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| Thread: Conceptual problem |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Istari
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Truth Teller, ToH
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posted April 24, 2007 04:04 PM |
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Conceptual problem
Here is a bit of Might and Magic history:
The Mythic Age
The Myth of Creation : the Void, the Cosmic egg, the birth of the twin Dragons of Order and Chaos.
The Dragon of Order creates the world and gives birth to the Elemental Dragons.
The Elder mortal races are created as servants of the Elemental Dragons.
The Dragon of Chaos creates the Demons.
The Mythic Age ends with an all-out war between the Primordial Twins, fought on all levels of reality.
The Dragon of Chaos is vanquished but not destroyed. He is jailed in the planet's fiery core, and his monstrous offsprings are cast out of the material world.
The Dragon of Order, severely weakened by the conflict, buries herself within the moon to rest and heal.
The Ancient Age
Elder Wars The Angels launch a crusade on the Faceless. The destruction is terrible, and the elder races suffer tremendously. Early civilizations and kingdoms are destroyed.
The Primordial Dragons become myths and are slowly forgotten. Only the Elemental Dragons are worshipped.
The Demons benefit from the general confusion to establish a foothold in the world. Lurking in uninhabited places, they slowly gather their strength.
Where do Angels fit in? What are they. The dragon of Order creates elemental dragons to serve him. The Dragon of Chaos creates demons who serve him. But who creates the Angels? and who do they serve? They are clearly spiritual beings and cannot be lumped with all the other creatures of Ashan. So what's their story?
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radar
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posted April 24, 2007 04:16 PM |
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elemental dragons are elrath, sylanna, malassa and arkath. angels are servants of elrath, thus he created them.
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Elvin
Admirable
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Endless Revival
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posted April 24, 2007 04:17 PM |
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I thought they were creations of Elrath. Not sure if it is specifically mentioned anywhere though.
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted April 24, 2007 04:17 PM |
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What's the faceless' story as well?
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted April 24, 2007 04:32 PM |
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The faceless is one of the elemental dragons... Malassa I think.
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Istari
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posted April 24, 2007 04:37 PM |
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Edited by Istari at 16:37, 24 Apr 2007.
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Order Dragon Elemental Dragons (Elrath)Angels
Chaos DragonDevils
It loses some symmetry. Conceptually the Devil's do not parallel the Angels, they were actually created by a more powerful being than the angels were and thus should be stronger. Good thing this concept didn't work it's way into actual game design where the Angels are better. 
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radar
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posted April 24, 2007 04:38 PM |
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Edited by radar at 16:39, 24 Apr 2007.
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yes. so, problem resolved I think 
3 posts in almost same time^^
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siinn
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 05:29 PM |
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Edited by siinn at 17:46, 24 Apr 2007.
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I've got a slightly different point of view according to the fact that I'm french....
("pfffff once again!" may you say  )
in french the story of ashan creation tells what you already know but... "the faceless" = "leS sans-visageS" (they are many!)
thus Malassa is not the faceless!!!
Did Asha create:
===> 6 elementar dragons... YES!
===> angels?? very likely
===> faceless?? possible
===> elder races (mortals)?? very likely
Did Urgash create:
===> demons lords... YES!
===> demons... YES!
===> faceless?? very likely
===> elder races (mortals)?? possible
this is my feeling according to the most logic possibility but nowhere it's written who exactly created the angels and the faceless.
the bottom line is: Istari is right, there is a black hole in ashan mythology! and now I can see to major questions:
1 - do angels and faceless belong to elder races? elder races are supposed to be mortal...
2 - who created angels and faceless? Asha, Urgash, both?
 
en français dans le texte (from Ubi ouebsite):
* Les races mortelles des "Anciens" furent créées pour servir les Dragons élémentaires.
* La Guerre des Anciens – Les Anges partirent en croisade contre les Sans-visages. La destruction fut considérable et les races anciennes souffrirent terriblement. Les premières civilisations et les royaumes originels furent anéantis.
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alcibiades
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of Gold Dragons
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posted April 24, 2007 06:18 PM |
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Sinn > You seem to have slightly misunderstood what was written about the Faceless. Malassa is the matron of the Faceless, Malassa is not the Faceless (which are indeed a race themselves, on par with the Angels).
Btw. I don't think the Elemental Dragons created the elder races. I think Asha created both the Elemental Dragons and the Mortal Races. Thus:
Asha > Elemental Dragons
Asha > Mortal Races
Urgash > Demons
Therefore, the Angels and the Devils are indeed on par.
This is quoting from the Myth Of Creation (note: We have no proof this is the official mythology!):
Quote:
ASHA, the Primordial Dragon of Order creates the world by giving it shape and purpose.
She then gives birth to the Elemental Dragons who are destined to guide and rule her creation.
The mortal races are created as “servants of the Dragon Gods”, and placed upon the earth. Each chooses its gift and its patron.
