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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Zombies improvements
Thread: Zombies improvements This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT»
covert-one
covert-one

Tavern Dweller
posted June 26, 2006 01:04 PM

Zombies improvements

Hi,

I was wondering why zombies are still in this game (as I guess most of you do) but since they are included, and they STILL SUX as hell i was thinking about some improvement, which will make them at least a little more useful.

In fact, since they are supposed to be a melee shield, why not add them some improvement, which will suit them as an early tank unit for the undead. For instance ability like "hardened skin" or something, reducing the inflicted physical damage. Since zombies are created by rituals (dark magic) and "they feel no pain" (at least phisical) i was thinking that such an ability will suit them best.

Anyway this is only a proposal. I will be glad to hear other ideas and I hope something will be seen in some next patch, or expansion, which will make this unit useful.

regards


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Kingpriest
Kingpriest


Hired Hero
posted June 26, 2006 03:49 PM

I agree, zombies need an improvement.  Even one more initiative would be good, at least from my point of view.  

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OOPMan
OOPMan


Adventuring Hero
posted June 26, 2006 04:03 PM

Nah. Zombies have always sucked and god willing they always will...

Zombies that aren't crap would just be weird...

Improve some of the other Necro creatures, but not that lowly Zombie. Leave him happy and crappy...
____________
It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye...

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted June 26, 2006 04:26 PM

I think OOPMan is right - there will always have to be some useless creatures, and I guess Zombie is as good a candidate as any for one of those. However, some small changes could be made - if they were ment as a tank unit, they should have 1 or 2 more in defence, instead of the lowly 2. Hit Points are ok, they are extremely slow - but well, they are zombies after all, and you don't have to be fast to take a beating - but they are not quite as tough as they ought to be.

But a greater priority for me would be to increase the speed of the Ghost.

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BigBadVoodoo
BigBadVoodoo


A poster
posted June 26, 2006 07:15 PM

necro is actually kind of fine... 3 ghosts surrounding your skeleton archer stack in the back corner, with a first aid tent/raise dead and eternal servitude, plus a stack of vampires to help with stacks

you can clear a lot of neutral stuff ...

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silentbobus
silentbobus


Adventuring Hero
posted June 26, 2006 07:23 PM

One improvement I would be tempted to give the Plague Zombie would be something like the equivalent of a Heat Shield. Anyone killing a zombie would have all sorts of nasty stuff spill on them. Anyone killing a zombie unit should take some damage...

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 26, 2006 07:39 PM

zombies that are not crap ain't real HOMM zombies!

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covert-one
covert-one

Tavern Dweller
posted June 26, 2006 09:36 PM

Oh this is quite interesting!!!

It looks like you folks doesnt even care that there are useless units in this game or how they can be improved. In fact it seems that you prefer there to be some in the game.

As far as i can remember in any other game i've played zombies are always far tough than the HOMM zombies.

I agree that Necro is strong enough and if need to be improved something thats speed of ghosts, the special ability of weight and the stupid spectral dragons (the idea of incorporeal ability is really good for them).

But still why not imrpove the damn mindless zombies. I still think they should be stronger tank unit early in the game with good defence bonus, or ability which gives them increased resistance to phisical damage (instead of avoiding it) so they can protect scellies. Since they are in the game, why just ignore them.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted June 26, 2006 10:06 PM

The problem is, really, that you can't improve any of the excisting Necromancer units because in late game, they are going to have some 3-4 K skeleton archers, and all their other units have to be crap in order to give the others just the bearest of a chance.

I think the greatest problem with the game is that Skeleton has gained the ranged ability. In the old game, it really didn't matter that much if Necros got tons of skeles, because heck, they were slow and weak and didn't do that much damage. However, ones the skeles becomes ranged, that changes the picture.

In order to make Necromancers more ballanced, they have to nerf the Necromancer skill and/or nerf the Skeleton archer. Range penalty wouldn't be off here, to balance the huge numbers. After that, they could do several things, which might be: a) Increase Hit Points of Zombie, or better, give it damage reduction. b) Increase speed of Ghosts. c) Improve Whight specials including Harm Touch > Death Touch (=Death Stare) and make them float. d) Improve Spectral Dragons by increasing speed by 2, and give them Incorporeal ability in some shape.

