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| Thread: Stop 1337ism! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 08, 2006 02:29 AM |
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Stop 1337ism!
Lately, I've been noticing a lot of elitism among certain Library members. A friendly discussion starts, for example, thus:
Quote:
Post your opinions on the strongest factions in HOMM3 and how they compare with the factions you prefer to play. If both your versions are the same please say so.
My own versions of the lists were mostly drawn from experience against AI on L and XL maps.
This started an argument, because the elitists have a low opinion of people whose experience extends to single-player. However, they say things similar to, "N00b, you'd better play multi or shut up. SP teaches you nothing but how to beat the AI. You're not that great just because you can beat the AI. Anyone can beat the AI." A flamefest starts. The elitist starts to use insults. The "n00b" realizes that the elitists are "stuck up". Then they realize, finally, that it is beyond a difference of opinion, that it is a flame war. And what happens? The "n00b" tries to stop it, but the elitist says:
Quote:
IMHO his [the "n00b"'s] opinions are, as i said before, common to the average newbie. This kind of posts don't really fit the Library atmosphere(also IMHO).
This is basically saying, "Get out of here, n00b. We hate n00bs."
Val gets involved, penalizing the elitist. This instantly turns into an "abuse of power" scandal.
PEOPLE, YOU NEED TO REALIZE THAT THIS HAS ALREADY HAPPENED! SIR_STIVEN GOT BANNED FOR SUCH ACTIONS! DON'T GO BY HIS WAY!
It's like watching a bunch of lemmings. One walks into the water and drowns. The others follow it, and drown also. PEOPLE ARE NOT LEMMINGS! STOP ACTING LIKE THEM! The great advantage of humans above animals is that humans can learn by insight, whereas most animals learn by trial and error (if at all) ; this is the way that humans learn mathematics. They can also apply learning not to do what hurts themselves. In the lemming case, trial and error wouldn't help, because they are dead. Or are these elitists masochistic?
Now, I'm not pressuring for this elitist to be banned, but, I am saying that this needs to stop. HC is not in the best of condition. A lot of people left, and not as many people joined and became active. These elitists are driving potential active members away, and I'm tired of it. I understand this elist's need to improve HC by not having what he considers "bad advice" on it, but if it means driving away potenial contributors of the community, is it really worth it? What if some elitist drove away Consis before he became a good member? What about Jebus? Guitarguy (elitists actually tried to drive him away)? Mighty_Mage? Regnus_Khan? Shadowcaster? RSF? What if someone drove this elitist away before he became an elistist? HC would be very different, and not for the better.
The Library is not a cult. It's not a convert-or-die sort of thing. Everyone is entilted to their own opinion and everyone can discuss this WITHOUT FLAMES.
Oh, yeah, by the way, I also play single-player only. I also have my own opinions. And if you say that SP teaches nothing, it has taught me this: 1000 Azure dragons always beat 1 peasant  .
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Eccentric Opinion
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted March 08, 2006 05:45 AM |
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What are you talking about.
First of all we all been there.
We were all new at one time, we know what were talking about, we are teaching them not driving them away.
If you have any balls then you wouldnt run & cry to momma because of a tiny incident.
Stiven was one of few who drove many new people on here out of HC & was disliked by many mods.
He was asking for it for a very long time.
Just that some former mods like Romana & KittenAngel took vendettas so personal that it caused Kittenangel to get fired from being Mod & Romana to quit because she made a dumb decision.
ROmana would find any way possible to give Stiven a -QP until he was banned.
Knowing Kittenangel I can say she hated Andiangelslayer so much that she was on an actual quest to ban him & what she did to Motor & Andi in MAH was just rediculasly BS.
Motor had many ideas & she sole them for herself so she can get the credit.
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted March 08, 2006 05:47 AM |
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Learn to STAND > learn to WALK > learn to RUN > TRAIN > try the OLYMPICS
In THAT order.
To my despise the original "flamefest" was deleted before I had a chance to read it and forge myself an opinion on it.
However, I've read the whole "cleaned" thread in its entirety. Most of the debate / conflict here is so familiar that I barely believe it's STILL not settled.
It's neither specific to this thread, nor to the Library, nor to HC, nor to Heroes, nor even to video games... ****, it's not even specific to games !!!
It's a common rule in LIFE !
When you are the ONLY, you will ALWAYS also be the BEST.
If the only survivor after the Apocalypse is a BLIND, that will NOT keep him/her from having the BEST sight in the world !
In my most humble opinion, there is no such thing as "Single Players". That would imply that there are specific skills or tactics required for playing against the AI. Ones that said "single players" would have developed more and better than "Online Players", since they have more "experience" because they play exclusively by themselves vs the computer...
Truth be said, the other way around is absolutely true, but it doesn't work both ways.
