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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Heroes 3 Town Rating -INFERNO-
Thread: Heroes 3 Town Rating -INFERNO- This thread is 10 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT»
Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted August 25, 2012 06:14 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 18:23, 25 Aug 2012.

It is a pity some people look only at stats on paper without considering unique abilities. Depending on map archdevils can be outstanding, no retaliation combined with mass slow and spirit of oppression can make you win battles you could not even dream with other towns.

And once you get force field, you will have full protection, one hex size makes them unreachable behind. Also frenzy can be used without any downside, along with hydras.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted August 25, 2012 06:28 PM

Especially when battles happens in huge numbers, where spells like resurrection and implosion becomes next to useless, I find that Arch Devils are better than most other level 7's because of their low hit points.
E.g. you can resurrect 50% more Arch Devils than Ancient Behemoths or Titans using sacrifice, and sacrifice, I find, is pretty much always a useful spell.

The efreeti sultans have been mentioned a lot for their fire shield. The fire shield is annoying, when you fight against Sultans and have a much more powerful army, because it can mean unnecessary casualty. I only find the fire shield a minor bonus on the creature though. No the high speed and fire immunity is what I really like about this creature. Immunity against blind and the fastest level 6 unit means you've an advantage in the "waiting game", I believe.
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Titowam
Titowam


Hired Hero
posted August 25, 2012 07:37 PM

Quote:
It is a pity some people look only at stats on paper without considering unique abilities. Depending on map archdevils can be outstanding, no retaliation combined with mass slow and spirit of oppression can make you win battles you could not even dream with other towns.

And once you get force field, you will have full protection, one hex size makes them unreachable behind. Also frenzy can be used without any downside, along with hydras.


I've never really used Forcefield (same with Land Mines, Quick Sand, Frenzy, Berserk, Bloodlust, Curse etc) so... yeah..
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Titowam
Titowam


Hired Hero
posted September 08, 2012 01:09 PM

Quote:
Quote:
I've never really used Forcefield (same with Land Mines, Quick Sand, Frenzy, Berserk, Bloodlust, Curse etc) so... yeah..


They're not really needed per se, but they're awesome spells. Not all in obvious ways, but Berserk and Frenzy should be obvious. Berserk allows for the opponent to destroy himself, especially funny against Stronghold and Frenzy allows for maximum damage possible (attackers attack >= 60 + defenders defense).

You can see in the heroes 3 tactics thread to see how you can with relative few creatures take down an utopia in week 2 using force field.

Quick sand is incredible powerful if you get a lot of rounds in a fight, because it can basicly neutralize walkers, without taking up casting.

I believe land mines is the spell which deals most damage / power.

I think I read in a thread that curse on certain level 1 and 2 monsters means they deal almost no damage, because their minimum damage is already 1, and curse means minimum damage - 1, but I haven't tested this myself. I couldn't find the thread now.

Bloodlust... well it's better than slayer in my opinion.


Isnt Titans Lightning Bolt (the spell that deals 600) one of the strongest ones? And Armageddon with Expert Fire Magic / Armageddons Blade... 8D

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KingCrimson
KingCrimson


Hired Hero
posted September 10, 2012 02:47 AM

Inferno is a tough town to evaluate, as most of their strengths are tactical. This means that if you don't know what you're doing, they can be devilishly hard to use (no pun intended). Still, in the right hands and on the right map, they can be devastating.

I just want to say that I agree 110% with all the posts saying you can't judge a unit entirely based on its stats or how it does 1v1 against other creatures of its level. There are all sorts of different factors to take into consideration.

I like to play Inferno like this:

Two heroes, one might, one magic. Might hero is main hero. I'll usually give this hero Imps, Gogs, Demons and Pit Lords. This is my demon farm hero and is the bulk of my forces. Goes around collecting creatures (including Imps and Gogs) and turning them into Demons.

Magic hero is support hero and a scout and I'll usually give him Cerberi and Efreet. The idea is fast-moving hero who relies half on troops, half on magic to nab resources, dwellings, artifacts, etc, that are a bit far from home. Once devils become available, I'll often pawn the doggies off to Might hero above and take devils on instead.

Depending on map, I might add a third hero. If Armageddon is available, or if there are tough fights that Devils might be able to take down themselves, I'll leave the Efreet with Magic hero and slap Devils on a third hero.