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BigBadVoodoo
BigBadVoodoo


A poster
posted June 26, 2006 10:48 PM

Quote:
The problem is, really, that you can't improve any of the excisting Necromancer units because in late game, they are going to have some 3-4 K skeleton archers, and all their other units have to be crap in order to give the others just the bearest of a chance.

I think the greatest problem with the game is that Skeleton has gained the ranged ability. In the old game, it really didn't matter that much if Necros got tons of skeles, because heck, they were slow and weak and didn't do that much damage. However, ones the skeles becomes ranged, that changes the picture.

In order to make Necromancers more ballanced, they have to nerf the Necromancer skill and/or nerf the Skeleton archer. Range penalty wouldn't be off here, to balance the huge numbers. After that, they could do several things, which might be: a) Increase Hit Points of Zombie, or better, give it damage reduction. b) Increase speed of Ghosts. c) Improve Whight specials including Harm Touch > Death Touch (=Death Stare) and make them float. d) Improve Spectral Dragons by increasing speed by 2, and give them Incorporeal ability in some shape.


No. Skeleton archers are fine, learn2play.

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Andmcmuffin2
Andmcmuffin2


Hired Hero
In need of Undead Avatar
posted June 27, 2006 12:33 AM

Zombies just need to get in the battle faster. btw- is the teleport spell still in the game?
____________
The wraith is reserved?!?! NOOOO I'M NOT GOING TO BE PINK AND UNDEAD!

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igniteice
igniteice

Tavern Dweller
posted June 27, 2006 01:06 AM

Zombies are great for creeping early game before you have skeleton archers.  Take for instance the map Land of Outcasts.  You can capture the ore mine on first day and then the wood next day just by using zombies.  Remember, they have 17hp - that's a lot! That's double what ghosts have and half of what vampires have and they're only tier 2 unit.  They are quite inexpensive as well.  I'd go with zombies over ghosts any day for the hitpoints alone.

Besides, late game, if you're playing with Lucretia, all you need is skeleton archers and vampire lords - nothing else.  I carry around wraiths, archliches, and spectral dragons, but only for looks - I actually take them out of combat.  And once you get 100+ vampires, you don't even need raise dead.

Point is, zombies can suck late game because you don't need them to be any better.  It's not unbalanced or anything,

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OOPMan
OOPMan


Adventuring Hero
posted June 27, 2006 09:31 AM

Quote:
No. Skeleton archers are fine, learn2play.


Wow, sterling contribution to the discussion there...

Not to mention the english langauge...

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted June 27, 2006 09:54 AM

Quote:
Zombies are great for creeping early game before you have skeleton archers.  Take for instance the map Land of Outcasts.  You can capture the ore mine on first day and then the wood next day just by using zombies.  Remember, they have 17hp - that's a lot! That's double what ghosts have and half of what vampires have and they're only tier 2 unit.  They are quite inexpensive as well.  I'd go with zombies over ghosts any day for the hitpoints alone.

Besides, late game, if you're playing with Lucretia, all you need is skeleton archers and vampire lords - nothing else.  I carry around wraiths, archliches, and spectral dragons, but only for looks - I actually take them out of combat.  And once you get 100+ vampires, you don't even need raise dead.

Point is, zombies can suck late game because you don't need them to be any better.  It's not unbalanced or anything,



Well that's MY point: And army based entirely on one or two units is unballanced. Perhaps not externally, but internally. Simply, as I see it, there's something wrong when you level 1 units becomes your single most important unit during practically the entire game. For all other factions, you will rely mostly on units 1-3 in early game, 3-5 during mid game, and 5-7 during late game. Necromancers rely on level 1 during the entire game, the others are just there to shield them.

Of course, it makes playing quite easy. But I still think it would be more fun to balance things better, so that Skele's become less important and the other units more so (it was the last sentence that makes this post not OT ).

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 27, 2006 10:04 AM

an army consisting only skele archs and vamplords is so easy to beat. I don't see any imbalances here It's good for creeping, but do you creep with all units you can get, or just those who are best for this job?

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dantares
dantares


Hired Hero
posted June 27, 2006 11:18 AM

I wish that zombies will be replaced by mummies, at least mummies are much better with their cursing attack. Zombies are damn weak and most importanly, too slow to do anything...

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law558
law558


Adventuring Hero
posted June 27, 2006 12:33 PM

Quote:
The problem is, really, that you can't improve any of the excisting Necromancer units because in late game, they are going to have some 3-4 K skeleton archers, and all their other units have to be crap in order to give the others just the bearest of a chance.

