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| Thread: Irresistible magic - a knife with two edges |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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M4Carbine
Hired Hero
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posted August 05, 2006 06:23 AM |
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well, just another crappy skill for dungeon, adding on to their already mediocre skills.
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ismail222
Known Hero
The Cataclysm
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posted August 05, 2006 02:27 PM |
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Well we're not talking about real life here why dont we say that black dragons have an aura that stops magics and if ur saying power of earth then let them stop power of the elements and if ur talking about making sense then there'll be no game...it's not full with real things that makes sense,does undeads makes sense...?
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alchemist85
Hired Hero
Disciple(s II) of Desert
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posted August 06, 2006 02:00 PM |
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According to discussion about earth damage, I think that Nival programists wanted to stay with orginal 4 basic elements: air, water, air and earth. That's why they divided spells between those 4 elements. Of course you're right that some spells are controversial and (also IMO) they should be a combination of 2 elements, e.g. Meteor Shower - falling stones (earth) providing fire rain, so fire/earth 50/50.
Personally I wouldn't add physical damage to spells other than Fist of Wrath because that makes this spell unique, e.g. it's the only spell you can hurt Black Dragons with. I guess you wouldn't be glad seenig Meteor Shower killing your Dragons.
That's only my opinion, you don't have to agree 
BTW, isn't it quite offtopic??
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted August 07, 2006 09:20 AM |
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Quote:
The idea behind implosion is crushing force. That sounds like an earth force to me.
Implode: To collaps inward due to crushing pressure or force.
Earth is the power of crushing and gravitational forces. Imploison fits the bill.
Implo was an earth spell back in H3... but in all the MM games... Implo was an AIR spell...
(don't ask my why... i didn't develop the game...)
that reminds me... acid in MM was a water spell  ... maybe because acids are liquids?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 07, 2006 09:43 AM |
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acids themselves ain't liquids my friend  they're just diluted in water and that makes'em liquids
Acid should be acid. H4 elements were superior, it's more "logical" to say implosion is a chaos damage spell than earth spell.. if someone actually cares for that, of course, and if it makes any difference ^_^
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Finarfinn
Hired Hero
son of Finve
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posted August 07, 2006 11:46 AM |
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Quote:
oh yeah, in response to the origional post. To give irresistable spells to the one faction that has a creature immune to magic is realy stupid. That skill should have gone to the wizard, not the warlock. Makes much more sense for them to have it. Why would a factions special skill be the ability to hurt themselves?!? Very lame indeed. Booo I say to the developers on that one.
They instead should have a skill that makes them also more resistant to spells. Making them more like their god of a creature, the black dragon. Something like 10% spell resistance to creatures of their faction in their amy at first rank and 20, 30, and eventually 40% at ultimate.
I agree to your opinion. One of the most popular strategy in the previous parts - Black Dragons + Armageddon - is unworkable.Also, I think it is stupid to deal non-magic(physical) damage with spells.
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dfortae
Known Hero
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posted August 07, 2006 02:46 PM |
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My posts were from a physics stand point.
Also, the mention that anything would sucumb under pressure is right. I see physical force as unstoppable to anything if great enough. The comment about the stone spikes being physical when they hit, but Earth when cast, is 100% correct. It doesn't matter HOW the spikes are generated, they still hit the enemy with force. The ONLY thing that WOULD be immune to physical would be etherial things like the ghosts. They are in another "dimension" some of the time, so they aren't physically in the 3rd dimension (they're like a shadow of a 4D object). Just like if you shine a light on a 3D transparent cube, you'll get a 2D shadow which represents the 3D object.
Anyway, physics is physics, and I think they should have made it more real by following it. If they wanted black dragons or stone gargoyles to be immune to it, they should have made it so the caster fails to even cast it (as if silenced). But it is just a game, so I can give them some slack.
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caligno
Hired Hero
If zombies only had brains
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posted August 07, 2006 03:13 PM |
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Quote:
I agree to your opinion. One of the most popular strategy in the previous parts - Black Dragons + Armageddon - is unworkable.Also, I think it is stupid to deal non-magic(physical) damage with spells.
