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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Alternative 10 commandments?
Thread: Alternative 10 commandments? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
privatehudson
privatehudson


Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
posted February 28, 2004 07:21 PM

Alternative 10 commandments?

I was browsing a forum yesterday and saw a thread about Solon's commandments, and how they differ from Moses'. (or god's if you prefer) The commandments of God/Moses are

The Ten Commandments of Moses (Deuteronomy 5:6-21, Exodus 20:3-16) run as follows*

1. Have no other gods before me [the God of the Hebrews].
2. Make no images of anything in heaven, earth or the sea, and do not worship or labor for them.
3. Do not vainly use the name of your God [the God of the Hebrews].
4. Do no work on the seventh day of the week.
5. Honor your parents.
6. Do not kill.
7. Do not commit adultery.
8. Do not steal.
9. Do not give false testimony against another.
10. Do not desire another's wife or anything that belongs to another.


Whereas the commandments of Solon were

Let us now turn to the Ten Commandments of Solon (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, 1.60), which run as follows:

1. Trust good character more than promises.
2. Do not speak falsely.
3. Do good things.
4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.
5. Learn to obey before you command.
6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.
7. Make reason your supreme commander.
8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.
9. Honor the gods.
10. Have regard for your parents.


Solon was a man who designed the Athenian constitution, born around 638 BC.

So the interesting question is, which do you prefer? Which makes more sense in a modern society? Does some in one set make no sense, and if so why?  

I have my own opinions, but I thought this would be a good topic  

*Actually, the author of the article seems to have slightly changed the wording of some of the commandments, but the gist of them is there I think
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madmartigan
madmartigan


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
posted March 01, 2004 06:49 PM
Edited By: madmartigan on 1 Mar 2004

Quote:
1. Trust good character more than promises.
2. Do not speak falsely.
3. Do good things.
4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.
5. Learn to obey before you command.
6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.
7. Make reason your supreme commander.
8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.
9. Honor the gods.
10. Have regard for your parents.




I will stick with the former ones I think. Cuz, these look so ambigious to me. All those above depends on the definition of "good". Define "good character". Define "good things" etc.

On second and a more serious note, ignoring the moral argument of what is "good and evil", these look just plain simple; and they look more dogmatic to me: "learn to obey before you command" - "Make reason your supreme commander". I think I can see reason behind them, but they do not look so divine. It just says "do what I say, stop trying to see what lies behind. Just do what I say and you will get peace in the end"

"Have regard for your parents" What about a child molester dad? Are we expected to respect them as well? I do know this commandment does not say "have regard in any condition". But it is my belief that who really is "mature" already have these virtues the way they are meant to be. I find it quite ridicoulus to list them as commandments that will grant a nice place in heaven.

And I wish my English was way better

Anyways, since I believe that any kind of religion is EVIL, I better not post about this anymore.
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Nidhgrin
Nidhgrin


Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
posted March 01, 2004 07:29 PM
Edited By: Nidhgrin on 1 Mar 2004

Personally I'd prefer the second set of rules (if I had to choose).  The first four in the first set of rules are completely about god and that just makes all the hair on my head (quite a lot ) rise.  Leaves only 6 actual rules imho.  Second list of commandments is more ambiguous though as mad said - whereas the first list are more statements - easier to apply.  These rules are seriously outdated though imo, especially the first list.  Tell a poor streetkid in Latin America stealing is bad for instance... not so easy.

If I'd had to write a list of ten personal commandments for myself it would be very very different.  Then again I'm not Mozes (luckily perhaps )


PS: Good to see you again mad! ... second best Fest player in the world

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted March 02, 2004 12:38 AM

Quote:
If I'd had to write a list of ten personal commandments for myself it would be very very different.


And why don't you do that? I'd really want to see if you can do better than Moses. (i'm not joking here)
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hamsi128
hamsi128


Promising
Supreme Hero
tosser tavern owner
posted March 02, 2004 12:50 AM

3 comments :

1) science is the key
2) dont become like others you dont need faith to rest strong.. believe yourself..
3) live and learn and die.. Nature bless ecology, worms needs your mineral, thanks for completing your service for nature... have fun

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doomnezeu
doomnezeu


Supreme Hero
Miaumiaumiau
posted March 02, 2004 09:37 AM

I belive none of them make sense. Sure, they made sense about some thousand years ago, but not now. They seem to me idealistic and childish, and they do not fit in any modern case.
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted March 02, 2004 10:10 AM
Edited By: Consis on 2 Mar 2004

