Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: How do the logistics and pathfinding skills work exactly?
Thread: How do the logistics and pathfinding skills work exactly? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Daddy
Daddy


Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
posted September 19, 2004 10:27 PM

Quote:
Sorry guys...but itīs very poor to "spam" such an informatical thread with all these comments....these are not the wastelands....but the library...if someone posts a very usefull explanation in a different language, doesnīt mean all others can post "crap" in their language aswell.

So please stop talking offtopic..
Hmm, well, you are right. Sry, but Woocks post about Apple Pie somehow awakened the soammer in me  I will delete my post, if wished [dont wnat to cause some more or less serious trouble^^]

reg
Daddy
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted September 19, 2004 10:47 PM

....well at least it was funny spam..so ok with me

maybe angelito will translate it for u all!! Yeaaah!!



Xarfax1
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted September 20, 2004 06:54 PM

Quote:
If you accept to be Moderator then you could change that. Library of Enlightenment section of HC needs better mod. You can do it. You will be good!


Thx for the kind words Consis, but there is no1 of the MOD-team who think that Library needs new moderators.

Hexa and Kuma are 2 smart guys who know much about the game and itīs deeper secrets, so why do you want to replace them? I think they are doing a good job. And perhaps now after the big summer break, they will be more active again..
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted October 19, 2004 08:29 PM
Edited By: angelito on 19 Oct 2004

After a long time of thinking,i decided to do my very best and translate the german post of Xarfax.
Please donīt blame for the hundreds of following typos..


______________________________________________________________________________

Here u are angelito, this is how it works exactly

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Speed!

Letīs see if i can manage that on my old days. First of all, forget everything in the manual.
OK...here it goes:

The basicspeed depends on the battlespeed of the slowest creature on the day before.

Battlespeed of the slowest creature = basicspeed

3 Speed = 1500 movement points
4 Speed = 1560 movement points  
5 Speed = 1630 movement points  
6 Speed = 1700 movement points  
7 Speed = 1760 movement points  
8 Speed = 1830 movement points  
9 Speed = 1900 movement points  
10 Speed = 1960 movement points
>11 Speed = 2000 movement points

The basicspeed doesnīt raise anymore, when the battlespeed of the slowest creature is 11 or higher.
Those movement points will be reduced by every single "field value" depending on the terrain.

Field values:

Cobblestone road 50
Gravelstone road 65
Field road 75
(rivers donīt have any influence)

Dirt 125
Desert, Snow 150
Swamp 175
(cursed and holy ground donīt have any influence)

You donīt have to remind anything else. Every other kind of terrain reduces by 100 points.
For example: With a creature of speed 4, u can travel 15 times on Lava and one step on a cobblestone road (15 *100 + 50= 1550). The remaining 10 points arenīt to be used.

Additional to the basicspeed is the logistic skill. It is only calculated from the basicspeed.

If u have an angel with speed 13 for example, which means a basicspeed of 2000, and expert logistics, u have to add 30% of these 2000, which makes 600. U can use 2600 movement points though.

The raise of the logistic skill affects not before the next day, while raising the pathfinding skill affects immediately.

All further things which give movement points will be added aswell (stables, gloves, boots, miscellaneous buildings/places etc..)

Gloves 300
Boots 600
Stables 400
etc...

To wear 2 pair of gloves wonīt give u more speed. And also artifacts which raise the battlespeed have no influence on the movement points (e.g. cape, ring).

Creature specialits donīt give a speedbonus on the battlefield for the creatures, but raise the basicspeed of them as well.

For example Ivor with creature speciality Elves:

Normaly, elves have a battlespeed of 6, which means a basicspeed of 1700. You would be able to travel 17 steps on grass though. However, Ivor raises the speed up to 7, which means a basicspeed of 1760. Ivor could travel 17 steps on grass and one more step on the cobbelstone.

Something special is Sir Mullich. He gives +2 speed to the battlespeed of all creatures, which is put in practice exactly like this.