It IS MATHEMATICAL :
For ANY "single player", the BEST opponent they EVER faced was an AI.
Because what defines them is that they play ONLY the AI.
For ANY "online player" with an AVERAGE level of experience, the AI is a mere nuisance.
Because they ROUTINELY defeat the AI in ANY game they play ("fighting the map"). And that's far from being a difficulty for them.
Let's do the maths good and proper :
IF A > B and B > C THEN A > C !
You want proof ? Be my guest ! Put any number of good "online players", give them the "Hall of Fame" of the BEST "single player" and ask them to play some games "solo style" and surpass his/her results.
Mathematically, if the MORE you ever did is the LESS someone else can do, then that person is a LOT more skilled than you.
INTELLIGENCE, that's the difference between HUMANS and AI ! Isn't that obvious ?!
The AI can't adapt. It plays exactly the same ALWAYS.
Whatever technique that fools the AI ONCE will fool it FOREVER. So, after many games against the AI, you will know EXACTLY what will and what won't work against it.
There are no suprises.
And again that is true for just ANY game, not just Heroes !
For instance, try that little game. It's a table tennis fairly simple game. When I'm bored and don't have enough time to play Heroes, I find it relaxing to play that ping pong game.
There are 3 AI players available. It's been a long time since ANY of them has scored even ONE point against me. So, I'd assume that I was HOT STUFF in that game.
Truth is I didn't even know what that game was all about. Until I tried it against fellow HUMANS. The first game I've played online, I tried all my socalled witty AI-fooling techniques... to NO EFFECT AT ALL.
I got my **** kicked 10 times in a row ! 
Because :
HUMANS CAN AND WILL ADAPT. That's what DEFINES them !
Whatever technique that fools a human player once won't work as well the second time you try it. Because the human has a MEMORY and a BRAIN. So, chances are if the guy you fooled once with a particular trick fights you again... He will be AWARE of that trick.
BECAUSE, just like YOU said, mvassilev rightfully stated :
HUMANS > ANIMALS > MACHINES !
So, when you are actually capable of defeating HUMANS (the TOUGHEST kind of opponent you could possibly get, obviously, just like YOU, again, brillantly demonstrated), wouldn't you agree that it's actually more than likely that MACHINES (the WEAKEST kind of opponent you can get out of the 3) won't ever be a match for you ? 
Legendary Period. 
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LM    
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 08, 2006 01:43 PM |
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Aculias:
Quote:
IMHO his [the "n00b"'s] opinions are, as i said before, common to the average newbie. This kind of posts don't really fit the Library atmosphere(also IMHO).
Tigris said this. This is simply a "go away" message.
LegendMaker:
Quote:
That would imply that there are specific skills or tactics required for playing against the AI. Ones that said "single players" would have developed more and better than "Online Players", since they have more "experience" because they play exclusively by themselves vs the computer...
There are. It's called exploits.
And I'm not saying that an SPer is better than an MPer. Far from it. I'm just saying that SPers are still people who have their own opinions. Their tactics may not be the best for MP, but that's no reason to flame them.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 08, 2006 05:24 PM |
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Edited by Russ on 8 Mar 2006
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Quote:
Lately, I've been noticing a lot of elitism among certain Library members. A friendly discussion starts, for example, thus:
Quote:
Post your opinions on the strongest factions in HOMM3 and how they compare with the factions you prefer to play. If both your versions are the same please say so.
My own versions of the lists were mostly drawn from experience against AI on L and XL maps.
Please, GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU START POSTING. Thank you. You've looked ONCE in the library and you quoted something from FoG's post in its 100-th edition. Of couse, FoG polished his original post to make him look like an innocent victim of the antisocial f** tigris. If you've read the original posts made by your "friendly discussion starters", you'd notice that they rarely say things like "I am new and I am not quite sure how this game is played. I think that this is how it is: ..., please correct me if I am wrong and give me some advices". If they did so, they would most likely get positive feedback because people who post in the library (and that includes tigris) would do their best to help a newbie out. HOWEVER, what they do post sounds more like "I've played this game for 5 days and now I've come here to tell you all how this game should be played: .... (insert a bunch of nonsense here)" Most of them does not bother to read the other threads that discuss the topic, even if it is right there on the first page of the library, they don't put any effort into verifying what they say, yet they think that they know 10x more than all of us combined. That is what annoys most of us, NOT the fact that someone is new and looking for help. I doubt that you or Val will ever read and make an effort to understand this post, so feel free to continue your bashing of tigris and the other players who spent so much time contributing useful information to the library.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 08, 2006 05:54 PM |
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Quote:
If you've read the original posts made by your "friendly discussion starters", you'd notice that they rarely say things like "I am new and I am not quite sure how this game is played. I think that this is how it is: ..., please correct me if I am wrong and give me some advices".