My Personal Ten Commandments

1. Listen to what people say to you.

2. Donot give up on communication.

3. Love the innocent.

4. Sacrifice greed for reason.

5. Protect your loved ones with all that you are.

6. Learn to forgive as God forgives you.

7. Contribute to humanity by adding substance to its culture.

8. Love thy neighbor.

9. Honor life's heroes, both women and men.

10. Remind your children of the sacrifices of the elder generation.

I try to live by these rules that I have set out for myself. I believe that with these 10 basic rules I can die a good man with honorable memories. If both, people I've met and my family, learn to respect me for it then I did my job. That is the way in which I wish to die. Because when I'm gone I would want people to laugh and enjoy a good meal over the memories of my life and what I did for them.
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Lord_Woock
Lord_Woock


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
posted March 02, 2004 10:36 AM
Edited By: Lord_Woock on 2 Mar 2004

Quote:
9. Honor Heroes


That's what we're all here for, no?
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madmartigan
madmartigan


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
posted March 02, 2004 03:35 PM

Quote:
Quote:
If I'd had to write a list of ten personal commandments for myself it would be very very different.


And why don't you do that? I'd really want to see if you can do better than Moses. (i'm not joking here)


I think you had better start a new thread for that. I bet it would be a very interesting thread to see

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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted March 02, 2004 10:06 PM

Who here thinks Moses did a good job, writing those commandments? I donít.
Oh, and just for the record, Svarog originally was a supreme god of Slavic pagan religion. So, donít give me that ďYou are not MosesĒ crap. I am better than Moses. I am the SUPREME GOD.
But in fact, I think everybody should be a supreme god of themselves. So my personal religion would be a weird mixture of Christianity and Satanism, as are the following commandments.

1. Do not hide your true self from others. Share your emotions.
2. Do not kill, hurt or harm other people.
3. Trust in yourself.
4. Aspire knowledge and wisdom.
5. Indulge yourself. Grant yourself all mental, physical and emotional desires.
6. Have always an open mind for new ways and ideas, without any prejudices.
7. Do whatever you want, as long as you donít hurt others.
8. Love as many people as you can and find ways to show it.
9. Stand for what you believe in and fight for it.
10. Do not follow any moral laws you donít associate with. (Including these)

Are they any good? What do you think?

<Consis, is it Ok with you if I criticize your commandments?
Also, madmartigan, this is the thread, so post commandments if you have any >
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted March 03, 2004 12:32 AM
Edited By: Consis on 2 Mar 2004

Constructive Criticism

I think this post will need my usual disclaimer. The thoughts and feelings described in this post are my own and belong to no one else. All ideas and remarks are not meant to convince or cajole anyone into my own direction of thought. If someone disagrees with my ideas then I respect their disagreement before even written as I know I am only one man with only one opinion in an entire world of people and circumstances.
Having said that:
--------------------------------------------
Svarog,

I welcome your criticism as I value your unique perspective on life. Please feel free to state your opinion.

After reading through your personal commandments I feel we are two very different people. I like diversity and I think without it we humans would be just another link in the foodchain, not residing at its peak.

--------------------------------------------
I really don't have much to say about these particular commandments of yours.

Quote:
1. Do not hide your true self from others. Share your emotions.
2. Do not kill, hurt or harm other people.
3. Trust in yourself.
4. Aspire knowledge and wisdom.
5. Indulge yourself. Grant yourself all mental, physical and emotional desires.
6. Have always an open mind for new ways and ideas, without any prejudices.
7. Do whatever you want, as long as you donít hurt others.
8. Love as many people as you can and find ways to show it.
9. Stand for what you believe in and fight for it.
10. Do not follow any moral laws you donít associate with.


I kinda feel like most are things that I believe go unsaid as a rule of thumb. The only one I would disagree with is # 2.

I believe that whether you wish to harm people or not, harm will find you. It is a fact of life. I believe that those who hide from battle die with no honor. In this world there are people that want to deliberately hurt both you and all whom you love. When the day comes that your safety is challenged by these people you will have two choices.

Choice#1: Stand, fight, and secure a lasting victory that give your children and their children peace beyond your mortal reach.

Choice#2: Run, hide, and die without honor leaving behind no memory of your deeds and leaving your children to fend for themselves against a threat they are not strong enough to fight.

My choice will ultimately lead me to either hurt or kill someone in the defense of those people that I hold most dear to my heart. This is the man that I am. Had I no ability to make such decisions what right would I have to exist? I have a job. I will do it and I may die doing it. If that is my destiny then so be it. Let my children and theirs remember me as a man who would give all of himself towards being a father, a husband, and a friend.
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Khaelo
Khaelo


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
posted March 03, 2004 01:27 AM

Svarog, your Commandments #2 and #7 seem to resemble the Wiccan Rede.    Like Consis, though, I must take some issue with them.  The piece of the Rede I see in your Commandments is "An (if) it harm none, do as you will."  That's fine as far as it goes, but, as Consis points out, sometimes harm is inevitable regardless of one's course of action/inaction.  The second part of the Rede I've heard is, "An it harm some, do as you should."  Of course, that offers virtually no specific guidance -- only that one must think before taking action.  Still, it seems a valuable addendum to a rule that otherwise leaves one in the cold concerning certain dilemmas.  It also supports your Commandment #9 better (the part about fighting...).

