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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Haven Faction
Thread: Heroes 5 Strategy: Playing Haven Faction [ This thread is 24 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (9) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 ]
bloucester
bloucester


Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
posted August 27, 2007 02:54 PM
Edited by alcibiades at 15:52, 27 Aug 2007.

still, this is playing haven faction and not playing heritage of deleb.
i'm for comparing haven tactics and heroes and other castles tactics and heroes but it's not about what seems to happen here - discussing mostly deleb and the like.
for example, what do you think of this?
my ideal development for the knight:

MAEVE - needs retaliation strike, benediction and exp trainer

attack - tactics, retribuition
leadership - divine guidance, aura of speed
light magic - master of blessings, master of wrath, angel (in multiplayer only)
logistics - pathfnding
enlightenment (defense if enlightenment doesnt show up)


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alcibiades Online
alcibiades

Hero of Order
Really, Ubisoft?
posted August 27, 2007 02:57 PM

I think actually there is a very good discussion going on here - not all concerned only to playing Haven, but most of it about how to creep with Haven and how it compares to other factions.

I don't see any idea in people making very specific topics about everything. We can easily make a topic called "Deleb is the best", and then we can have the first five people post "yes", "amen", and "I agree", after which it becomes trivial, and the thread dies. Not much use of that.

I think this thread makes for a quite informative read due to the last days additions, and I appreciate that.
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Heroes 7 - News overview | Heroes 7 - Discussion thread

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Elvin Online
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted August 27, 2007 03:19 PM

Maeve is my favourite pick for now She has the skills I want and starts with haste that can make her good for both earlygame and later.
I'll explain:

Within the first few levels you can get divine guidance and archery that greatly helps with creeping. Since I have been playing mostly multiplayer I have come to prioritize just a few things and let the rest as they come.

I definitely aim for divine guidance but unless the map is large enough I won't aim for aura of speed, training levels are better for a secondary knight and I will always get expert trainer first for retribution. That way benediction will take a while to get and it helps little.

From attack first things I get are archery and retribution, leaving tactics for later. Even if tactics don't help you they may disrupt your opponent's plans especially if he has sylvan or inferno - damn Nebiros!

And of course light where master of wrath and very possibly blessings is a given.

Then it depends, I may get logistics, luck, enlightenment and so on.
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beware a monkey
-ghost

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted August 27, 2007 03:27 PM

Quote:
Any good player will not divulge his/her strategies and tactics onto a public Forum.


So I guess sq isn't a good player.  I guess Frank or Xarfax weren't good players either.



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bloucester
bloucester


Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
posted August 27, 2007 04:11 PM

is there any specific rule of maeve not getting light magic? i am playing right now and i was offered dark magic 3 times in a row. since maeve speciality is haste, i have to have light magic...

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Elvin Online
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted August 27, 2007 04:13 PM

That's the bad part with a knight, it may take a while until you are offered light. The chance is 8% per level.
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beware a monkey
-ghost

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bloucester
bloucester


Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
posted August 27, 2007 04:21 PM

i can't shake the feeling that certain knghts have a greater chance of getting light magic. some time ago i played a lot of games with klaus (when his bonus to the paladin's attack was incredible - 10 pal kill 10 blackies with one hit) and i can't remember a game he didn't get light magic in the beginning.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 27, 2007 04:28 PM

IMO, the ideal late game/big map/rich map/non-rush map knight is not always that great with leadership/luck. Of course, he should have them as high as possible. Luck/leadership perks are not that necessary either. Sure, magic resistance can be great, soldier's luck may matter, divine guidance is sweet with paladins/marksman/just landed griffins, aura of swiftness is priceless vs obstacles and griffins can reach something 1st turn.
But sacrificing defense seems to be too much. Having a -30% reducion is like having troops with ~42% higher durability. Knights have more powerful retal strikes(counterstrike) and last stand is very powerful combined with shielded marksmen. 1HP priests are quite annoing too because they can still cast a spell -> endurance is good on anything, divine strength is needed badly on griffins and marksman.
Also, defense is good at creeping - hero has more time to do something and it's pretty cool to own some creeps with just 2 palas(one is guarded with retalation strike) healing each other.

