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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 22, 2008 01:23 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 13:25, 22 May 2008.
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The utmost difference here is that others see abortion as a termination of an individual and others see a termination of a process (that will lead into an individual). I take another bad analogy (are there any other kind  ) I am building a car, I have all the metal pieces there, the lines have been set to motion. But then I choose to terminate the process. There is a lot of metal now unused, wasted so to speak. But it would be absurd to accuse me of destroying a car. The metal only had potentiality of becoming one.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 22, 2008 01:28 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 13:29, 22 May 2008.
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Quote:
If you look at problem this way, you should see, that it should be parents who are deciding future life of fetus. It is mother who knows the best if fetus inside her is lovely future baby, or just "parasite", "trespasser" or whatever you want to call it. Do you want baby to be born at all costs?
I want people to mature up and expect the consequences of their actions. Being pregnant requires responsibility, and 'walking away' easy from it is not the solution. Why? People will do it because they can 'get away with it', so to speak. They should learn and wise up that they can't simply get away with it, others are involved, and they 'suffer' (metaphorically of course) because of their irresponsible actions.
I don't want a baby to be born without love, I want people to get mature and expect the consequences -- not just think "hey, i can get away with it, who cares?".
It's like you're asking me that I want criminals to go to jail. Nope, I want people to mature and see that you can't "get away with" crime so easily. I don't even want to go to the point where they go to jail. (this was of course, a metaphorical analogy btw!!).
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Having baby isnīt fun, it is one of the most important and serious decisions in life of person, and each child should be born into stable relationship.
Yes, it is no fun at all. But people don't treat it seriously you know, THAT's what I want to 'change'. They say "heh, I get pregnant, I abort it, no problemo" because they think they can get away with it 'easily', when in truth it's more than themselves that they need to think about. It's no fun like you said, and even less their irresponsible thinking.
My solution is actually not to even get pregnant if you don't want the baby. If people realize they can't get away so easily, they will take it more seriously.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 22, 2008 01:40 PM |
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Quote:
Yes, it is no fun at all. But people don't treat it seriously you know, THAT's what I want to 'change'. They say "heh, I get pregnant, I abort it, no problemo" because they think they can get away with it 'easily'
I think you have a distorted image of the woman who go through abortion. People don't treat it seriously? Well all the persons I know DO. It is not like "oh I got my nails polished and I got an abortion". Even if there are woman who shop at abortion centers, are there (unstable?) individuals a legitimate reason to punish everyone?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 22, 2008 01:47 PM |
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I don't know if 'punish' is the correct word though, but jails & laws are not only for "putting criminals" in, but also for reminding them to take the law seriously. Of course now we are not discussing about the law (and I wouldn't even like to anyway), but it's a similar analogy.
Even the women that take abortion seriously usually regret what they have done (to get pregnant obviously). They should think more clearly. I mean, if you regret what you have done afterwards, why have you done it? I'm not saying that they should raise the kid if they do not want, because it wouldn't be out of love. I'm saying that without having this 'easy choice' they will take it more seriously than they do now. They won't even get to the point of raising an unwanted child, if you know what I mean.
And with the car example, yes of course it would be a waste of metal & trash if you did not built it, and you just lost some money (supposedly you bought those parts). But of course the children are not bought, if you know what I mean. Let's suppose someone "else" delivered you the parts to build the car, and you abort it. How would that someone else feel? You had a responsibility for him 
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Anakrom
Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
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posted May 22, 2008 01:54 PM |
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Quote:
I don't want a baby to be born without love, I want people to get mature and expect the consequences -- not just think "hey, i can get away with it, who cares?".
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My solution is actually not to even get pregnant if you don't want the baby. If people realize they can't get away so easily, they will take it more seriously.
I get it, and your attitude is right. But there always be people who will be irresponsible and not mature enough. Especially if we are talking about abortion, which is connected with sex - these days are people usually sexually active since their 15ī - do you expect that sixteen year old person will be mature? Yeah, some are, but majority isnīt. So they will get drunk on party, have sex... and here you are. And tell them that they shouldnīt do it - it wonīt work anyway. Abortion helps in this cases - these people can have sex, but arenīt ready for consequences. And it would be sad to ruin future life of teen (education with baby seems as pretty tough choice) and possibly her family - she was simply too young and naive. Fortunately we have solution how to correct her "mistake". I would be nice to have world full of mature and responsible people, but impossible. Abortion still seems as better choice than overly hard punishment for young inexperienced person in form of burden for entire life.