I think the majority of spells should be elemental damage, because thats what they pretty much are, a magical being conjuring an element to do what he wants it to. However, I think it adds to the strategic point of the game if you have at least 1 or 2 spells that do physical damage. That way your magically immune creature is never 100% safe, although the majority of spells are useless against it. Fist of wrath does pretty sad damage anyway.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 07, 2006 05:32 PM |
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Quote:
My posts were from a physics stand point.
Also, the mention that anything would sucumb under pressure is right. I see physical force as unstoppable to anything if great enough. The comment about the stone spikes being physical when they hit, but Earth when cast, is 100% correct. It doesn't matter HOW the spikes are generated, they still hit the enemy with force. The ONLY thing that WOULD be immune to physical would be etherial things like the ghosts. They are in another "dimension" some of the time, so they aren't physically in the 3rd dimension (they're like a shadow of a 4D object). Just like if you shine a light on a 3D transparent cube, you'll get a 2D shadow which represents the 3D object.
Anyway, physics is physics, and I think they should have made it more real by following it. If they wanted black dragons or stone gargoyles to be immune to it, they should have made it so the caster fails to even cast it (as if silenced). But it is just a game, so I can give them some slack.
I deffinitely think the idea of separating physical and magical damage holds merit. It would add a whole new layer of strategy to the concepts of magical damage and also magic immunities. Just like it would make sense to make creatures with magic immunity vulnerable to spells doing physical damage (and expanding the number of spells with this property to all earth spells and possibly to some extent to cold spells), it's a wonderful idea to make incorporeal creatures immune to spells doing physical damage (or at least give them a 50 % miss chance, just like normal physical attacks). Of course, one should be carefull to make too strong analogies between the game world and real world physical concepts - for instance, there is no such thing as fire immunity, all materials will be consumed when temperature is high enough, but it might still add some more strategic points to the game.
The elements could be separated something like this:
Earth: Does purely physical damage. Will harm creatures with magical immunities, but not incorporeal creatures.
Water: Does 50 % physical and 50 % cold damage. Physical damage will not affect incorporeal creatures, and cold damage will not affect mechanical and magic-immune creatures.
Fire: Does magical damage. Will harm incorporeal creatures, but will not harm creatures will magic immunity.
Air: Does magical damage. Same as fire (or one could come up with some other property).
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 07, 2006 06:15 PM |
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Quote:
The elements could be separated something like this:
Earth: Does purely physical damage. Will harm creatures with magical immunities, but not incorporeal creatures.
Water: Does 50 % physical and 50 % cold damage. Physical damage will not affect incorporeal creatures, and cold damage will not affect mechanical and magic-immune creatures.
Fire: Does magical damage. Will harm incorporeal creatures, but will not harm creatures will magic immunity.
Air: Does magical damage. Same as fire (or one could come up with some other property).
I must disagree. Making Black Dragons and Steel Golems take 100% damage from devastating spells like Meteor Shower and Implosion, renders the Magic Resistance a joke of an ability for them. And that is something they rely on. Earth aligned spells are the ones doing most damage.
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caligno
Hired Hero
If zombies only had brains
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posted August 07, 2006 06:36 PM |
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Quote:
I must disagree. Making Black Dragons and Steel Golems take 100% damage from devastating spells like Meteor Shower and Implosion, renders the Magic Resistance a joke of an ability for them. And that is something they rely on. Earth aligned spells are the ones doing most damage.
Problems like this would need to be looked at, however there could be a simple fix. A rewording of their abilities could be done. For golems magical damage could still be reduced by 75% and physical damage from spells reduced by 25 or 50%.
As for black dragons something similar could be done to make them less prone to it, however the whole point of making earth damage physical is to attack those magically immune creatures, so making them completely immune to earth as well would defeat the purpose.
But I agree with golems relying on anti-magic to survive, as for the black dragons, its more of a perk in my opinion.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 07, 2006 08:27 PM |
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Quote:
Problems like this would need to be looked at, however there could be a simple fix. A rewording of their abilities could be done. For golems magical damage could still be reduced by 75% and physical damage from spells reduced by 25 or 50%.