So, the most optimal knight would look like
attack - tactics, battle frenzy, retribution
defense - vitality, stand ground, last stand
light - blessings, wrath, angel
enlightenment - intelligence
logistics - pathfinding, famialiar ground

and he is loaded with initiative, luck and morale arties so the ultimate artifact "imbaness" to aim at:
Weapon -> broken staff
Rings -> 2 ring of speed
Cuirass -> dragon scale armor(*1.05 palas initiative)
Helm -> lion crown
Pocket -> golden horseshoe
Cloak -> cloak of death's shadow (or cape of the lion's mane)
Boots -> dragon bone greaves(*1.1 palas initiative so IMO it's better than greaves or windstrider boots)
Shiled - I can't resist and I must say tome of summoning just because of phantom forces.. Also, if a battle is equal then maybe a phoenix will come and save me 25% damage reducing arcane armor may be good at some point too. On the other hand, dwarven shield is nothing to sneeze at either..
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted August 27, 2007 05:45 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 04:18, 28 Aug 2007.

hehe this looks more like diablo character strategy

When i play haven on large maps i always take dougal. I like to take diplomation too. This allows me to join some archers and some other nice creatures (one time i joined 10 fallen angels) I think its good option since knight needs leadership for retribution anyways.


Quote:
You mentioned Orson and 120 Marksem. I have a 1 tip for you.
Guild lvl 4 should be the first thing you built with necro. Then just use the spells.. Maybe you'll find something surprising about how many marksman can be killed with spells and 7 single ghosts. Of, course it matter what spells are given. No amount of skill will give you other spells in your guild. It's really that simple - luck matters whether you like it or not.


I think you didnt understand me. My opponent main army was including those maksmen/crossbowmen (about 60 each) among of the rest his troops and very powerful ballista. You cant kill all that with couple of ghosts, its not AI

Quote:
Well, maybe I'm just skilled enough to free Deleb with Grok before week 1 ends? Then, I guess I just have to take the shiny Ring of Speed, 15 succubus and go through teleport to get more imbaness. Deleb goes to my castle and she can kill pretty much anything around it. Then, I break lvl 7 guarding my oppoenent with Grok, find him and execute him. Even, IF I lose somehow(yeah, right..) I have a leveled up Deleb. This is on hard btw, but on heroic it can be even easier because more xp is given.


Here i can telll you a story. Ive played against StriderHL who was like 18-4 win loss at that point he had like 5-10 lvls more than i did(dont remember exactly) stats twice of mine and he still lost the game against me. He couldnt believe it but thats what happened and he had to add a 5th loss to his account. So watch out, dont be overconfident.

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dschingi
dschingi


Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
posted August 27, 2007 05:57 PM
Edited by dschingi at 17:58, 27 Aug 2007.

Just wait for the set items in TotE

hm dream knight huh... i may prefer the sandals, maybe armor of the forgotten hero and the shield slot should be flexible. You forgot the necklace, bloody claw with +1 dmg is never wrong.
Btw 2 rings of speed don't stack, but one ring of celerity should do it

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The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted August 27, 2007 09:52 PM
Edited by The_Gootch at 22:12, 27 Aug 2007.

Quote:
Btw 2 rings of speed don't stack, but one ring of celerity should do it


In 2.1 they do.  Tried it on my Blood Furies.

Edit:  Come to think of it, my Blood Furies had a 21 initiative.  I probably had a ring of celerity and a ring of speed.  Unsure of 2 rings of speed.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 28, 2007 03:46 AM

Quote:
I think its good option since knight needs leadership for retribution anyways.

