). It gives some reasons connected to “daily policy” in USA (votes, elections) and not a single one connected with Cuba directly. Except for the one which says Castro himself doesn’t want the sanctions to be dropped, which I find absurd.
Anyway, thanks for that piece of evidence. It assured me even more that there’s no real reason why the sanctions still exist.

“As for you describing my country as being "imperialistic": I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that.”
Please, don’t feel offended for that. I didn’t mean to offend you or your country. However, I still think (and I hardly gonna change my mind) that American policy is imperialistic. One reason for that is this very thread, and further more the American policy to Latin America now, and especially in the past.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

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doomnezeu
doomnezeu


Supreme Hero
Miaumiaumiau
posted February 11, 2004 04:35 PM

For the sake of Che Guevara I vote imediatelly.
____________

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privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted February 11, 2004 08:01 PM

Immediately, they might not like Castro, but that's no reason to permanently make his people pay for his regime.

Interestingly, some Americans I have spoken to of Cuban descent seem to think Castro=Satan. They're usually the most vocal of the "castro killed kennedy" supporters as well.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted February 12, 2004 04:18 AM

Sure, why not?  

We do business with just about every other godless, commie heathen nation out there.

Hell, we're even doing business with the one country that kicked our butts...Vietnam.

Viva Libre de Cuba!!!

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted February 12, 2004 10:53 PM

I apologize about Consis.  Flat-footed flyboys spend most of their time living in comfort and dodging responsibility.  Thus, they don't have time to read our history of relations with Latin America.

Ever hear of 'La Frutera' Consis?

We've been completely imperialistic in the past and quite arguably in the present.  And you are giving the Euros too much ammunition to use against us with your ignorance.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted February 12, 2004 11:52 PM

Sorry, but i have to disagree with most of the facts consis pointed out.

First of all, i presume that you (consis) don´t live in Cuba as well. I´m in Cuba several times in the year, so my point of view (as a foreigner in cuba) should be a little bit more realistic.

Your way of thinking is totally wrong, if you believe, the situation will be better when Fidel Castro is dead.

The opposit will be true!

The two persons, who will overtake his might one day in Cuba are more radical than Fidel is!

Most of older people in Cuba are staying loyal to Fidel, because they are satisfied with their life......they don´t know it better.
Only the younger ones who learn much about the other parts of the world, disagree mostly with him.
But America doesn´t help them with that embargo.
And America will not relax the rules, when Fidel is dead....believe me.

And the other fact about the social reform isn´t true either!
Because of loosing the greatest trading partner (russia), they reformed many things. Since that time, it is allowed for all people, to sell (food, handmade goodies) and buy in common marketplaces, without giving the avails back to the government.
Next changing is his meaning about the church, since the pope visited Cuba some years ago, and there are some more...

So please don´t talk about things, you might not know most of the details.

In my eyes, finish the embargo is the only way to help those nice and polite people getting a better and satisfying life.

Don´t get me wrong, i don´t like Fidel Castro anyway, but that doesn´t give me the right to "punish" the people....

That´s my opinion by heart, so please don´t feel insulted.

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted February 13, 2004 12:06 AM
Edited By: Consis on 12 Feb 2004

I Am Only Man With Only One Vote

Svarog, Angelito, The_Gootch, distinguished guests, the world has spoken. Let the vote of the United Nations be the determining factor to the restoration of Cuba's international freedom.

Ok this article clearly shows most of the world behind lifting sanctions off Cuba. Three countries opposed lifting the sanctions. I happen to be a citizen of one of the three. I have stated, personally, that I would vote in favor of it, and whether this sort of thing is decided by likes of us we may never know.As an American citizen I have the power to help bring about a change in this matter. It's my vote that matters to this subject, not yours Svarog. I have shown you what my vote will be.

If The_Gootch wants to drag La Frutera into this then so be it. Eisenhower...what can I say but McCarthy-ism. There are you happy The_Gootch? Gimme a break with that La Frutera junk. That scandal is as old as dirt. Talk about "beating a dead horse", jeez.
Quote:
November 05, 2003

179 countries vote against the blockade of Cuba in the UN. Only three votes against the resolution presented by the island: the United States, Israel and the Marshall Islands UNITED NATIONS (PL).˜
The UN General Assembly voted by an overwhelming majority this November 4 to end the economic, commercial and financial blockade imposed on Cuba by the United States.

A resolution adopted here in that respect obtained the record total of 179 votes in favor, just the United States, Israel and the Marshall Islands against, and only two abstentions.