That should be inferred. And I admit some of them may not mean that, but they are new players who deserve to be treated with respect. Of course they wouldn't know how to play well! They play against the AI and AI only. But they're still people and members of HC.
Quote:
HOWEVER, what they do post sounds more like "I've played this game for 5 days and now I've come here to tell you all how this game should be played: .... (insert a bunch of nonsense here)"
I have yet to see this.
Quote:
Most of them does not bother to read the other threads that discuss the topic, even if it is right there on the first page of the library, they don't put any effort into verifying what they say, yet they think that they know 10x more than all of us combined.
Is it too hard to post a link to the thread? Or maybe just prove the "n00b" wrong using logical arguments?
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Eccentric Opinion
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Russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted March 08, 2006 06:38 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
HOWEVER, what they do post sounds more like "I've played this game for 5 days and now I've come here to tell you all how this game should be played: .... (insert a bunch of nonsense here)"
I have yet to see this.
You don't understand the meaning of "sounds like"? Because I, personally, have yet to see this:Quote:
"Get out of here, n00b. We hate n00bs."
Quote:
Quote:
Most of them does not bother to read the other threads that discuss the topic, even if it is right there on the first page of the library, they don't put any effort into verifying what they say, yet they think that they know 10x more than all of us combined.
Is it too hard to post a link to the thread? Or maybe just prove the "n00b" wrong using logical arguments?
Your original post had ONE quote and ZERO links. Your ONLY quote contained a statement that was edited too many times to a reflect the real situation. Good work, you've just proven that your first post lacked logic (at least according to your definition of it). Thank you, I couldn't have done it better myself. My job here is done.
As for the examples - look for the countless "Capitol or Creatures" discussions, or "Might or Magic" discussions. As for unverified facts - just about any topic will do. How about the top post one in the library ("Not in the manual")?
And your "I don't feel like doing any work, how about you do it for me?" attitude is a prime example of the things that annoy some players. I've read almost every topic on about 20 pages in the library before I started posting. If you do that, you may notice the trend I was talking about. If you don't - that's fine too. Keep on posting things without knowing the whole story and brag about your great logic skills.
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted March 08, 2006 08:39 PM |
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RUSS THE WISE HATH SPOKEN !
... Now, please do give at least some serious THOUGHT about what he just said.
To quote once again good old MightyMage in his brilliant, highly helpful (for any new users, myself included at a time) and RED STAR AWARDED thread : Quote:
VITAL info for YOU to KNOW !
That will be (Legendarily) all.
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LM
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 08, 2006 10:04 PM |
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Russ:
Firstly, I had two quotes in my post, not one.
Secondly, the second quote basically meant, "Get out of here, n00b. We hate n00bs."
Thirdly, you seem to have missed part of my second post.
Quote:
Or maybe just prove the "n00b" wrong using logical arguments?
Is that too hard?
Fourthly,
Quote:
I've read almost every topic on about 20 pages in the library before I started posting.
Good. Not everyone does that. Now, people like you can help people who don't do that.
Fifthly,
Quote:
Keep on posting things without knowing the whole story and brag about your great logic skills.
Are you trying to flame me?
I'm not just writing about the FriendofGunnar situation. I'm talking about the practice of elitism in HC in general.
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Eccentric Opinion
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 08, 2006 10:29 PM |
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Quote:
What do you understand by this term elitism anyways?
Acting like one is better than everybody (or most everybody) else.
There is a difference between an elitist and a member of the elite. A member of the elite is good at whatever elite he or she is a member of. An elitist, on the other hand, may or may not be the one of the best at something, but acts like he or she is. You, unfortunately, are an elitist.
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Eccentric Opinion
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted March 08, 2006 10:47 PM |
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TIGRIS THE BRILLIANT HATH SPOKEN !
...Now, mvass (is it okay to call you that ? Most members have a certain shorter nickname friends call them on top of their complete nickname. For instance I'm LegendMaker in the text, but most ppl actually call me just Legend.
So since your full nickname is mvassilev, I guess we can actually call you mvass ? )...
...Anyways, please feel free to read my previous post again. Whatever's written in it also applies for this here post. Only this time it's about TIGRIS The BRILLANT instead of RUSS the WISE.
Do anyone know that fantastic oldschool rap song by a brilliant 80's band called GangStarr ? Called "Check the Technique" ? Well, I highly recommend it to anyone interested in (or against for that matter) "elitism".
Quote:
I got respect for the rep' when I speak : CHECK THE TECHNIQUE. SEE if you go FAR AWAY.
Anyways, I'll gladly keep in touch with mvass.
Nice to meet you.
Off playing Heroes now, like the humble MP LEGEND that I am.
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LM
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TNT_Addict
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Beautiful Liar
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posted March 08, 2006 11:00 PM |
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LoL, Tigris I think you should change your avatar back to the old one... 