Knight needs just high morale for retribution - so leadership may not be that necessary. Anyway, I agree that leadership is often worth it. It will haunt the knight lvl ups all the time. With it it's easier to get other skills. And yes, Dougal vs neutral archers/marskmen has a nice chance to get them with diplomacy BUT attacking them ASAP is not that good unless they are needed badly for creeping - it's better to wait as long as possibe and let the army grow:
bigger haven army each week -> higher chance to join
bigger number of week -> stacks grow so more archers/marksmen will join.

Quote:
I think you didnt understand me. My opponent main army was including those maksmen/crossbowmen (about 60 each) among of the rest his troops and very powerful ballista. You cant kill all that with couple of ghosts, its not AI

But still, you can do some damage with spells(mass slow, maybe mass confusion for time, phoenix, frenzy, icebolt - cold death(if present) for ballista) and then run away
I assume in your example it was cold death that won it for you..

Quote:
So watch out, dont be overconfident.

Nah, it has nothing to do with overconfidance. Grok is simply superior(unless unlucky..) because AI can't stop him(free Deleb fast) and log - opponent is like pressing stop button every 4 days. So, a match between 2 skilled players means that if someone wins vs non-unlucky Grok is not because he is good - it's because the opponent LET him win or was more unlucky. For example, vs the only real threat opponent(necro) losing may happen because Inferno LET necro to have higher chance to get cold death OR let a necromancer to have enough mana(familiars) to cast it.
On the other hand, why not to just let other castles develop? No need to execute them fast. Maybe they will come up with something interesting - Inferno still has still better chances to win. Deleb and Grok will cover the map in no time..
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted August 28, 2007 04:16 AM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 04:30, 28 Aug 2007.

Quote:
Nah, it has nothing to do with overconfidance. Grok is simply superior(unless unlucky..) because AI can't stop him(free Deleb fast) and log - opponent is like pressing stop button every 4 days. So, a match between 2 skilled players means that if someone wins vs non-unlucky Grok is not because he is good - it's because the opponent LET him win or was more unlucky. For example, vs the only real threat opponent(necro) losing may happen because Inferno LET necro to have higher chance to get cold death OR let a necromancer to have enough mana(familiars) to cast it.
On the other hand, why not to just let other castles develop? No need to execute them fast. Maybe they will come up with something interesting - Inferno still has still better chances to win. Deleb and Grok will cover the map in no time..


You say this from your experience or you speculating again?
I think nobody have ever freed deleb in first week(usually it wasnt needed since game often finished before end of second week, killing all those guardians on the way is also not easy) so if you did it thens its gj.

All i can tell you is that youre wrong ive won with many factions when i was against grok. You keep saying what happens between two skilled players and you know what? Ill taell you what happens the one with better strategy (and some luck perhaps) wins. If a map is well balanced its not about faction or heroes but its about players. Sure luck is always important but its never as important as strategy. In the long run everybody has the same luck so your performance depends on your decisions, not luck.

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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted August 28, 2007 04:51 AM

Quote:
Grok is simply superior(unless unlucky..) because AI can't stop him

Like the AI can't stop you if you play any other hero... you just need to play diffrently without teleport.

Quote:
So, a match between 2 skilled players means that if someone wins vs non-unlucky Grok is not because he is good - it's because the opponent LET him win or was more unlucky.


LOL? So basically as soon as a "skilled" player takes Grok it's gg and a "lucky" Grok = win no matter how good your opponent is...? Come on...

Quote:
Sure luck is always important but its never as important as strategy. In the long run everybody has the same luck so your performance depends on your decisions, not luck.

second that. If this game was only dependend on luck it wouldn't matter who you play... strategy is about minimalizing the role "luck" plays in your game and thinking ahead so that things don't depen on "chance" or "luck".