Something special as well are the logistic specialists (Gunnar, Dessa, Kyrre):

Here u can see how it works exactly, the unprecise circumlocution in the game, on the means of an example:

Kyrre Level 20 with titans and expert logisics has visited the stables and wears the gloves.

Kyrre level 20 speciality:
20*5% = 100%
100% of 30% expert logistics = 30%
30% logistics + 30% speciality = 60%
Speed of titan = 11 is equivalent to 2000 basicspeed
plus the 60% makes 3200 movementpoints
additional the 300 points for the gloves and 400 points for the stables makes 3900 movement points in summary.

As a formula:

Movement points = basicspeed + (basicspeed * logistic skill) + (logistic skill * hero level * 5%) + miscellaneous)

3900=2000+2000*(30%+(30%*20*5%)+300+400
3900=2000+2000*(30%+30%)+700
3900=2000+2000*60%+700
3900=2000+1200+700

Itīs normal that u donīt want to calculate everytime like this. But there are some reference points. For the fact, the hero should always be speed optimized (means = minimum speed 11), u could say he can travel

20 normal steps
26 with expert logistics
30 with expert logistics and stables

And a specialist has DOUBLED his skill when reaching Level 20!

A further speciality is the "Ghost hero". Thatīs a hero who travels without any troops. Without troops a hero has 1900 movement points. There are different ways to get a ghost hero, but up to 90% it happens when using known bugs, which i wonīt explain here...thatīs cheating for me.

There are many charts and calculation humbugs related to the pathfinding skill. But it is very easy. Every skill level reduces the distraction by 25 points, but it wonīt fall below 100.

Just as easy:

Snow -150 points distraction

Advanced pathfinding (2*+25)

Snow only -100 points distraction

Personally, i rarely give pathfinding on my main, coz it influences only on 4 kinds of terrain, it is easy to prevent and itīs an ineffective skill in the endfight. (not to mention all the streets)

Easy to prevent, coz the distraction wonīt count when u only have troops of that native terrain.

For example:

The main hero has used all his movement points and stands on snow terrain. At the and of the turn, a scout gives him creatures with a minimum of battlespeed 11.

At the beginning of the next turn he will have maximum movements though. To prevent the distraction of the snow terrain, the scout gives a Tower creature (e.g a gremlin) to the main hero. Now the main hero can travel without any distraction. With the help of a scoutchain, all the troops were given to the next and on the final to the main again. Summary:
Fullspeed without any distraction but without having lost a skill to pathfinding.

A little bit different are the movement points on water. It doesnīt matter which creatures the hero has, he will always have a basicspeed of 1500. The navigation skill does NOT raise the movement like described in percent (50, 100, 150), but is settled like this:

Without = 1500 movement points
Basic = 2250 movement points
Advanced = 3000 movement points
Expert = 3750 movement points
(As a comparison = expert logistics = 2600)

Sorry Xarfax, but this calculations are EXACTLY like the described ones... e.g.: 150% of 1500 = 2250, 1500 + 2250 = 3750..)

It will get extremely fast, when the navigation specialits show up (Sylvia, Voy). On level 20, the reduplication of the skill comes again, which means the hero gets added 300% of 1500 = 4500, 6000 in summary.
Additional there are the artefacts (necklace 1000, hat 600). Additional 500 for every lighthouse, as they work cumulative.

So you can see, those heroes can easily get 7000 to 8000 movement points. And here comes the big hit:
At the start of the turn, the hero flees from a battle on water and is rebought immediately from a tavern. You additional get those 400 points from the stables in the town eventualy (if it is castle) and can travel 83 (!!) steps across the adventure map, 3 circles around the enemy and back again.

You can see, these heros are brilliant suited for surprise attacks, even if they wonīt be leveled up to 20, they still have 40-50 movement points (In comparison: Level 20 Kyrre with expert logistics, stables and gloves = 39)

The movement over land...