Tough decision, for me, is always whether Cerbs are worth farming into demons or not. I guess it depends on how many other creatures are available.


So I think Inferno's strength, overall, is very map-dependent. On big maps, Inferno dominates due to Demon farming (potentially better than Necromancy, though it'd be rare to see it reach that potential, I would think... Would need Grail building for unlimited Month of the Imp, at least) and larger numbers lessening the Devil's main weakness (no spell immunity - as pointed out above, Implosion is a lot less devastating against 500 Devils than it is against 5).

However, I would say that their fairly costly level 7 dwelling and the relatively weak power of their troops makes them a struggle to win with on small, quick maps.

Special buildings:

Order of Fire: Nice bonus, nothing essential. If you have resources to spare on it, it's basically half a free level. If not, it's no great loss

Brimstone Stormclouds: Questionable. The only real advantage they offer is that they make it easier to fend off scouts with only a Magic hero and minimal force in the garrison. But that's situational at best, and at the cost of 5 precious sulfur...

Castle Gate: Obviously incredible. Well, map-dependent, I suppose, but  if you've more than one Inferno town, this building is indispensable.

Two horde buildings is a nice boost. Inferno's one of only two towns to get that treatment. More Demons, if nothing else.

Mage Guild is decent, nothing to write home about. Great odds for Blind is nice, as is having a shot at Armageddon, but crappy odds for Haste is a pain.


As for heroes, Heretics are okay. Demoniacs are fantastic heroes, with skills like Logistics, Armorer and Offense being all but assured.


Creatures:

Imps: Crap. I literally cannot find a use for these guys other than Demon fodder

Gogs: I'm a huge fan of lvl 2 shooters as they allow for early and effective creeping. That being said, I'd take Archers and Lizards over Gogs. And after the early game, Gogs aren't really good for much more than, again, Demon fodder. If you do manage to keep them alive, Magogs work well with Efreeti, but that's about their only use.

Hell Hounds: Once upgraded, they make great shock troops. Unfortunately, the upgrade's a little expensive (5 sulfur, which is what you'd need for Pit Lords...) and as no later unit requires them, they're a bit out of the way.

Demons: The backbone of your army. Useless on their own, dedicated demon farming can yield fantastic results. Upgrade is utterly meaningless.

Pit Fiends: If Demons are the backbone of your army, Pit Lords are the heart - so upgrade those Pit Fiends as soon as is humanly possible! Unfortunately, 5 merc, 5 sulfur and Mage's Guild 2 often means it's a choice between either these guys or Cerbs for week 1. But faster Pit Lords means more demon-raising, so get cracking! If you're not planning on farming demons (i.e. if you're looking at a game that will be over within a week or two), then give Pit Lords a miss, as they're otherwise unremarkable. Instead, head right on to:

Efreet: An essential part of the Inferno army. Fire spell immunity means Armageddons and Magogs a plenty without fear, and the high speed is a necessary part of a balanced army. The upgrade is, again, virtually essential, although in this case Efreeti on their own are still worthwhile.

Devils: Debates still rage about their usefulness. In a skilled tactician's hands, their high speed and No Enemy Retaliation is absolutely wonderful. But mediocre stats, no magic immunity and abysmal costs push them to the lower echelons of level 7s.

We're looking at 40 mercury total to build the Upg. Forbidden Palace. That's NOT counting the 17 mercury you probably already spent upgrading your Pit Fiends and Efreet, nor the amount of mercury you'll spend actually recruiting Devils. Not the most expensive level 7s, but certainly near the top.

And upgrade them you will, because Devils themselves, with only 11 speed, aren't really all that tempting. My advice is to get the Forbidden Palace and Castle as soon as you can afford, then just let Devils accumulate until you can afford the upgrade (and pray fervently that Month of the Plague never shows up!)


Overall, I find Inferno's creatures to be a bit lacking in "ooomph" and a bit too reliant on (expensive) upgrades to be my favourites. But in the hands of a skilled player, they can utterly devastate. As others have said, what makes Inferno really powerful is not their stats but their tactical possibilities. Exploit those and find victory - ignore them at your peril.