As for black dragons something similar could be done to make them less prone to it, however the whole point of making earth damage physical is to attack those magically immune creatures, so making them completely immune to earth as well would defeat the purpose.
But I agree with golems relying on anti-magic to survive, as for the black dragons, its more of a perk in my opinion.
Earth spells do clearly the most damage of Destructive spells and that is their function. There are ways to defend against them at the moment, for example Wizard can make artifacts (can save your butt against a warlock!) and Heroes can take abilities to protect their creatures against those spells or buy artifacts. That is tactics.
Spells being physical will mean no one can protect from them, which really is not a good thing. I like Magic Fist for doing physical damage, but it is a level 1 spell in an otherwise not so good Magic School.
Ofcourse everything can be changed, including new artifacts and Hero abilities etc. But it needs a lot more work than it seems at first and I find that a worse way than how it is now. Just my pov, though.
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caligno
Hired Hero
If zombies only had brains
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posted August 07, 2006 09:18 PM |
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Edited by caligno at 21:20, 07 Aug 2006.
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Not neccesarily, magic resistance would still apply because it is a magic spell being cast, it just would deal physical damage if hit. So abilities like the one in the luck line (15% chance to resist spell) and all the artifacts that give a chance to resist spells would still work, its just that artifacts and abilites that reduce 'spell damage' wouldn't work on earth magic.
You could somehow include defense in the casting of all earth magic spells as well, fist of wrath and the bee swarm wouldn't apply, but you could have earth damage be reduced by 1% for every defense point, or something along those lines.
I am not saying this is what should be done, I am just throwing out ideas to add a little more complexity and perhaps physical realism, although a Might and "magic" game isn't supposed to be completely real, I think small things like this add a little to those who enjoy the smaller details.
EDIT: Also, remember that the defense ability reduces physical damage by 30%, aka it would reduce earth damage as well. So there are still many defenses against it.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 07, 2006 11:36 PM |
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Guys magic causes magical damage weapons physical,period.Do you really think you can change basic rpg rules?If you do try to make your own and apply them there,who knows it may even be successful.Or wait for an H5 wog.As for this one you can't apply logic as far as eg earth damage goes because it's as if you apply physics(natural) in unnatural forces.Some things are simply to be taken for granted as it happens with so many of our fields of experience even maths.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 08, 2006 12:25 PM |
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Quote:
Guys magic causes magical damage weapons physical,period.Do you really think you can change basic rpg rules?If you do try to make your own and apply them there,who knows it may even be successful.Or wait for an H5 wog.As for this one you can't apply logic as far as eg earth damage goes because it's as if you apply physics(natural) in unnatural forces.Some things are simply to be taken for granted as it happens with so many of our fields of experience even maths.
Well, magic does magical damage, except for those spells that do physical damage, like Fist Of Wrath ... And whoever sais it has to be that way? But never mind, it was just an idea, I know it's not gonna happen in this game, but I still think it would add something to the game.
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caligno
Hired Hero
If zombies only had brains
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posted August 08, 2006 06:07 PM |
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Quote:
Guys magic causes magical damage weapons physical,period.Do you really think you can change basic rpg rules?If you do try to make your own and apply them there,who knows it may even be successful.Or wait for an H5 wog.As for this one you can't apply logic as far as eg earth damage goes because it's as if you apply physics(natural) in unnatural forces.Some things are simply to be taken for granted as it happens with so many of our fields of experience even maths.
No not completely. Abilities add spell damages to attacks, some spells to physical damage, etc etc.
And I am not saying I want it changed in this game, I am just suggesting for arguments sake a different system that could add a little more strategy and depth to the game.
And yes, I know how many things are taken for granted, especially in games involving magic... if you can't take things for granted in that youre going to have some serious issues with gameplay.
And believe me, being a Biologist, I have had to take many things for granted until we have the technology to explain it
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Izzachar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 08, 2006 09:53 PM |
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Edited by Izzachar at 21:58, 08 Aug 2006.