....can be imagined like this. Ater the movement points have been set by the troops on the day before, the movement point distraction depending on the terrain is made. Important to know, the steps donīt include the starting field, however, the distraction is calculated from the field the hero comes. If u walk on cobblestone and make the last step on swamp (-50) and want to travel back the same way, u start from the swamp with -175, which means you will have 3 steps less! That is important to know when u want to arrange a backchain.

You can imagine the whole thing like a distraction-chain. If u ran over snow, then a bit over cobblestone and finaly get to the swamp, it looks similar to this:

-150 -150 -150 -150 -150 -50 -50 -50 -50 -50 -175 -175 -175 -175 = 1700 movement points
(14 steps)

...if u get only swamp creatures at the end of the cobbelstone road (native terrain = no additional distraction), the whole thing changes and it looks like u have some additional movement points:

-150 -150 -150 -150 -150 -50 -50 -50 -50 -50 -100 -100 -100 -100 -100 -100 -100 = 1700 movement points (17 steps)

You would get 2 additonal steps if u would only have Tower creatures at the start of your turn.

It says, your movement gets reduced by 1 step when u collect resources, attack wandering creatures or an oponentsī hero. Thatīs not correct. If you collect resources or attack a hero, your movement gets reduced by the value of the field the resources/hero lays/stands on. So if u were in money problems and have different possibilities of collecting resources, you should remind that. If you want to block an opponentsī hero, sometimes it is better to place a scout on swamp than directly on the road. If the opponent attacks the scout now, he gets reduced his movement points by THREE. Wandering creatures donīt reduce movement points, no matter if the hero clicks directly on them or places him in front of them.

Buildings which u can travel "over" (e.g. magic shrine) donīt reduce your movement, on buildings which u have to visit (e.g. dwarven treasury), you will lose 1 extra step. But there are buildings which give you some movement points:

Stables = 400 per day during the week of visiting
Waterhole = 400
Fountain of Youth = 400
Ralley flagg = 400
Oasis = 800

It says, those places give the travel bonus per day, correct is, you can get some new movement points after every fight. Especially on the oasis u can get many movement points, if u refill after every fight. The other 3 are to be thought of to visit, coz u surely lose some movement points to get there.

I hope i donīt have forgotten anyhting on that topic......thatīs all folks.

_________________________________________________________________________________


I hope this text is understandable for most of you. Now you should be informed exactly how the logistic and pathfinding skills work..

Greetings
angelito
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Conan
Conan


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted October 19, 2004 11:00 PM

thanks for the translation
Danke shune fur das Translationnat!
Merci beaucoup pour la belle transcription.

PS as you may have noticed, my german is horrible, but funny!
____________
Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service.... us. - Star Trek TNG

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
night_on_earth
night_on_earth


Hired Hero
posted October 21, 2004 11:32 AM

A big thank you, Angelito and Xarfax111

Thank you very much, Angelito and Xarfax111, for the valuable informations and explanations. I am always trying to look behind the explanations of the manual, and in this case I think, that you have uncovered the mechanism how overland and oversea movement is implemented in HoMM3.

I'd like to add an item:
A long time ago I have done some simple tests on this topic myself, and I remember, that if an army moves diagonally from one tile to another, it looses not xxx movement points as for straight crossing, but something like xxx : 1.4 movement points.

An example should make clear, what I mean:
A hero and his army have 1400 movement points left. Each further tile costs 100 movement points. Thus they can move 14 tiles horizontally or vertically or 1400 : (1.4 * 100) = 10 tiles diagonally.

Of course the value is close to the geometric value of "root of 2", but I am not sure if my testing gave really 1.4 or another value. Do you have informtion on the exact value for diagonal movement?


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
MysticPhoenix
MysticPhoenix


Adventuring Hero
posted October 26, 2004 05:04 AM

Quote:

Of course the value is close to the geometric value of "root of 2", but I am not sure if my testing gave really 1.4 or another value. Do you have informtion on the exact value for diagonal movement?



I have, and I am a friend of Xarfax so he won't mind if I correct some of his information.

The exact value is 1.418. It doesn't matter with low movement points (mp), but if you have 4,000 mp and you divide it by 1.4 you recieve 2,857 mp diagonally, but in fact you only have 2,820 mp for diagonal movement.