It is indeed not completely unequivocal who create the mortal races, but I read it as Asha create them.
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Istari
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posted April 24, 2007 06:30 PM |
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Quote:
Asha > Elemental Dragons
Asha > Mortal Races
Urgash > Demons
I agree with this. I disagree that the angels belong to the mortal races. They are spiritual beings. What you say above still does not explain who created them. We can guess that Asha did, but why would he? He created the elemental dragons for presumabley the same purpose that the angels would fill.
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alcibiades
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posted April 24, 2007 06:33 PM |
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The Angels are indeed one of the Mortal races [according to the source above]. The original 6 mortal races are Angels, Faceless, Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Naga.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 06:51 PM |
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Agreed, alcibiades mentioned all the information very acurately.
I want to add something.
Angels and Archangels = Servants of Elrath,
Children of Elrath = Celestial Dragon?? (in homm 6 maybe)
Facelesses = Servants of Malassa
Children of Malassa = Black Dragon
Demon Lords, Devils and Archdevils = Servants of Urgash
Children of Urgash = Doom Dragon ?? (don't know the exact name) or Chaos Dragon spawn??
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VokialBG
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posted April 24, 2007 07:13 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 19:17, 24 Apr 2007.
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Time for new theory:
"The Angels launch a crusade on the Faceless. The destruction is terrible, and the elder races suffer tremendously. Early Elf civilizations and kingdoms are destroyed.
The Primordial Dragons become myths and are slowly forgotten. Only the Elemental Dragons are worshipped.
The Demons benefit from the general confusion to establish a foothold in the world. Lurking in uninhabited places, they slowly gather their strength."
OK, after the attack of the Angels (not the humans only the Angels) the Faceless is defeated, the the elder races are destroyed, and the Early Elf civilizations and kingdoms are destroyed too! The first race are the elfs and the dark elfs.
Here is what I think, Nival are not very creative (we all know it) so they just gate some ideas of Tolkien
The first races are the elfs and dark elfes
then the demons appears
Elrath create his own race of servants
Then the humans derive from the elfs, later they start to love Elrath and he give them a protection (the Angels)
The dwarfs derive from the humans
One of the humans is blassed to use magic and he become the first wizard.
Sar-Shazzar become the first Necromancer, but he use his magic for good.
Some of the wizards are not very good so they start experiments with elfs and humans and they just create the orcs
the nagas derive from the orcs
There are many incongruities in the storyline, in the descriptions of the campaign mission it's written, that the first necromanser is Sandro, but he is killed by Syrus, and that Crag Hag is still alive! (I hope that he will be in the new addon!)... I can name more incongruities...
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 07:19 PM |
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But, all have been established, so there is no room for new theory.
What we can do now is predicting from things that exist since the myth of creation untill hammer of fate.
Still, i'm curious about children of Elrath and children of Urgash
It seems that demons are urgash children, but the present demons are not direct children, i'm sure even Kha beleth is not first generation, but Black dragon, magma dragon, emerald dragon are all first generation of their progenitor. So, there must be a dragon children too for Urgash.
Now, what is of elrath? Angels and Archangels are only his servants. Maybe Elrath children are celestial dragons, because Faceless are only servants of Malassa, Malassa's children are Black Dragons, and one of her first offspring is Malsara (it seems so, not sure).
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted April 24, 2007 09:33 PM |
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If Angels are a mortal race created by Asha
and
Angels are the servants of Elrath...
Why in the world would Asha create servants for Elrath?
The intended parallel makes more sense...
Urgath creates Devils
and
Devils serve Urgash.
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Elvin
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posted April 24, 2007 09:38 PM |
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Because Elrath is her offspring?
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Ted
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posted April 24, 2007 10:10 PM |
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Edited by Ted at 22:11, 24 Apr 2007.
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posted April 24, 2007 10:22 PM |
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AFAIK
According to the myth of creation the Elder Races are: Angels(Elrath), Faceless(Malassa), Naga(Shalassa)[this I am not sure], Elves(Sylanna), Dwarves(Arkath) and Men(Sylath).
They were all created by Asha to serve the Elemental Dragons.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 24, 2007 10:38 PM |
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True, they were all created to serve her children.
Naga is created for Shalassa the water dragon.
There must be the first offspring of Urgash that have the same class and rank as the six elemental dragons, because devils, demon lords, and demon sovereigns cannot match the elemental dragons.
Also, i'm sure Elrath has celestial dragons as his children.
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Daystar
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posted April 24, 2007 11:23 PM |
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There was something in the history that Asha created her 6 kids, then Urgash created 6 demonic parallels. I'm guessing the current demons are the servants of the parallel of fire.
My thoughts: 6 Demon Gods
Fire
Ice
Chaos
Pain
Fear
Shadow
EDIT:
I researched. Demon Overlords, not necessarily gods.
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