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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: How do the offence and armorer skills work exactly?
Thread: How do the offence and armorer skills work exactly? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
GabyStan
GabyStan


Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
posted September 29, 2005 11:07 PM

Excellent thread here, my hat's off, Angelito. Same for Wub, Xarfax, Csarmi and, why not, Justdoing. Thanks guys!

I had much more easy time playing Heroes2, there I knew maximum damage is 300%, increasing by 10% for every extra A over D (so 20+ A meant 300% dmg, the upper limit), and 20% the minimum damage, decreasing by 5% for every D over A (limit when +16 D). Here's painful to do the computing, but still it gives you important information for chosing the best victim in your attacks (so to get maximum bonuses). And there's many times indecision which monster to attack with the champs out of 2-3 stacks, now we'll know that.

Speaking of Heroes2 (don't worry, I'll get to H3, after all), there was a guy saying your troops have to be dunno how many times stronger than the wandering creatures for them to flee (impressed by your forces) or offering to join, but not hit points-wise. Surely not depending on hero skills, for in H2 AI always makes its choice to attack (or not) on the HP ratio of the opposing troops. I thought it may depend also on kind of troops in the attacking army (archers, Dragons etc.) So my question is if anybody can tell us how can we calculate when a stack of creatures (of course if we know exactly how many they are) will fight or flee (join) before our hero in Heroes 3?

(Sorry for being "a bit" off topic!)

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted September 29, 2005 11:15 PM

I would suggest u open a new thread with that question Gaby, coz it really goes too far offtopic and would lead the thread in a completely different direction....
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GabyStan
GabyStan


Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
posted September 29, 2005 11:50 PM

Ok, Angelito, I'll do that in a moment, sorry!
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Icecream
Icecream


Hired Hero
posted October 10, 2005 10:55 PM

ok that confused me so much i couldnt be bothered to read it again isnt there an easier way of putting that then all them calculations and i dont even know what a peasant is unless its from homm 1-2
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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted October 11, 2005 12:03 AM

Yes there is an easier way without calculations:

offense = bigger sword
armorer = bigger shield


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icecream
icecream


Hired Hero
posted October 15, 2005 12:04 AM

ok angel i maybe be thick and not on the ball but cmon do you think im proper stupid or something its just all that maths is tough for a 15 year old lol maybe some day i will understand and beat you but doubt it lol

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted October 15, 2005 01:58 AM
Edited By: bjorn190 on 14 Oct 2005

Quote:


We know, that expert armorer reduces damage by 15%.
So the D/A difference in this case reduced the damage by 59,5% (74,5% - 15%).

We also know, that the maximum difference which counts is 28.

Conclusion: 59,5% / 28 = 2,125



:/

Great post, but once you put in "We know, that expert armorer reduces damage by 15%" the entire test is tainted and put in a parallell world where the game works differently

In a test u gotta test everything. I think someone told how it works in a reply but well, if u keep testing skills, u save alot of time by comparing it all to normal, and then observing how the skills work.

I think someone posted in a reply how armorer does work, but Im adding it again..

"The peasants always did 1019 points damage. I reduced the D/A difference from 90 down to 28....allways 1019 damage"

4000 x 0.30 x 0.85 = 1020  (rounded down?)

0.30 is because 28 x 2.5% = 70% reduction due to stats

x 0.85 is because armourer mod is multiplied and not added.

0.7 x 0.85 = 0.595  Correct!

The other interesting points with armorer/offence (not tested) is that while offence mod does not grow with damage, armorer does. So armorer is way better than offence, when the attack stats are high, which they are in most games because we all pick attack when we can.

But then again, we do more dmg vs the map than we take, so offence prolly better vs map.

It was good to find out about the 30% minimum damage before skills.

Good thread





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Fuzzier
Fuzzier


Adventuring Hero
posted June 16, 2006 10:04 AM
Edited by Fuzzier at 10:06, 16 Jun 2006.

So when Offense, Defense and Luck are mixed, the formula becomes:
a) att >= def:
(dmg x quan) x [1 + min{5x(att-def), 300}/100 + offense% + luck bonus] x (1 - armorer%)
b) att < def:
(dmg x quan) x (1 + offense% + luck bonus) x [1 - min{2.5x(def-att), 70}/100] x (1 - armorer%)

note 1: luck bonus = 100% if Good Luck appears; otherwise 0%.
note 2: Armorer glitch, if the defender has Armorer skill, then the final damage is reduced by 1.
note 3: the final damage is always rounded down, and cannot be less than 1.