Some other annotations I'm quite sure of:
- Sea Captain's Hat gives only 500 instead of 600 additional mp.

- Sir Mullich's +2 bonus doesn't seem to apply to adventure movement (contrary to the creature specialists).

- Favorable Winds (SoD) reduce water movement from 100 per tile to 66 per tile, independent from navigation skill or sea movement artifacts.

- Admiral's Hat: If you have same movement on water and on land, boarding and unboarding a boat costs 100 mp. There might be a formula for different speeds, but it seems to be quite complicated and is only of limited use, but maybe someone of you has enough time and finds it out.

____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Ste
Ste


Promising
Famous Hero
Passed away
posted October 26, 2004 05:54 AM

Quote:

- Sir Mullich's +2 bonus doesn't seem to apply to adventure movement (contrary to the creature specialists).


are you sure? i just had a game with a hero who has this specialty and i'm quite sure ith increased the land movement. and the speed was shown as 5(7) (just an example)
____________
The ultimate WoG tester

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
MysticPhoenix
MysticPhoenix


Adventuring Hero
posted October 26, 2004 07:52 AM

Quote:
Quote:

- Sir Mullich's +2 bonus doesn't seem to apply to adventure movement (contrary to the creature specialists).


are you sure? i just had a game with a hero who has this specialty and i'm quite sure ith increased the land movement. and the speed was shown as 5(7) (just an example)


At least If WoG is right (as you know, you can display the remaining movement points of Heroes). No obscure options were chosen in my test map  and he hadn't any obvious movement advantages.


____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted October 26, 2004 03:42 PM

Quote:
Sorry Xarfax, but this calculations are EXACTLY like the described ones... e.g.: 150% of 1500 = 2250, 1500 + 2250 = 3750..)[/qoute]

Thats correct angelito, what i said is that those numbers arent calculated the way u describe it, furthermore those numbers are fixed in the game files, so those are fixed numbers ..not calculated numbers.





Quote:
I have, and I am a friend of Xarfax so he won't mind if I correct some of his information.


...argghh ..noooo....i DO mind!

Quote:
The exact value is 1.418. It doesn't matter with low movement points (mp), but if you have 4,000 mp and you divide it by 1.4 you recieve 2,857 mp diagonally, but in fact you only have 2,820 mp for diagonal movement.


1. I did not state 1.4 here!
2. 1.4 is a good enough and correct number by far. A more exact number has no practical use and is therefore more like wacking off statistics.

Quote:
- Sea Captain's Hat gives only 500 instead of 600 additional mp.


...yep that was definitely a typo..500 is correct.

Quote:
- Sir Mullich's +2 bonus doesn't seem to apply to adventure movement (contrary to the creature specialists).


Oh geez...thats when u accept another veterans advice without testing it yourself, even as i thought i did test it on my own. It seems that im totally wrong with that!!! So Mullich gives no bonus on the map.

Quote:
- Favorable Winds ...
- Admiral's Hat: .....


No practical us for online games so i dun care.

Sooo thank u Magic Phoenix that u corrected me.. thank you

Xarfax1
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted October 27, 2004 12:39 PM

Another correction:

Dimenson Door -300 Movementpoints
on Expert only -200 Movementpoints

(not -150)

Xarfax1
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
pacifist
pacifist


Famous Hero
posted November 04, 2004 10:55 AM

Quote:

Field values:

Cobblestone road 50
Gravelstone road 65
Field road 75
(rivers donīt have any influence)

Dirt 125
Desert, Snow 150
Swamp 175
(cursed and holy ground donīt have any influence)




Can someone confirm the value 125 for dirt? It seems to me there is no penalty on dirt but well on rough terrain.
Shouldn't that be 125 for rough instead?

