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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Phantom Forces a leeeeetle overpower?
Thread: Phantom Forces a leeeeetle overpower? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
OOPMan
OOPMan


Adventuring Hero
posted June 10, 2006 09:57 PM

Poll Question:
Phantom Forces a leeeeetle overpower?

Hey there, I was just wondering whether anyone else thought the Phantom Forces spell is a little OTT, given the right circumstances.

In particular, Phantom Forces combined with the Academy hero Jhora (Ability: Windspeaker) is a very very nasty combo...

Here are my problems...

1: It's too cheap. With a couple of Archmages in your army it costs a mere 3 mana to dupe any stack, even dupe stacks! Even at full cost,  duping a stack of level 7's is still a nasty trick...

2: It's too flexible. The old Clone spell was limited in that it required expert level before it could be used to clone high-level creatures. This did make it a bit crap in most cases, but is more balanced Phantom Forces' ability to clone anything, anywhere, anytime.

3: The incorporeal add is nice. A little too nice in fact. 50% incorp is one of the major reasons I think Phantom Forces is a little OTT at the moment. With a bit of skill and the right heroe (Jhora), you can literally create an army of clones. More clones = more 50% dodges = more ownage of enemies. I think 25% would be a little more balanced...

4: Mana clone. I personally think this would be the best thing to remove or alter for incorporeal. At the moment it's possible to basically create mana out of nothing using Phantom Forces. Dupe your Archmages like crazy and then spam with Fireballs. Lame? I certainly think so, but it works very very well no question. Duped creatures should start with 50% of parent's current-mana-when-cloned, not 100% of current mana as it is at present...

5: Cloning the clones? I think that this is another OTT feature of Phantom Forces as is. Being able to dupe your dupes has numerous balance problems. For a start it allows you to amplify the mana cloning problem I mentioned above. It also allows you to daisy chain creatures across the field, although this is less of an issue, unless you happen to be cloning high initiative creatures. Overall, I think that clones should just plain not be cloneable...

I love Phantom Forces as it is, but I also think it needs to be changed a little. So, what do you all think?

Is Phantom Forces overpowered?
____________
It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye...

Responses:
Yes, it's overpowered and needs to be nerfed...
Somewhat, it could do with a few changes...
No, it's fine...
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Nebuka
Nebuka


Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
posted June 10, 2006 10:01 PM

You here need expert mastery as well to cast it on lv.7 critters.

No mastery 1-4 levels
Basic 1-5
Advanced 1-6
Expert 1-7
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Thanatos
Thanatos


Known Hero
posted June 10, 2006 10:09 PM

I don't think it's overpowered... don't forget that a clone only has 1 hp for the entire stack and that if you can kill it before it can take any action your enemy has wasted a turn. If there are multiple clones just toss a Meteor Shower or Fireball to kill them all at once.

I do agree that cloning clones is just silly though and the fact that Inferno clones can gate in real creatures is just plain broken, so those things need to be fixed.


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OOPMan
OOPMan


Adventuring Hero
posted June 10, 2006 10:18 PM

Apologies for the error Nebuka. It's still not too hard to get it too that level though, given the reduced number of skills selectable in H5...

Yes, the clones can be killed easily with AE spells, but whether or not you get a chance is another question.

As long as a large stack of high-level clones gets even one shot it has basically more than payed for itself. The damage it's dealt makes the paltry mana cost seem all the more ridicolous.

Also, if you use Phantam Forces in a specific fashion and with a specific artifact combination it really is dangerous. Initiative boosting artifacts are not exactly rare and with a hero like Jhora it's actually surprisingly easy to create 2 or 3 Archmage clones and actually get a chance to use them before an AE spell manages to nuke them.

Also, the 50% incorp actually makes them useful as a cheap and yet dangerous meat shield against enemies with low casting potential...

For example...

I clone my stack of 150 Steel Golems. Ordinarily I'd use Golems defensively, since retaliations have a nasty habit of eating up stacks. A large stack of cloned Steel Golems, on the other hand, is my  first choice when it comes to dishing out damage without the need to worry about retaliotions. After all, the Golems deal damage first and if they survive after that, well, the more the merrier...

Mainly I'd say that cloning clones needs to go and that, possibly, 50% incorp should be reduced to 25% or maybe even completely removed...
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted June 10, 2006 11:53 PM

I haven't really used Phantom Forces yet ... there seems to be some bogs (the gating issue mainly, and the spell point issue possibly. The Incorporeal ability sounds powerfull, yes, but I'm not sure it's too much. After all, this is one of like 3 usefull Summoning Magic spell, and there's gotta be SOMETHING here for those who actually bother to take the skill. It might be more appropriate to have it as a 4th level spell, however - not that there's too much difference with the new spell system, but it would raise the spellpoint cost a bit. And after all, Firewall is really not that excellent a 4th level spell anyway ... Don't think anyone would lie sleepless if Firewall was displaced unto 3rd level.