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Result matters
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 22, 2008 01:58 PM |
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Quote:
Remember that when you decide to do abortion, you're not replacing an 'object' but rather something that will turn into a person.
I don't think you quite understood my analogy. A person made a mistake (got preganant/broke a window). That person has two options: to keep the fetus/broken window and "live with their mistake", or to fix the mistake and get an abortion/fix the window.
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You play basketball and you accidentally hit someone hard in the head. He/she may either be dead, or need medical care. Either way, you don't go to the shop to 'replace' them
That's not an accurate analogy, because if they're dead, there's nothing you can do, whereas if you're pregnant or broke a window, there is something you can do.
And what I was saying there was that making abortions illegal would not actually end abortions, just make them more dangerous.
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I want people to mature up and expect the consequences of their actions.
Abortion is hardly consequence-free. It can harm the health of the mother, and it has an emotional impact as well.
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I want people to get mature and expect the consequences -- not just think "hey, i can get away with it, who cares?".
I don't think that too many people think that. Abortion is only used as a last resort. No one thinks, "I can have unprotected sex and just get an abortion."
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Eccentric Opinion
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 22, 2008 02:16 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 14:17, 22 May 2008.
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Even the women that take abortion seriously usually regret what they have done (to get pregnant obviously). They should think more clearly. I mean, if you regret what you have done afterwards, why have you done it?
Of course they regret, because they have to go through a not so fun operation now.
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And with the car example, yes of course it would be a waste of metal & trash if you did not built it, and you just lost some money (supposedly you bought those parts). But of course the children are not bought, if you know what I mean. Let's suppose someone "else" delivered you the parts to build the car, and you abort it. How would that someone else feel? You had a responsibility for him
As for this one... I must say I do not know who this "else" is here. If you are talking about the fetus, then you didn't understand my introduction part to the analogy. I'd be happy if you commented on that.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 22, 2008 02:18 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 14:21, 22 May 2008.
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I don't think you quite understood my analogy. A person made a mistake (got preganant/broke a window). That person has two options: to keep the fetus/broken window and "live with their mistake", or to fix the mistake and get an abortion/fix the window.
Would you consider an accident that ends someone's life a simple 'mistake' that can be fixed as well? The problem is, with the window, you're not talking only about "yourself" (or your personal stuff), but someone else (the fetus), which is 'someone' or will be someone, unlike the window.
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That's not an accurate analogy, because if they're dead, there's nothing you can do, whereas if you're pregnant or broke a window, there is something you can do.
So if I go drunk on the wheel and hit someone, will I simply say "hey, accidents happen, so what?"..
There is something you can do when you're pregnant, but it's something that involves someone else, that's why I don't like the analogy with the window. It's like getting in the car and driving while drunk -- you pretty much know beforehand that you'll most likely end up affecting someone else (affect = kill or injure or whatever else).
It's like saying: "Hey I have made a mistake and released all animals from zoo, and a tiger was almost going to kill me, so I killed him". You see, there's something you can do, i.e kill it, but are you supposed to call that an accident?? You are killing that animal, because of your own mistake. Hence, there is something you can do, that WILL AFFECT someone else in a negative way, and it is your fault. i.e in politics speak: "you are the aggressor, and still you are the one who is more 'right' to kill".
EDIT: or put it differently, let's say that you go into a bear's cave, and the bear wants to protect his home, so he attacks you. Is it "right" for you to kill him because he endangers you? I think the "I made a mistake, I went into his cave, so I had to kill him" is purely stupid. He suffered because of your well-known mistake. IMO you should be the one who suffers in this situation, because YOU made the mistake (suffer does not necessarily mean being killed ofcourse). You were irresponsible to go into his cave. Now replace the 'bear' with a human if you take bears less 'important'
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And what I was saying there was that making abortions illegal would not actually end abortions, just make them more dangerous.
Hmm, making drugs illegal makes people still take them, to a certain degree, so you're right, but it is 'harder' and the law discourages them. (but of course most drugs have no impact on someone else unlike the abortion).
also btw I hate to talk about laws and such, and never wanted to head into this direction
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 22, 2008 02:27 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 14:27, 22 May 2008.