Consistently with Peacemaker's theory of gendered ethical thinking , I have no list of commandments to offer.  The Golden Rule and the Rede cover the territory well enough, leaving room for situational judgement.  That's good enough for me.

====
For reference -- Peacemaker's theory:
Quote:
I think the dialogue going on between the two of you also represents an interesting consideration I have heard of before -- about the different ways men and women tend to think ethically. Women tend to be situationally ethical -- adjusting their sights based on new data and the particulars of a given situation.

Men on the other hand incline toward "the black-letter law" -- establishing consistent guidelines and then judging and reacting to each situation within those guidelines.

While this isn't a set pattern, as alternative considerations set forth in both your posts suggests, the tendency is still there.

====
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted March 04, 2004 12:41 AM

Khaelo, Consis. What you say about my commandments colliding with each other and not providing always the solution for problems, is something I undoubtedly agree with. If it had been possible to create a code that would always give the best solution, we would have had a perfect world. Iím afraid thatís not the case. This thing works something like the legal check-and-balance system. The rules give some general guidelines, but there are many situations where they are in collision with each other (ďintersect their jurisdictionsĒ). In those cases, I think, one must act according to his consent, and do what he thinks is best. Thatís always the dilemma in life.

Gendered ethical thinking. Hmmm, interesting theory. This view might hold some validity, but Iím (or at least I want to be) more inclined to the feminine way of dealing with things. As you might have noticed, I have tendency to reject pre-set rules for dealing with problems and value freedom in my commandments. But, this whole gendered thinking is actually an elegant way for you girls to avoid the effort to write your own commandments. You sneaky son of aÖ You thought I wouldnít notice, didnít ya?!

ďI kinda feel like most are things that I believe go unsaid as a rule of thumb.Ē

Glad to hear that, Consis. That means we are not that different afterall. Youíll be surprised how many of my commandments are ďanti-ChristianĒ and blasphemy according to many religious people.

A Modest criticism for Consisí commandments. Itís not me, he said he wouldnít mind, didnít you consis.

1. Listen to what people say to you.
And why should you? If someone speaks rubbish or boring things, why should you?

2. Donot give up on communication.

3. Love the innocent.
How can the bare fact of innocence make me love someone, if they hadnít done anything for me before?

4. Sacrifice greed for reason.
Depends what kind of greed we are talking about. If itís greed for material things, I agree. But greed for love or sexual pleasure shouldnít be sacrificed, for ďreasonable abstinenceĒ.

5. Protect your loved ones with all that you are.

6. Learn to forgive as God forgives you.
Why do you have to forgive even those who donít ask for forgiveness and donít repent for what they had done to you?

7. Contribute to humanity by adding substance to its culture.

8. Love thy neighbor.
Even if my neighbor hates me and wants me dead?!

9. Honor life's heroes, both women and men.

10. Remind your children of the sacrifices of the elder generation.

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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

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Dragon_Slayer
Dragon_Slayer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
toss toss toss
posted March 04, 2004 09:05 AM

It seems that i am breaking one of the commandments every week! I work almost every sunday! Did i do bad?
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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted March 04, 2004 11:24 AM
Edited By: Consis on 9 Mar 2004

Struggle For Heroism

Quote:
I think the dialogue going on between the two of you also represents an interesting consideration I have heard of before -- about the different ways men and women tend to think ethically. Women tend to be situationally ethical -- adjusting their sights based on new data and the particulars of a given situation.

Men on the other hand incline toward "the black-letter law" -- establishing consistent guidelines and then judging and reacting to each situation within those guidelines.


Hmm, a truly interesting observation. The idea of myself inclining toward the black-letter law sounds consistent with my way of doing things. I do establish guidelines and then judge/react to each situation within those guidelines.

As I ask myself why, I find that the answer lies in my search for the stability of trust. In fact my need for trust in a relationship is so great that it governs all my actions. I have been known to sever many relationships due to a lack of trust. I would say that one could quite possibly describe it as my predictable character flaw. It could be considered a flaw because I am easily able to be predicted upon and thus could be easily taken advantage of through this flaw. If someone breaks my trust I do not get angry at all. Having this as my most sacred vow dictates that I simply let go of the relationship, with the person whom lost my trust, forever. I am a man and perhaps this sort of thinking might resonate with some other men.