This one of Tyraxor is probably cursed or damned or something.
Or maybe you're just on a bashing roll here.
I come in peace...
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2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 08, 2006 11:03 PM |
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I really don't see when someone gets upset cause someone plays single player. If they want to play Single Player and talk about it online, then the MP people should just stay away from it...Not call them a n00b and tell them to play MP.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 08, 2006 11:26 PM |
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I don't think "noob" is an insult. I do, however think that things such as "lil noob" are.
Quote:
I really don't see when someone gets upset cause someone plays single player. If they want to play Single Player and talk about it online, then the MP people should just stay away from it...Not call them a n00b and tell them to play MP.
I agree!
Maker :
Yes, it's all right to call me Mvass. That's what most people on HC call me.
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Eccentric Opinion
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted March 08, 2006 11:46 PM |
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Making Friends
Hehehe Mvass, you may be as young as most new users that created controversial threads lately, but by **** you sure are a smart and funny **** ! (I was about to call you an actual friendly word that I call most of my online friends, but I censored it just in case, since it has also been called an "insult" lately by some).
Nice to meet you (I DO mean it).
By the way, it's perfectly okay to play Monopoly the JUNIOR edition at home for years AND go to a Monopoly online forum to let ppl know about just how great you are in THAT version of the game.
But isn't it just a TINY BIT too much to push it to the point that you actually start ARGUING with known pros of Monopoly the VERY HARD VERSION FOR ADULTS about who is best ?
(EDIT : In the two paragraphs above, "you" =/= "you, mvassilev. It's a figure of speech. You know ? The GENERAL "you". If it causes confusion, I can replace these "you" by "one". It would have exactly the same meaning.)
Legendary Mvass !
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LM
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted March 09, 2006 12:03 AM |
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Yeah... I'm pretty much unamused by all of this.
So here's the warning to everyone involved - if the disrespect continues the penlties will follow very soon.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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Lich_King
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted March 09, 2006 12:09 AM |
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yeah, you act with him wrong... it doesn't amuse me... what about treating like he wouldn't be even born yet ? That would sound fun
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted March 09, 2006 12:16 AM |
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Missunderstanding...
Quote:
Yeah... I'm pretty much unamused by all of this.
So here's the warning to everyone involved - if the disrespect continues the penlties will follow very soon.
Pan, I've just sent an IM message to mvassilev to make sure we didn't have a missunderstanding there.
Actually, to be perfectly honest, out of the many posts I've made this last few nights, the ones in this thread are much less important.
This thread's rightful place seems to be in the Tavern, in my most humble opinion.
Anyways, I actually appreciate mvassilev's sense of humor, and I DO think he is smart. The rest is merely a friendly exchange of harmless jokes, at least it was the way I was seeing this up to mvassilev's last post and yours just now.
So, if I or any of my friends here (Russ and Tigris, and hopefully mvassilev in the near future) have actually hurt anyone's feelings, I'M SORRY. 
Please feel free to either move this thread out of the Tribunal, delete it altogether or edit it any ways you may see fit.
Mvassilev, please read the instant message I sent you by HC Messenger. I really mean it : I think you are smart and a fun guy, especially for your age. (EDIT : I DO mean that as a COMPLIMENT, in positive comparison to other ppl I know that are the same age.) And I AM pleased to meet you.
The last thing this community needs is yet another flamewar.
Legendary silence from me in this thread, now.
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LM
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 09, 2006 01:02 AM |
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Quote:
This thread's rightful place seems to be in the Tavern, in my most humble opinion.
This is not a joke thread. This is a serious discussion (at least, for me, and I am the thread creator, and thus I say what the thread is about). However, I accept your apology. I'll make note in the future not to take you seriously. I hope for our future agreements, though.
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Eccentric Opinion
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LegendMaker
Promising
Famous Hero
The Metal Specialist
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posted March 09, 2006 01:17 AM |
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Happy Ending
I'm glad this is settled, mvassilev.
Just a few precisions :
1) So you weren't joking, ok. Thanks for making things clear.
2) I WAS joking (mostly) in this thread (only because I mistakenly assumed it was fit). So please ignore (note to Pan : or even delete if need be) my humorous posts here. Then it will remain a rightful Tribunal thread.
3) Not take me seriously, ok, but only WHEN I'm joking, please ! I'm very serious in most of my posts (though it wasn't the case in this here thread).
EDIT :
4) The only post of mine that is dead serious in this here thread is the FIRST one, titled : "Learn to STAND > learn to WALK..." PLEASE whatever happens to the humorous ones, DON'T delete this one !
And let Csami know that my "philosophical stuff" that he was kind (or wise, depending on one's point of view) enough to think of some importance is posted here.
Good night, and **** bless.
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LM
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