I think the greatest problem with the game is that Skeleton has gained the ranged ability. In the old game, it really didn't matter that much if Necros got tons of skeles, because heck, they were slow and weak and didn't do that much damage. However, ones the skeles becomes ranged, that changes the picture.

In order to make Necromancers more ballanced, they have to nerf the Necromancer skill and/or nerf the Skeleton archer. Range penalty wouldn't be off here, to balance the huge numbers. After that, they could do several things, which might be: a) Increase Hit Points of Zombie, or better, give it damage reduction. b) Increase speed of Ghosts. c) Improve Whight specials including Harm Touch > Death Touch (=Death Stare) and make them float. d) Improve Spectral Dragons by increasing speed by 2, and give them Incorporeal ability in some shape.


I remember in H4, the necromancer's could could raise other undead units. This could limit the power of the skeleton archers.
If for example after a huge battle, you raised 200 skeleton archers,
Now you would raise 30 S/A, 15 P/Z, 10G, and maybe 5 Lichs or Vampires. Now you could use other undead units, and (After a bit of twicking from the pros,(not me) ) the necro wouldn't be unbalanced.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 27, 2006 02:18 PM

yeah, rising liches would be cool. Too bad it'd totally destroy the gameplay, since necro would destroy anything

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law558
law558


Adventuring Hero
posted June 27, 2006 02:47 PM

Quote:
yeah, rising liches would be cool. Too bad it'd totally destroy the gameplay, since necro would destroy anything


Not if the necromany ability was nerfed.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted June 27, 2006 03:41 PM

I think raising Liches would be overpowered, because the Lich is the best level 5 unit (or one of them). Still, as has been discussed before, raising other units would be a possibility. One model would be something like this (numbers would need testing to find suitable levels):

Basic Necromancy: Raises 5 % Skeletons.
Advanced Necromancy: Raises 5 % Skeletons and 3 % Zombies.
Expert Necromancy: Raises 5 % Skeletons, 3 % Zombies and 2 % Ghosts.
Ultimate Necromancy: Raises 5 % Skeletons, 3 % Zombies, 2 % Ghosts and 1 % Vampires.

For each Necromancy Amplifier (or what it's called in the new game, I don't remember), you could increase each by, say, +1 %, or perhaps more ballanced, by a 20 % raise (that is, 5 % > 6 % > 7.2 % > 8.6 % and so forth) - the latter would be more ballance, because Vampire production would otherwise go like 1 % > 2 % > 3 % > 4 % etc, whereas a fractional raise will make it 1 % > 1.2 % > 1.4 % > 1.7 % etc. The same improvement system would come from Skills and Abilities.

One would have to consider whether raising percentage should be based on number of creatures or on Hit Points. This is important when fighting high level creatures - thus, 10 Black dragons corresponds to 2400 HP - so they would either transform into 1 Skeleton (based on numbers) or 20 Skeletons, 4 Zombies and 6 Ghosts (based on HP) (with expert Necromancy). One might find it somewhat arbitrary to raise 30 creatures from the corpses of 10 Black Dragons - a solution might be a combination of both - raising based on Hit Points, but limiting by numbers, so that the 10 Black Dragons would become 6 Ghosts and 4 Zombies. Anyway, the whole concept of raising a Black Dragon as a Zombie (or a Skeleton) is rather absurd in itself, so perhaps one should simply not care about common sense.


The power of changing this would be, that one could improve the other creatures to make them actually usefull. This could go something like:

Skeleton: Nerf with ranged penalty like Assassin, but give 50 % damage reduction from shooters because of Skeletal nature.

Zombies: Increase speed by 1, and increase Defence to 3 or 4 to make them tougher.

Ghosts: Increase speed by 1. Change incorporeal ability from 50 % miss chance to 50 % damage reduction from none-magical weapons. Blessed weapons give full damage (= cast divine strength for full damage).

Wraiths: Give them Death Touch (= Death Stare) ability and make them Float (travels across obstacles and moat but not over walls).

Spectral Dragons: Give them Incorporeal ability (50 % damage reduction from none-magical attacks and weapons). Bone Dragons receive 50 % damage reduction from ranged attacks due to Skeletal nature.


The result of this would be a Necromancer army relying not solely on Skeletons to do damage. And to answer the question of Doomforge, of course I bring along my entire army when I play Necro - after all, I will need something to shield my Skeles ....

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