One final note, I would recommend the first mission in the Dungeons and Devils campaign (RoE) as a great place to hone your demon-farming skills. As you're basically playing against the map with all the time in the world and a few Ramparts and Castles available, it's a good way to experiment - should you horde creatures before raising them as demons, or do it as they come? Are Cerberi worth killing and raising as demons? Etc.
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fockewulf
fockewulf

Tavern Dweller
posted September 10, 2012 03:15 PM
Edited by fockewulf at 15:18, 10 Sep 2012.

Devils are very good units against neutrals.
1 devil under a weak hero without any magic can crash the maximal dwarven treasury, is it so with a horde of any slow creatures.
But the advantages of Inferno are:
1. Demonology;
2. Comfortable playing on XL+U templates;
3. Demoniacs are the heroes class which have very good tree of skills.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 10, 2012 03:25 PM

What is demonology?
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted September 10, 2012 03:47 PM

Demon farming

Demonology is a term from heroes 4, a specific combination of skills which generated a class that could summon different kinds of demons, but it's typical of a h3 vet to not know anything about heroes 4.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted September 10, 2012 08:39 PM

Quote:
If you do manage to keep them alive, Magogs work well with Efreeti, but that's about their only use.

Unfortunately, 5 merc, 5 sulfur and Mage's Guild 2 often means it's a choice between either these guys or Cerbs for week 1.

Devils: [...] But mediocre stats, no magic immunity and abysmal costs push them to the lower echelons of level 7s.



Nice post

Some comments. I don't think efreeti are immune to magog's fire attack. I usually go for devils and castle week 1, pit lords at the start of week 2. Devils don't have medicore stats. They beat everything apart from Angels in the level 7 category if we compare them in power, unit for unit. This is mainly because of their speed and no enemy retaliation.

They do suffer from implosion, but it also means they're easier to resurrect, and they work especially well with sacrifice.

Unupgraded devils are still worthwhile for clearing the map. Efreeti Sultans are already awesome at this and with unupg. devils you can divide and conquer even faster.
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KingCrimson
KingCrimson


Hired Hero
posted September 11, 2012 06:22 AM

Quote:
Quote:
If you do manage to keep them alive, Magogs work well with Efreeti, but that's about their only use.

Unfortunately, 5 merc, 5 sulfur and Mage's Guild 2 often means it's a choice between either these guys or Cerbs for week 1.

Devils: [...] But mediocre stats, no magic immunity and abysmal costs push them to the lower echelons of level 7s.



Nice post

Some comments. I don't think efreeti are immune to magog's fire attack. I usually go for devils and castle week 1, pit lords at the start of week 2. Devils don't have medicore stats. They beat everything apart from Angels in the level 7 category if we compare them in power, unit for unit. This is mainly because of their speed and no enemy retaliation.

They do suffer from implosion, but it also means they're easier to resurrect, and they work especially well with sacrifice.

Unupgraded devils are still worthwhile for clearing the map. Efreeti Sultans are already awesome at this and with unupg. devils you can divide and conquer even faster.



Huh, I'd never actually tried the Magog/Efreeti thing as I always farm my Gogs. It was pure theorycrafting.

I suppose I should have clarified: When I said mediocre stats for Devils, what I really meant was crappy HP. I like having beefy HP on my level 7s as especially early on, losing one can dramatically impact your army's power. Plus they're expensive to replace. But, others have argued that low HP = more benefit from Resurrection, and I'll not argue with that.


Devils in week 1 can be really handy but how feasible that is depends on the map and difficulty.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 11, 2012 06:33 AM

There is "quote" and there is "reply" button. Just imagine how would look a thread where everybody quotes the post right above, which quoted the previous and so on until main post.
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted September 11, 2012 06:35 AM

160 HP isn't that low, considering that the Devils have the highest Defense of all unupgraded level 7s. Giants have 150, Behemoths - 160, Bone Dragons - 150 (not mentioning the Firebirds for obvious reasons) and none of them is even remotely as useful for creeping as the Devils (same applies to most of the remaining level 7s actually).
As for the Magog/Efreet thing - the Magog's fireball isn't considered "fire" like the Fireball spell so it damages the Efreeti as well as the rest of the immune creatures when it explodes.

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angelito
angelito

Hero of Order
proud father of a princess
posted September 11, 2012 03:34 PM

Quote:
I suppose I should have clarified: When I said mediocre stats for Devils, what I really meant was crappy HP. I like having beefy HP on my level 7s as especially early on..
If you do not suffer retaliation, you don't need the same amount of hitpoints as other units, because you get hitten lesser..
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 11, 2012 03:58 PM

Why do I read "bite points" all the time now, when I see the word "hit points"?