Also, have to agree that Puppet Master is a much much more imballanced skill. It seems completely nuts that there's no spellpower dependence, so you can possibly controle the enemy unit of, say, 50 archangels.

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Vicheron
Vicheron


Known Hero
posted June 11, 2006 01:57 AM

Puppet Master only lasts 0.25 turns/spell power and it reduces the initiative of the controlled creature by a lot. If you don't have enough spell power then you won't even be able to use the controlled creature by the time Puppet Master wears off.

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Fuzzier
Fuzzier


Adventuring Hero
posted June 11, 2006 06:09 AM

Quote:
Hey there, I was just wondering whether anyone else thought the Phantom Forces spell is a little OTT, given the right circumstances...
Is Phantom Forces overpowered?

DEFINITELY, it's over-powered!!!
You can clone archangels, and let the clone resurrect allies, that's buggy! They're just clones --- of form, not of essence --- they're not archangel themselves! The Gods're going to be CRAZY to see that!
Clones should not be allowed to use unique creature abilities such as Archangel's Resurrection! They are just physical dummies, and they serve as meat-shield or attacker, not caster!

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Snap
Snap


Hired Hero
posted June 11, 2006 06:54 AM

Agreed, way overpowered.  It should be a 4th level spell, so that noobs can't use it even with sorcery+magic insight: gotta have advanced Summoning.  It should cost twice as much, and you shouldn't be able to clone 7th level creatures even on expert.  Basically, the way it worked in Heroes 3 was just about right.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 11, 2006 09:23 AM

Soldier's luck, anyone? xD How about a mirror imaged stack of 2k skellies? or two mirror imaged stacks? or.. three?

And not every hero has got area spells.


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law558
law558


Adventuring Hero
posted June 11, 2006 10:49 AM

Phantom forces is too overpowered. Plus in my experiance even mass damaging spells can fail to hit the clones.
I don't know if this is a bug, or a hero skill, but if you read the description

-Phantom Forces (6 Mana)
Copies the selected friendly unit. The copy has the same characteristics as original unit except that it disappears as soon as it receives any damage (Incorporeal ability gives the copy 50% chance to avoid any damage)


The clones have the change to avoid Any damage. This could apply to magic damage too. And if it is true, phantom forces needs to be weakened.

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shalindar
shalindar

Tavern Dweller
posted June 11, 2006 11:43 AM

this spell was so much better in heroes 4, I remember casting it with my 100 genies on my titans, that was sick, they had normal titan hit points.
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Gus
Gus


Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
posted June 11, 2006 01:43 PM

Quote:
The clones have the change to avoid Any damage. This could apply to magic damage too. And if it is true, phantom forces needs to be weakened.


no, actually, it's only physical, like the Ghosts/Spectres. Yet another typo, i guess.
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rainalcar
rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted June 11, 2006 02:34 PM

I think that they should remove the chance to miss, or at least nerf it to 20% max or so. As it stands now, you have to hit it with area attack such as liches, or use magic against it.

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silentbobus
silentbobus


Adventuring Hero
posted June 11, 2006 04:34 PM

It's deefinately overpowered in fights vs Neutral enemies. I've won entire battles without loses due entirely to Phantom Forces alone. It's easy enough to counter in a Hero vs Hero fight though.

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perman
perman

Tavern Dweller
posted June 20, 2006 12:19 AM

When I played with a necromancer and faced a powerful hero, it was definately overpowered. Each turn he cloned a Archmage, and as I didn't have any area destruction spells, I either had to waste a turn with one of my units to take it down (so that one of his other powerful units could stay alone) or use a Lightning Bolt or something like that - which also sometimes was dodged - instead of firing up my Dark Magic (my Necromancer wasn't so good at Destruction you see).

In addition I took down a lot of the original Archmages, but he just cloned the clones, and as I was taking them down slower than he was producing them, of course I lost. This was really upsetting as his Clones of Clones recieved more units than the original had.

What really pissed me of was that he could create a "Phantom Force" from a "Phantom Force", which logically shouldn't be possible as the Phantom doesn't exist properly, and therefore shouldn't be possible to copy.

If they change the last feature, it definately is a fair spell, considering if they for instance face a Sorcered-up Warlock who blasts spells faster than your normal hero and has time to Meteor Strike the the units before the clones ever gets to do anything.
However, if you don't have area destruction magic, this one can be a real pain considering the possibilities of missing even with spells, effectively wasting the heros turn.