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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted June 17, 2006 05:55 PM

Quote:
note 2: Armorer glitch, if the defender has Armorer skill, then the final damage is reduced by 1.
I think this is because of integer round off.
But anyway damage calculation is quite simple:

"The specific formula, including all factors, is this: Base damage*(1+a+b+c...)*(1-q)(1-r)(1-s)... , where a,b,c,... are damage bonuses as decimal numbers (e.g. 50% = 0,50), while q,r,s,... are damage reductions. Thus, damage bonuses are cumulative, while damage reductions are multiplicative. Taking the integer part may reduce damage calculated by this formula. Damage cannot be reduced to less than 1."

I have a list of "all factors" if you want it.

The classic mistake one makes is when a dread knight deals double damage and recieves good luck. Many people think damage is doubled twice for a total of 4x (ignoring other factors) when it is in fact 3x.

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DonIgnacio
DonIgnacio

Tavern Dweller
newly hooked strategist
posted March 27, 2007 11:02 AM
Edited by DonIgnacio at 11:05, 27 Mar 2007.

Quote:
I have a list of "all factors" if you want it.


After working thru and participating in this thread and the Shield vs. Stone Skin discussion, we should at least give a little more meat to your formula.

a = min(3, 0.05 * (A-D)) when A>D
a = max(-0.7, -0.025 * (D-A)) when D>A

b = {OffenceSkill} * (1 + 0.05 * {Offence-Specialist-Level})

c = 0 without luck, 1 with luck

Expert {OffenceSkill} is 0.3

q = {ArmorerSkill} * (1 + 0.05 * {Armorer-Specialist-Level})

r = 0 without shield, 0.3 with shield

Expert {ArmorerSkill} is 0.15

Archery would replace Offence on ranged attacks. Not sure how some of the artefacts and an Archery specialist would all weigh together, though.

So I am curious, Ecoris: What other truly separate bonusses (d, e, ...) and multipliers (s, t, ...) are out there? Things that don't target base damage or A and D?

Don Ignacio

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ecoris
ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 27, 2007 12:50 PM bonus applied.
Edited by ecoris at 12:58, 27 Mar 2007.

Other factors

I have a list of them. I've copied it from some other webpage long ago, perhaps I've added a little over time:

Damage bonuses:

0,05 * (attack - defense) if attack is > defense, but no more than 3.

archery skill (0,10 / 0,25 / 0,50) bonus for shooters. Archery specialists get greater bonuses.

offense skill (0,10 / 0,20 / 0,30) bonus for melee creatures. Offense specialists get greater bonuses

1 for good luck.

0,05 * distance for Champions and Cavaliers (not vs. pikemen/halbardiers).

1 for elemental attacking opposite elemental type.

0,50 for creatures which "hate" other creatures: Angels vs. Devils, Titans vs. Black Dragons, Efreet vs. Genies.

1 for ballista's "double damage"

1 for dread knight's "double damage"

0,03 * (hero's level)/(blessed creature's level) if creature has Bless and the hero has the Bless special ability.


Fire Shield damage = 20% for Efreet. See details at the bottom.

Damage reduction:

0,025 * (defense - attack)) if defense > attack, but no more than 0,70.

armorer reduction (0,05 / 0,10 / 0,15). Armorer specialists get greater reductions

0,50 if attacker is shooting through a wall and is not a mage, archmage, enchanter, or sharpshooter, and the attacker does not have the Golden Bow.

0,50 if attacker is shooting over 10 hexes, and the attacker is not a sharpshooter or arrow tower, and the attacker does not have the Golden Bow.

0,50 if attacker is a shooter in melee, and is not a mage, archmage, titan, beholder, evil eye, medusa, medusa queen, enchanter, or ballista.

blindness retaliation penalty (0,50 / 0,75 / 1 according to caster's Fire Magic level) Unicorn's blind is the spell Blind at basic level; at magic plains the affected creature won't retaliate (expert level). The hero's Fire Magic skill, if any, has no effect. It's a level 2 spell.

air shield reduction if attacker is shooting (depending on casters Air Magic level (Siege tower urret bug: damage doubled??)

shield reduction if attacker is in melee (0,15 / 0,30 depending on caster's Earth Magic level).

0,50 if defender is stoned (i.e. damage done to a pertified stack is reduced; it retaliates at full strength).
This works the other way round with paralyzation: The attacker deals full damage, but the paralyzed stack gets a 0,50 damage reduction when/if it retaliates.