Ah, nothing like Grammar being putten to creative use, I suppose.

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c0ldshadow
c0ldshadow


Known Hero
666 Demons Rise from the Dead
posted September 12, 2012 02:44 AM

good point by angelito regarding the no need for more HP since no retaliation against the arch devils.

additionally, arch devils have 28 defense which is excellent.

in my opinion the only frustrating problem with arch devils is lack of magic immunity.

but all in all i would say that inferno is the biggest threat to collect powerful artifacts early due to being able to beat huge amounts of creatures by out waiting them.  good arts usually = good atk+good def + spells, which is key to winning.  ADs + mass slow vs wandering creatures is unfair.


one thing that always pissed me off is that arch angels are faster than AD.   ADs teleport so i just don't find it logical that they are slower.. how can teleporting be slower than flying?




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Only4Dungeon
Only4Dungeon


Adventuring Hero
posted September 12, 2012 08:38 PM

Quote:
Goes around collecting creatures (including Imps and Gogs) and turning them into Demons.



How is this possible ? I've personally never heard of it.

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Star_King
Star_King


Known Hero
posted September 13, 2012 05:11 AM

Go into fights against neutral creatures, get your Imps/Gogs/other fodder killed on purpose, and raise them as Demons using the Pit Lords' ability. You get to keep the Demons, so even though Demons are weak level 4 creatures statistically you can get huge numbers of them and make them dangerous. Some math is involved to maximize efficiency of sacrificing.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 13, 2012 09:39 AM
Edited by JollyJoker at 09:40, 13 Sep 2012.

Quoting from a very old strategy paper of mine:

Quote:
The special ability of the Pit Lords is not easy to use. To resurrect with them, the stack must have been completely killed... Pit Lords resurrect HIT POINT-WISE, meaning they resurrect dead HIT POINTS as Demons, so after the resurrection you can't have more HPs than before. This means, 9 killed Familiars will resurrect to 1 Demon, which is not very impressive. Once you have Pit Lords in your force, you are well advised to organize your Familiars in stacks of numbers with multiples of 9, say 27. If you have free slots in your army, consider two stacks of Familiars. One stack should be a "sacrifice stack", with which to attack and take losses, so your Pit Lords are able to resurrect. If you do that, be sure the sacrifice stack gets wiped out, because if only 1 Familiar survives, your effort was wasted (and the Familiars are dead). This requires a lot of planning ahead, because you need a realistic view on how many losses the enemy will inflict to you in terms of Familiars, so you can built a sacrifice stack with the right quantity.
Another thing to keep in mind is the following: If you are in a battle that takes a more heavy toll and you lose some of your more important units like Efreetis or Devils, consider "kamikaze attacks" if only a few will survive to resurrect them as Demons and get the Hit Points back. For instance: Unfortunately a hard battle cost you 3 of your 4 Efreets. You should now try to lose the last Efreet, too,  and then resurrect the whole stack. 4 Efreeti will be resurrected back to 10 Demons (if you have at least 10 Pit Lords and not resurrected before in this battle), so you will cut your losses on the HP front. If this ain't possible in rare situations there might be a chance to kill off one of your own stacks completely with the area effect of your Magogs. This is not easy to do, because the Pit Lords have to have a turn after your Magogs got their shot, and the enemy must not flee or be completely eliminated before the Pit Lords get their turn. So be careful here.
Any resurrection gives you cheap HPs for expensive ones, with one exception: If a stack of Demons dies, you can resurrect it without money losses, but this won't happen too often...

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Conan_dw
Conan_dw


Hired Hero
posted September 13, 2012 09:54 AM

This is wrong, u could only raise as much demons as u had "sacrified" fodder.

4 efreets will become 4 demons, as will 4 titans.

and the desription is lacking of one further point: every pit lord could only raise 1,3 demons in maximum. this means, if u have 700 hp in the fodder stack, but less than 15 pits, u couldnt raise 20 demons and are waisting fodder.

this, together with the facts u are right in makes good farming without any loss of time(!) a very tricky thing :-)

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 13, 2012 10:10 AM

Quote:
4 Efreeti will be resurrected back to 10 Demons


Mathematically is right, but the game will not agree.
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