I have tried the way of the woman in the extent to which you have described. Approaching with situationally ethical sights based on new data and the particulars of the circumstances. After having tried it I realized that women had known this all along and men have been slowly evolving towards it. We are not there yet. I guarantee there are times when I discard stepping back and looking at the situation objectively, while considering all the facts. Those are times when I remind myself that I am being a male about the whole thing. When I do, I remind myself of what men once did when they simply butted heads and vied for dominance of geographical territory.

We were savages without logic. Did I just say that? Yes, I did. I believe women gave us logic despite how many times we might hear people comment about a woman and her feelings. To this very day I look for women that display such logical attributes and aspire to be more like them. The reason is because I still compete with other males in the most questionable circumstances. It's really very difficult and just about completely unavoidable. This reaction is so naturally instinctive that it is by and large difficult to spot without training from an outside observer. If I'm not careful my instincts to out-do another male will get me into trouble. Afterwards, my wife is the first to point out my lack of logic. She'll quickly ask me what I gained by doing that and my inward response is to say, "I win" while my outer response is to ask, "What did I win?" When the answer is irrefutably "nothing" then I am left with logic and a wife who gives me the look of being right as she knew she would be.

Here is an example of what I have described as a competition with absolutely no victor:

A few of the neighbors have planned an outting at the local park together and have invited both I and my wife. We all go to the park at the pre-designated time. All the neighbors including myself are married. While the women are sitting by the blankets and talking amongst themselves the men decide to have a "friendly" game of frisby-football. While we are playing one of the men on the other team decides to take off his shirt. I see that and my instinctive response is to say, "Oh please, you call that a chest?" He is ofcourse running around with the "imaginary-lat-syndrome". That's where a guy pretends his muscles are pushing his arms outward. I didn't say anything to him. I simply told myself and then plotted to try and humiliate him. All the women were watching and everyone there was married. As the game went on I looked for as many opportunities as I could to out-run him or dodge his attempts to grab the frisby from my hand. All the while I smiled and laughed at him when he couldn't beat me.

So I ask you, LoL, how completely male is that? I eventually satisfied my ego by out-running him when I had the frisby and I scored for our team. After it was over as we drove home my wife just laughed but I felt prehistoric. I felt that all my schooling over the years was incosiderately thrown to the wind because I had to win against some other guy. I want to be intelligent not ignorant and impulsive. How completely low I felt as we drove home. I told myself, never again.
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Sir_Stiven
Sir_Stiven


Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
posted March 04, 2004 01:49 PM

1) learn to worship me and all good things will happen to you.

2) you are not worthy the 3-10 commandments..keep practising on 1 until perfection is reached.


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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted March 05, 2004 03:16 AM

Lol. Oh, Consis, Iím laughing while Iím writing this. Sorry, Iím not laughing at you, just the way you vividly described the situation, like Iím practically there. It has happened to me many times, though not as apparent as your case. I have caught myself communicating very differently with males, as opposed to the kind, courting approach with females. (you know, trying to make Ďem laugh, oversee the stupid things they say, and that sort of things.) And it was not too long ago that I realized this.

The way we, males, react in some situations may seem barbaric and uncivilized, but itís just a part of our character, of our animalistic character. Because no matter how hard we try, I believe, we, humans are nothing more than animals. The instinct of competing with other males, as carnal as it may sound, is there, written in our genetic code. You canít escape it, it will happen again and again. Just as it is in the womenís genetic code, to be more emotional and intuititive than males. And itís nothing to be afraid of, thatís what makes us human (or animal, whatever you prefer ).

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Consis
Consis


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
posted March 05, 2004 09:09 AM

Quite True

Quote:
The way we, males, react in some situations may seem barbaric and uncivilized, but itís just a part of our character, of our animalistic character. The instinct of competing with other males, as carnal as it may sound, is there, written in our genetic code. You canít escape it.


Indeed....


I do still, want to train myself to avoid such behavior. As you say, it is so difficult, if not impossible though.

React, overwhelm, mortify, and reward.(Ugly absolutely ugly)

Restraint, control, conform, and dignify.(I like that formula much better)
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Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted March 05, 2004 04:07 PM

Quote:
Restraint, control, conform, and dignify.(I like that formula much better)

Can't agree on that.
5. Indulge yourself. Grant yourself all mental, physical and emotional desires.

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Vadskye91
Vadskye91


Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
posted March 05, 2004 04:15 PM
Edited By: Vadskye91 on 5 Mar 2004

Solon's commandments don't make any sense.  What is good?  How can you be bad if you do not know what good is?  Having no standard for comparing good, he is really just saying that he dissaproves of it.  Unless you view him as completely incorruptible and perfect, his commandments are meaningless.
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