The vote recalls declarations made by the heads of state and government at Ibero-American Summits in relation to the need to eliminate the unilateral application of measures of an economic and commercial nature affecting the unfettered development of international trade.

It also expresses concern at the continued promulgation and application of laws and regulations such as the U.S. Helm-Burton Act that affect the sovereignty of other states, the legitimate interests of entities and persons under their jurisdiction, and freedom of trade and navigation.

In consequence it reiterates its exhortation on all states to abstain from undertaking actions of this kind, and urges the most rapid repeal or annulment possible of those in existence.

The UN secretary general is asked to prepare a report on the present resolution "in the light of the aims and principles of the organization's Charter and international law for presentation to the General Assembly in its next period of sessions." In that way the issue remains on the program of debates for next year as a question of constant interest.

EXPRESS SUPPORT FOR THE CUBAN RESOLUTION Cuba received the express support of important groups of countries for its demand for an end to the blockade. When the General Assembly session on the issue was opened, the Mexican representative was the first to speak in favor of the anti-blockade resolution.

In succession so did Morocco, on behalf of the Group of 77 plus China; Jamaica, for the Caribbean Community (CARICOM); and Malaysia, which presides over the Non-Aligned Movement.

Each of them firmly expressed their opposition to the prolonged policy of harassment in violation of the UN Charter, international law and freedom of trade and navigation.

Viet Nam referred to interference in the sovereignty of states and the non-justification of a blockade that has been unable to force Cubans to give up their efforts to construct a more just society.

After Foreign Minister Felipe Pérez Roque`s speech, received with an ovation, representatives from other countries added their words of support to the resolution presented by Cuba.

The first to do so was the Namibian representative, who maintained that the application of that policy of hostility constitutes an obstacle to the millennium development goals.

South Africa lamented that the issue had to be discussed yet again, despite reiterated calls from the international community to the United States and stated that it was no surprise that the overwhelming majority continues to support the resolution under debate.

For his part the Tanzanian speaker spoke of the violations to freedom of trade and how this has worsened with the Torricelli and Helms-Burton Acts, which have caused fresh damage to the Cuban economy and that of third countries.

Venezuela shared the general condemnation of the U.S. measures, which constitute a flagrant violation of Cubans' human rights. It called on the General Assembly to adopt measures to repeal legislation such as the Torricelli and Helms-Burton Acts.

Sudan reiterated the right of nations to their self-determination and urged a rejection of any attempt to impose unilateral decisions against states.

Iran called on the international community to demand an end to the blockade and to prevent the utilization of food and medicine as instruments of political pressure.

Guinea noted how the continuity of the proposal in the UN symbolizes cohesive world opposition to the U.S. hostile measures against Cuba.

The representatives of Zambia, Zimbabwe, Myanmar, Syria, Indonesia and Laos spoke in similar terms. Given the number of countries that had asked to speak and the length of the debate, the president of the General Assembly decided to move to an immediate vote on the resolution.

GRANMA INTERNATIONAL

Havana. November 5, 2003


Result of the vote COUNTRIES THAT SUPPORTED THE CUBAN RESOLUTION (179

NORTH AFRICA AND THE MIDDLE EAST Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, United Arab Emirates, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania, Oman, Qatar, Syria, Tunisia, Yemen.

SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA Angola, Benin, Botswana, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cape Verde Islands, Cameroon, Chad, Comoro Islands, Congo, Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gabon, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Guinea Bissau, Guinea Equatorial, Kenya, Lesotho, Mali, Mauritius, Mozambique, Namibia, Nigeria, Rwanda, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Sao Tome and Principe, Senegal, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Somalia, South Africa, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Togo, Uganda, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Ivory Coast, Madagascar, Malawi, Niger, and the Central African Republic.

LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, the Bahamas, Belize, Bolivia, Brazil, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Chile, Dominica, Ecuador, Granada, Guatemala, Guyana, Honduras, Haiti, Jamaica, Mexico, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Dominican Republic, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Surinam, Trinidad and Tobago, Uruguay and Venezuela.

ASIA AND OCEANIA Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Brunei, Cambodia, China, Fiji, the Philippines, India, Indonesia, Japan, Laos, Malaysia, the Maldives, Mongolia, Myanmar, Nauru, Nepal, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, PDR Korea, South Korea, Samoa, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Thailand, East Timor, Tonga, Tuvalu, Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, Viet Nam, Kiribati, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakstan, and Kyrgystan.