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@Minion:Quote:
Of course they regret, because they have to go through a not so fun operation now.
Is that the only thing they regret? That they have to go through a not-so-fun operation? Not even the slightest regret about the fetus or the irresponsible action they did knowingly?
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As for this one... I must say I do not know who this "else" is here. If you are talking about the fetus, then you didn't understand my introduction part to the analogy. I'd be happy if you commented on that.
Let's say John delivers you the pieces (he wasted a lot of money for them). He trusts you to complete the car (so his effort would not be in vain). You decide to abort. The thing is, that this decision affects someone else, i.e John.
As for the fetus, maybe he wants to live, maybe you just destroyed his only life before he even maybe got one (Because implicitly he would have had a life later, so you practically destroyed it/prevented it). It's like destroying the Earth before life existed -- that will eventually eliminate all life that will later exist (e.g us) so I doubt it would be a good 'moral' decision.
Note again that I do not expect the child to be born without the mother wanting him/her. But if she does not want him/her, then she should prevent THE ACTION that makes this happen, not stop the process after it started. I.e stopping a criminal is more efficient if you do it before he kills anybody, not after (nothing to do with criminal, it was only an analogy).
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 22, 2008 02:35 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 14:39, 22 May 2008.
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Is that the only thing they regret? That they have to go through a not-so-fun operation? Not even the slightest regret about the fetus or the irresponsible action they did knowingly?
I am not the person to say how thay feel. If you are inclining that most women actually would have wanted the baby after all, but realized that only after the abortion, then I am going to need some evidence for that.
I can't comment your "maybe the fetus wants to live"-theorem really, what do I know what it wants. Maybe all it wanted was to die, but you forced him to come to this earth
The obvious difference here is that you give the fetus a persons status - it feels, acts and is like a person, or atleast you create that image of the fetus all the time. I can't deny that it is a potential life form. But so is sperm, what is jerking off then, a genocide?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 22, 2008 02:42 PM |
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Quote:
The obvious difference here is of course that you think the fetus feels and acts and is like a person, or atleast you create that image of the fetus all the time. I can't deny that it is a potential life form. But so is sperm, what is jerking off then, a genocide?
He may not feel 'yet' like a person, but he will.
Here's a weird analogy (considering the fetus is not alive):
Let's suppose you are a magician. Now, some kind of 'seer' tells you that a rock will affect the future and life will be created, somehow, because of this rock, if created in the proper place. You, having fun with your spells, create this very rock (but you don't want the life it brings later on). You can destroy the rock, since it doesn't have any life, but the consequence is that the life it will follow will also be destroyed before it even got a chance to be created, if you get what I mean.
Now the problem wouldn't be yours at all, if you didn't create the rock. Unfortunately you did, now the 'life' that would have been created can blame you for that. If you wouldn't have created the rock at all you had no problem. Now however, you just decided to have some fun, and you have the rock.
Of course let's also keep in mind that the fetus might have some very basic 'feelings' or life, unlike the rock.
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Anakrom
Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
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posted May 22, 2008 03:16 PM |
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Death, so your opinion is "Iīm against abortion, because people should learn to pay for their mistakes and irresponsibility, and fetus may be living being"?
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Result matters
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 22, 2008 03:23 PM |
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Death, so your opinion is "Iīm against abortion, because people should learn to pay for their mistakes and irresponsibility, and fetus may be living being"?
Something like that, though of course I would not want to even get into such a scenario. When people make laws (again example with laws, sorry ) that forbid stealing for example, they essentially 'discourage' it as well. It's not because they like to see others go to jail. It's because they want to PREVENT that from happening (because then the burglars will think twice). Of course this does not prevent it 100%, but it does to a certain extent. (of course the law-example is not a perfect analogy so please don't take it like that).
This 'irresponsibility' is quite huge, because it affects other people as well, not only yourself (like in personal objects for example).
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted May 22, 2008 04:33 PM |
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While I agree with you on your opinion about responsibility and paying for it, TheDeath, I as well feel exceptions should be made for cases like rape, or deception.
However, while I agree people should pay for being irresponsible, at the same time, I don't feel it is my place to tell others they CAN'T have an abortion. It is not my body - it is not my choice I should make for them.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 22, 2008 08:56 PM |
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Would you consider an accident that ends someone's life a simple 'mistake' that can be fixed as well?