On a recent map I played (Beltway for H3) a witch with 1 gnoll has enough movement points to be hired in a town based on rough terrain, pass a portal and reach a town on swamp terrain. The fact that she begins on rough terrain makes it impossible to her to reach the other town. If I hire a stronghold hero, switch the gnoll for a goblin in the rough terrain, then back to the gnoll in swamp, she is able to reach the town. So there is a penalty on rough.
The manual says 125 and nothing for dirt, but I learned to not blindly trust the manual .

Another interesting fact I noticed in the same map : Kyrre with one centaur on a dirt road and a little portion of dirt terrain is not able to reach a town while Dessa with one gobelin is able. They both have same special, centaur is faster than gobelin and still Dessa goes farther. I don't seem to recall that dirt is native terrain to stronghold too (as far as I know it's a terrain for undead)? A conflux hero with one sprite is also able to reach the town. The logistic skill bonus should have been enough to compensate the speed difference, no?

I'll have a look at it myself but if someone has an idea.


Thanks for the translation! Very helpfull data.
____________
http://www.youtube.com/user/alkoriak#g/u

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted November 04, 2004 12:14 PM

Yes you are right.
Instead of Dirt there should be written Rough
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
MysticPhoenix
MysticPhoenix


Adventuring Hero
posted November 04, 2004 03:16 PM
Edited By: MysticPhoenix on 4 Nov 2004

For those of you who understand Greman, you can find it a little bit re-written (put some structure in it), corrected and added with some graphics at Drachenwald.

It might be easier to find there, compared to going to the forum and searching for the post.

____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
tigris
tigris


Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
posted November 20, 2004 08:39 AM

Quote:
Example:
A hero with a pikeman on swamp has only 8 movementpoints (15/1.75)
A hero with an angel on swamp has only 11 movementpoints (20/1.75)
That means, a hero with a gnoll on swamp (native) has 15 tiles movement and has 4 more than the other one with the angel..




So if i understand correctly, no matter what is the hero's native town, if he has a pikeman on swamp he will move 8 tiltes and if he ahs a gnoll he'll move 15.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted November 20, 2004 09:20 PM

Thatīs correct...itīs the unit that counts, not the hero
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
tigris
tigris


Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
posted November 22, 2004 09:14 AM

well,that's something i didn't know.Thanks !
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted December 05, 2004 07:49 PM

Thread cleaned, Spam deleted.

Try to stay on-topic here..
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
tigris
tigris


Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
posted December 06, 2004 09:30 AM
Edited By: tigris on 6 Dec 2004

Quote:


3 Speed = 1500 movement points
4 Speed = 1560 movement points  
5 Speed = 1630 movement points  
6 Speed = 1700 movement points  
7 Speed = 1760 movement points  
8 Speed = 1830 movement points  
9 Speed = 1900 movement points  
10 Speed = 1960 movement points
>11 Speed = 2000 movement points


Ok i didnt't know about this earlier, that's why i've made some tables this weekend about this particular issues.Giving that they are mostly based on the manual i presume that they may be errors on them after checking this post.question:what is a movement point?
Actually i've made some testings too this week end and the result was that a hero with a 3 speed units will mowe 15 tiles the same as a hero with a unit with 4 speed.So this is very wierd to me, please explain!
here is the table with the speed repartition of all units :


i guess everybody knows the movement allowance given by the manual so i won't write that aswell as it is wrong from what i gather from xarfax's post.
here is a table that shows how the speed is distributed to each castle units(non upgraded units).The last colomn represent the sum of all speeds and shows a classament depending on speed.


and her i have done the same thing for upgraded
units
:


I hope this isn't entirely useless...

____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted December 06, 2004 11:17 AM

Quote:
....question:what is a movement point?
Actually i've made some testings too this week end and the result was that a hero with a 3 speed units will mowe 15 tiles the same as a hero with a unit with 4 speed.So this is very wierd to me, please explain!



You could get that info out of Xarfaxīs post, which i have translated here in this thread.

1 "step" of movement of a hero on gras "costs" 100 movementpoints.
With speed 3 u have 1500, with speed 4 u have 1560. But 60 movementpoints are NOT enough to make one more step, thatīs why u canīt move further..
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.1568 seconds