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juventas
juventas


Adventuring Hero
posted June 20, 2006 12:30 AM
Edited by juventas at 00:32, 20 Jun 2006.

Phantom Forces is only overpowered because sometimes the cloned stack gets to attack immediately.  If they managed it like puppet master and gave the clone a huge initiative penalty, then it would be more manageable.
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dantares
dantares


Hired Hero
posted June 20, 2006 05:02 AM

yes, i used it effectively (with expert level) to defeat gilearn (the campaign hero) by just casting phantom forces on my pit lords and having them rain meteor showers on his master elves and druids.. easy win..

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hobowu
hobowu


Known Hero
posted June 26, 2006 09:47 AM

it's not very common that your phantoms can move right after they've been cloned...there are several differences and similarities in accordance to the casting and usage of the Phantom Forces/Clone spell between H5 and H3:
in H3, you can cast clone at any time you want, as your hero can cast a spell at any of your creature's turns, as long as you haven't casted a spell that round, which makes it much more likely that your cloned stack will get to move, but in H5, there is a minimal chance that your cloned stack can move before one of your enemy's creatures tries to attack it... your clone relies on it's incorporeal ability to survive.
In H3, your cloned creatures have been able to cast spells (eg. resurrect), this is the same in H5. However, the H3 cloned units can only cast if the original creature has not yet cast...(unless it's master genies or ogre magi who can cast multiple times, but you'll have less casts left to use depending on how many your original has already used)
In H3, phantom forces/clone requires more and more advanced magic to cast it on higher tier creatures, which is the same in H5.
In H5, you can phantom your phantoms, while in H3 you cannot clone your clones...(big difference, makes phantom forces more useful...)
IMO, phantom forces is fine as is...maybe a slight tweak to take it to a lv 4 spell might be better
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ZeroXcuses
ZeroXcuses


Known Hero
posted June 29, 2006 07:41 PM

Quote:
it's not very common that your phantoms can move right after they've been cloned...there are several differences and similarities in accordance to the casting and usage of the Phantom Forces/Clone spell between H5 and H3:
in H3, you can cast clone at any time you want, as your hero can cast a spell at any of your creature's turns, as long as you haven't casted a spell that round, which makes it much more likely that your cloned stack will get to move, but in H5, there is a minimal chance that your cloned stack can move before one of your enemy's creatures tries to attack it... your clone relies on it's incorporeal ability to survive.
In H3, your cloned creatures have been able to cast spells (eg. resurrect), this is the same in H5. However, the H3 cloned units can only cast if the original creature has not yet cast...(unless it's master genies or ogre magi who can cast multiple times, but you'll have less casts left to use depending on how many your original has already used)
In H3, phantom forces/clone requires more and more advanced magic to cast it on higher tier creatures, which is the same in H5.
In H5, you can phantom your phantoms, while in H3 you cannot clone your clones...(big difference, makes phantom forces more useful...)
IMO, phantom forces is fine as is...maybe a slight tweak to take it to a lv 4 spell might be better


Quote:
it's not very common that your phantoms can move right after they've been cloned...there are several differences and similarities in accordance to the casting and usage of the Phantom Forces/Clone spell between H5 and H3:
in H3, you can cast clone at any time you want, as your hero can cast a spell at any of your creature's turns, as long as you haven't casted a spell that round, which makes it much more likely that your cloned stack will get to move, but in H5, there is a minimal chance that your cloned stack can move before one of your enemy's creatures tries to attack it... your clone relies on it's incorporeal ability to survive.
In H3, your cloned creatures have been able to cast spells (eg. resurrect), this is the same in H5. However, the H3 cloned units can only cast if the original creature has not yet cast...(unless it's master genies or ogre magi who can cast multiple times, but you'll have less casts left to use depending on how many your original has already used)
In H3, phantom forces/clone requires more and more advanced magic to cast it on higher tier creatures, which is the same in H5.
In H5, you can phantom your phantoms, while in H3 you cannot clone your clones...(big difference, makes phantom forces more useful...)
IMO, phantom forces is fine as is...maybe a slight tweak to take it to a lv 4 spell might be better


I like the H3 version. Cloning say, Archangels after they have cast resurrection and being able to cast it again is cheese. 30 Archangels can cast resurrection better than a hero with 40+ spellpower!

We now see why they removed incorporeal from Spec Dragons and Wraiths the imbaness that could have been...

I don't have a problem with phantom forces. A spell fling is all it takes.

Most importantly, the summoning tree is not impressive besides this spell and conjure phoenix. They had to give a broken spell to make it look attractive.

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juventas
juventas


Adventuring Hero
posted June 30, 2006 12:34 AM

Quote:
it's not very common that your phantoms can move right after they've been cloned...


Dang, I must have a interesting string of luck...
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