No, because death is irreversible.
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It's like saying: "Hey I have made a mistake and released all animals from zoo, and a tiger was almost going to kill me, so I killed him".
No, it's more like saying "Hey, I made a mistake and released all the animals from the zoo, but I put them back."
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Is it "right" for you to kill him because he endangers you?
No, but this is a really bad analogy.
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it is 'harder' and the law discourages them
It is also more dangerous. It could abort the fetus and kill the mother.
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Let's suppose you are a magician. Now, some kind of 'seer' tells you that a rock will affect the future and life will be created, somehow, because of this rock, if created in the proper place. You, having fun with your spells, create this very rock (but you don't want the life it brings later on). You can destroy the rock, since it doesn't have any life, but the consequence is that the life it will follow will also be destroyed before it even got a chance to be created, if you get what I mean.
If you think about it that way, then think about this:
1. Most sperm do not fertilize an egg. Think about all the potential life that is never created.
2. Most eggs are not fertilized. Thinnk about all the potential life that is never created.
If men went around and impregnanted every woman (let's assume willingly), and they wouldn't get abortions, yes, there would be a lot more life. But would it be better if they did that? Perhaps it's better to prevent life in certain cases.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted May 23, 2008 06:51 PM |
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Pro-life = Anti-woman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrXvDXVhqfU&feature=related
By the way, by saying clogs of cells are living entities, by that logic SPERMCELLS are living entities as well, meaning I am kind of responsible for the murder of kazillions of lives daily.
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted May 23, 2008 09:06 PM |
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Death by suffocation caused by KY Jelly products.....
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted May 24, 2008 11:53 AM |
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George Carlin does make alot of good points.
"The 7 days before pregnanacy, 80% of these are flushed out once a month"
Soo......... he does make some very decent stances upon the themes.
However this guy is a comedian, he drags in everything to complete the joke. Just see the "Feminist Blowjob".
Heck.......... tecnicaly this discussion will not stop due everybody got a difference stance.
Lets do a theme classification:
1: People against abortion because it kill potencial life
2: Male-Sexist against abortion(few i guess)
3: Religius people
4: Females wanting to have controll over their body.
5: People that don't think abortion is killing
6: Liberals
7: People who is against a pregnancy THAT ruins a life
8: People against what metods will be used if abortion is banned
I think i belong to group 7 here........
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted May 24, 2008 12:21 PM |
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 24, 2008 04:45 PM |
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No, because death is irreversible.
Hence you can't restore the would-be (future) life of the fetus
That's the difference between an ordinary 'cell': this cell was going to grow into a person.. not a slave that you can "give life and take it as well".
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If you think about it that way, then think about this:
1. Most sperm do not fertilize an egg. Think about all the potential life that is never created.
2. Most eggs are not fertilized. Thinnk about all the potential life that is never created.
I never said that the 'potential' life is important. I only said, if your actions (which are based on negligence) will bring some 'potential' life, and then you don't want that, and destroy it.. it's plain wrong, it's not like "hey, I gave it life, I can take it as well" because it's not your slave, if you know what I mean
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If men went around and impregnanted every woman (let's assume willingly), and they wouldn't get abortions, yes, there would be a lot more life. But would it be better if they did that? Perhaps it's better to prevent life in certain cases.
Who said men shouldn't be responsible?
And no of course I never meant "I want more life".. It's not like I want people to get into the "I can't abort" stage, I want TO PREVENT that from happening as much as possible. If they think they can get away with it, they will not take it as seriously as if they can't.. it's not like I want more babies to be born (than people want). But if they don't want, then why do they get pregnant? Irresponsible accident?? this is the thing I want to prevent (so to speak) 
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Pro-life = Anti-woman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrXvDXVhqfU&feature=related
This doesn't really say anything about what I have in mind. And by the way, I never said men should not be responsible. (hence why exceptions like rape, etc... are hard for me to figure out how to deal with)
My point was, if you get pregnant without being forced, then it also means you want and have to keep the baby. I guess we all learn by mistakes, but taking a life is actually much more than a 'mistake' if you ask me.
(again, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying more life should exist, I'm only saying it's a bit too late to 'give life by accident' and then 'take it'. I want to prevent the former situation )
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