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 28, 2007 05:24 AM

So play someone who can beat them day 7-9(can be done even sooner but I wasn't lucky enough). And it IS easy if you have the right skills - hellfire, mark of the damned, exp war machines, tent, ballista, dark(slow), master of mind.
I don't even mention fire warriors because it's unlikely te get them but it if summoning is offered take it ASAP. Even being lucky with cheasts can matter a lot.
What funny, the main reason why it's easy for me now it's because I practised this map with save/load at the beginning. Because in real game there is no time to learn it. You try to risk, go fight too big creeps, die and it's gg. But with save/load you are learning EXACLY what is needed to beat those creeps. So, my main tip is:
Play it with save/load and get a creeping SKILL. Then, start playing a real game. Then you begin to realize that Grok is not that balanced here Also, I-just-need-more-skill-and-everything-will-be-ok fairy tale disappers too.

Anyway, all I meant is that both luck and skill are important. If 2 players are equally skilled then luck can be VERY decisive(one of the players get bone dragon block..). Also, freeing Deleb gives enormous advantage - Ring of speed, 15 succubi, goodies behind teleport..
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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted August 28, 2007 08:33 AM
Edited by Azagal at 05:05, 29 Aug 2007.

Quote:
What funny, the main reason why it's easy for me now it's because I practised this map with save/load at the beginning. But with save/load you are learning EXACLY what is needed to beat those creeps. So, my main tip is:
Play it with save/load and get a creeping SKILL. Then, start playing a real game.

Here I totally agree with you it's game decideing how good you are at creeping and how soon you lvl up etc. and you can only do that effeciently by learning how to do so a.k.a SKILL!
Quote:
Also, I-just-need-more-skill-and-everything-will-be-ok fairy tale disappers too.

What?? You just said yourself that you need skill. And this game is not based on luck!! Im not saying that luck doesn't play a role in this game it does!! You're right when you say that no skill in the world will change the spells you get but that doesn't change that you can still manage to win this game eventhough you were unlucky! That's the part where strategy kicks in. Games are NOT decided by luck!It does play a role but its not luck what decides the game!

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peddroelm
peddroelm

Tavern Dweller
posted August 28, 2007 10:03 AM

On approximatively equal forces && players_skill - random ATB will decide the victor. It can even allow victory with fewer (troops artifacts hero stats).

You must try and secure victory before the last battle begins whatever the RANDOM ATB will roll. Of course luck//random still applies on every single step on the way towards the final battle but if the game is long enough it tends balance out and let player_skill make the difference.   Playing more games (like best of 10 will further reduce "luck" of the equation)  .  

Different factions also have different "power output" on latter stages ...

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Deathy
Deathy


Known Hero
Angels Galore
posted August 28, 2007 11:22 AM
Edited by Deathy at 11:23, 28 Aug 2007.

yeah, this game is 50% skill and 50% luck

skill is how well you creep,how do you act in battles,how you build your hero, how good strategist you are etc etc.

luck is getting right spells, getting right artifacts, getting first turns at the first round in final battle, how often you get lucky hits and do you get them in critical situations,getting morale on units, getting 2% skills on first few levels etc etc. stuff like that

both have huge effect on the game.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted August 28, 2007 11:30 AM

Quote:
Games are NOT decided by luck!It does play a role but its not game what decides the game!

They are decided by both whether someone likes it or not. Sometimes, no amount of skill can save even the greatest player because opponent played to his faction's strength right and will leave him no choice than losing - the only thing that can be done about it is losing less miserably, which is skill too.
So, the real skill is about optimal usage of a given faction strengths and not about some stupid win. Fine, a player A beats a player B but COULD a player A do better if the factions were switched? That's the real question that should be asked..
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bloucester
bloucester


Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
posted August 28, 2007 12:46 PM

ok guys. i played a few multiplayer games these days with my all-time favourite haven and i won 5 and lost 4. the problem is that all my opponents were like: "hahaha u picked the weakest town". they say it sucks because of no good magic available and the knight's inability to become a magicker and to creep quickly. some even compared it to h3 inferno in terms of being too weak. what do you think, can haven be labelled as the weakest?

so, one again, do you think haven sucks because of no magic hero, slow creep? i'd like to hear your opinion.

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