0,50 if attacker is a Psi elemental and defender is immune to mind spells. Titans included. Undead included. Black orb has no effect.

0,50 if attacker is a Magic elemental and defender is a Magic elemental or Black Dragon. Anti Magic has no effect. Black orb has no effect. 100% magic resistance has no effect.

------

Artifacts increasing archery skill add their percentage value to the damage bonus (e.g. having the bowstring of unicorn mane will icrease advanced archery to 35% not to 27,5%).

Archery artifact bonuses do not apply if the hero does not have the archery skill.

------

Fire Shield: Damage is treated as 'fire' not 'magic fire', immunities vs 'fire' are not affected by black orb, only immunities vs magic fire. Damage is calculated from BD*(damage bonus) but before damage reduction is applied! This seriously hurts creatures with melee penalties and high damage bonuses. Prot. from fire will reduce damage.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted March 27, 2007 12:55 PM

Nice summary here Ecoris. +QP applied.
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ecoris
ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 27, 2007 01:00 PM

Thanks! I don't hope you mind that I was editing it, but you didn't really leave me any chance .
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Demarest
Demarest


Known Hero
posted March 27, 2007 01:32 PM

Question: In your damage reduction factors, you list Shield. But in damage bonuses, there's no mention of Bloodlust or the Ogre Magi's Bloodlust. Am I missing something?

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Ecoris
Ecoris


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted March 27, 2007 02:18 PM

Bloodlust gives a bonus to attack skill, this changes the attack / defense comparison, it doesn't affect damage directly.
The shield spell directly changes damage.

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Demarest
Demarest


Known Hero
posted March 27, 2007 02:44 PM

Woah! I didn't know that. I never cast Bloodlust, but I remember the description specifically saying hand-to-hand, just like Shield. Now that I know it raises attack power, the spell seems a bit better

That's what I was missing. Thanks.

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doom3d
doom3d


Known Hero
Avatar of general Z
posted March 27, 2007 09:47 PM
Edited by doom3d at 21:49, 27 Mar 2007.

I have attacked lvl2600 Tazar.  This minimum damage=1 was correct.
Thank You for this tread. Now I know, that shield is more useful, than bloodlust/stoneskin..
This 2.5% with Defense was also a surprise for me.

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GabyStan
GabyStan


Known Hero
Seeking Wisdom
posted April 30, 2007 11:54 PM

:O

Wow!

It seems that I have so much still to learn about Heroes3... Which means I'll stick around for quite a while...

Great stuff, Ecoris, thanks!
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Varjo
Varjo

Tavern Dweller
posted January 16, 2014 12:42 AM
Edited by Varjo at 00:43, 16 Jan 2014.

Okay, this goes a little bit off topic. I just did some testing trying to research the damage calculation. I agree with the damage bonus 300% or quadruple (400%) damage when the attack skill is greater than defense skill (A/D-ratio). However, I did not manage to replicate that -30% reduction when A/D-ratio is negative. In my tests, the damage reduction was -27,5% which compares to -11 A/D-ratio (-11*2,5%=27,5%).

I tested this with red and blue heroes with no secondary skills. Red had attack skill 89 which results to combined attack skill of 120. The blue hero had defense value of 9 which resulted in combined defense skill of 40. In this case, the A/D-ratio is -90 (hugely exaggerated). Both heroes had 100 Archangels which means that the base damage is 5000 points. But when the blue hero attacked the red hero's angel stack, they did 3625 damage. This is exactly the reduction of 27,5% (5000*(100%-27,5%)).

So have the rules changed, or what is wrong with my calculations?


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AlexSpl
AlexSpl


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted January 16, 2014 08:02 AM

Quote:
I tested this with red and blue heroes with no secondary skills. Red had attack skill 89 which results to combined attack skill of 120. The blue hero had defense value of 9 which resulted in combined defense skill of 40. In this case, the A/D-ratio is -90 (hugely exaggerated). Both heroes had 100 Archangels which means that the base damage is 5000 points. But when the blue hero attacked the red hero's angel stack, they did 3625 damage. This is exactly the reduction of 27,5% (5000*(100%-27,5%)).

So have the rules changed, or what is wrong with my calculations?


So, the blue hero with unknown Attack attacked the red hero with unknown Defense? If this is not the case, then, I suppose, the red hero retaliated after losing some of his Archangels.

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