EUROPE AND OTHER STATES Andorra, Australia, Austria, Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Croatia, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Georgia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Greece, Hungary, the Netherlands, Ireland, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Lithuania, Malta, Monaco, Macedonia, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Poland, United Kingdom, San Marino, Germany, Spain, Turkey, Moldavia, Romania, Russia, Serbia and Montenegro, Slovakia, Slovenia, Sweden, Switzerland, and Ukraine.

COUNTRIES THAT VOTED AGAINST (3) The United States, Israel, and the Marshall Islands.

COUNTRIES THAT ABSTAINED (2) Micronesia and Morocco.

COUNTRIES ABSENT FROM THE VOTE El Salvador, Iraq (indebted), Kuwait, Liberia (indebted), Nicaragua, Palau and Uzbekistan


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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I

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hamsi128
hamsi128


Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
posted February 13, 2004 07:54 AM

consis stop spammimg on this beatiful thread with your copy paste crap articles... you want that on your threads people stay on topic then you do the reverse... btw for the articles dont read too much of them... ermm especially from same sources it will confuse you
commandante128

p.s. back to topic ... libre cuba immediatly

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted February 13, 2004 08:26 AM

I Respectfully Withdraw From People Who Don't Want The Truth

This is rediculous. I post real-life facts supported with real-life articles written by real-life people who know what is really happening with Cuba and I don't get debated. Instead I get asked to leave the thread for it. All this despite me voting in favor of Cuba's international trading freedom. First I'm a "flat-footed Fly-boy who dodges responsibility" and now I'm a "spammer" for giving everyone articles that clearly relate to this topic. If you people don't want to hear the truth and you want to live in some fantasy world lingering on "the beauty of Cuba" then by all means, knock yourselves out.

I may be withdrawing from this thread but those articles will remain and I think those articles will speak for themselves. They say a lot about issues concerning Cuba.

I'm sure this topic will continue without acceptance of tangible evidence, however, to what end can you possibly hope to rally people towards a cause for liberating Cuba if you guys are going to verbally shoot down and out-right reject the evidence presented? Evidence that is supported! This is rediculous.
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted February 13, 2004 04:50 PM

Angelito, pelased to have you here, as the one who has visited Cuba.
I have some friends who have been there also and tell me stuff.

The Cuban people see Castro as their hero. Even younger ones, which you say are critical to him, respect him and don’t want him go.
I too have a great respect towards this man. He is by no doubt one of the most extraordinary persons of the 20th century. His acomplishments, determance, his ideals, bravery, chrisma make him a hero in the eye of many Cubans, in my eye and in the eye of many people around the world. He and only a dozen other man had the strength to fight and eventually overthrow Batista’s oppresive regime. He alone had the courage to stood against America, support the struggle for independence and freedom of many African and American countries.
Even though many Westerners believe that Cubans are oppresed and unhappy under Castro, they were really surprised when in the elections for the Assembly in 1993, which were observed by more than 200 foreign observers, 88% voted for the official list of candidates. All the observers said the elections were fair, without any government pressure, secret-ballot process took place. This were no traditional elections as we are used to, but the results clearly showed that the Cubans are not oppressed and are pleased with Castro. Furthermore when Castro went for a walk in areas “supposed to be hostile” without security, Cubans went out their homes to hug him, kiss him, touch his beard. Here are the heroes:

Angelito has a point when he says more young Cubans start to question Castro, but we should all be aware that if Cuba opens and abandons Communism, that doesn’t mean that money will start pouring in. It’s lucrative for young Cubans to see the wealth of USA or Germany, and think that’s what’s on on the other side. But if they look how capitalism “functions” in other Latin American or Third-World countries, it just might burst their bubble.
It’s also true that some liberalization of Cuban economy occurred after the fall of USSR, and we can only hope for more if the sanctions are dropped.
I too, would like to see a more democratic Cuba, but it’s a more realistic goal if the sanctions are lifted and ideas and capital allowed to enter Cuba freely. Even then, Cubans should decide for their road themselves, no matter what it is (even Communism).

Consis, I think it would be better, if you just summarize the article you intend to post and provide the link for those who want to read it, instead of copying the entire thing.

“As an American citizen I have the power to help bring about a change in this matter. It's my vote that matters to this subject, not yours Svarog.”
I’m amused by your boyish optimism. Do you honestly believe you and your one vote are so powerful to change things? Do you believe you and your one vote have any influence on American foreign policy? Or, let me put it even more radically: Do you believe all the Americans and all of their votes have any influence on American foreign policy? Then how come if the majority of Americans are for dropping the sanctions, nothing happens?
Aaaah, the illusion of democracy…

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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

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