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Am I the only one not seeing the difference in a magical created stone spike and a magical created lightning-bolt or ice-bolt??
I mean in this game earth -> stone spikes is an element it is as magical or unmagical as an icebolt wich is consisting of the water element. Or if there would be ice spikes would that seem more equal? Isnt a large iceblock hitting you as physical as a big rock hitting you? Well the only difference here is that both the rock and iceblock can be created by magic or not. Its just another element and an element in this game can be controlled by magic and this makes it qualify as magic hence can be resisted with magic resistance. As for connecting it to the real world in what way would a stone spike be less magical then a lightning bolt? I even think the lighting bolt seems more natural then a stone spike comming from the ground.
The only thing I think is out of context here is the magical fist. How that one differs from the others is hard to tell. Its not considerd as an element though still its created by magic.
Just my opinion. And its a game  It think they managed really good with the balance. So why change it?? Having immune black dragons + empowered armageddon at the same time is tempting but there might be a reason why that doesnt work you know
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 08, 2006 10:37 PM |
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There is a difference between causing direct damage through a spell (like a lightning bolt, or fire ball) or damage caused by something manipulated through magic.
In the case of an Ice Bolt, you could say that the magic has condensated the water in the air to form a tangible object, an object which then plummets down on the victim below to cause damage. In the case of Stone Spikes, the magic shapes the earth and makes it thrust upwards. The shapes and jagged edges of the spikes (as formed by the spell) then consequently damage whoever happens to be standing on top of it.
It is this difference that doesn't make sense when coupled with resistance against the respective element. You can try and resist the magical fire of a fire ball, but how can you resist the magic that shaped a stone spike? In the first case, magic energy is directly damaging the victim(s), in the second case magic energy indirectly damages the victim(s).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 09, 2006 12:06 AM |
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There are some aspects of this - magic, resistance, direct damage, magical damage etc. - that can be seen from many angles. Actually, what I would think made most sense from a PHYSICAL stand would be to separate not Earth spells form the other elemental spells, but rather to look at it from another point of view: Take the Black Dragon. The Black Dragon is immune to magic, which means you can't target it with a spell. Ok, that's a property, and therefore it cannot be targeted with Weakness or Slow, just like it can't be targeted with Divine Strength or Haste. The Destructive spells are something quite different, however. Whether you use Stone Spikes, Ice Bolt or Fireball, that Black Dragon is not the TARGET as such. The magical force creatures something - that be spikes, a block of ice or an explosion of fire - which is a pure condensation of elemental energy not ON the Dragon, but you can say AROUND the Dragon.
Thus, if the Black Dragon will take damage from a pike, or will take damage from a blow, or will take damage from freezing cold or searing fire, the Dragon ought take damage from spells recreating these effects, no matter how resistant the Dragon is to magic. After all, the Dragon will take damage from a illusionary unit created through Phantom Forces, and the Dragon will take extra damage from a unit affected by Divine Strength - which makes sense, because these spells are not targeted ON the Dragon, but create an effect that is subsequently affecting the Dragon through physical interaction.
Therefore, the Dragon ought to take damage from Stone Spikes, Fireball, Ice Bolt and Lightning bolt EXCEPT if the Dragon has some generic property that makes it immune to that particular element. Consider for instance Obsidian Gargoyles: They are made of stone, and are therefore not affected by Fire, Cold or Lightning. Ergo, they are immune to these spells, which has nothing to do with Magical Immunity - the spell is formed, it just does nothing to the Gargoyle. Likewise, Elementals will not take damage from their generic element, which makes sense - this is an elemental immunity. If the game should be completely consistent, it therefore should take one of the following approaches:
- Black Dragons are immune to all magic, and will not be targeted by spells that affect the Dragon, but will take damage from spells that creates a physical effect that may harm the Dragon (Fireball, Ice Bolt, Stone Spikes, Meteor Shower, Lightning Bolt etc.)
or
- Black Dragons are immune to all magic AND all elements. Black Dragons therefore will not be targeted by any spells and will not take damage from damaging spells. The latter approach would also take care of the problem with Black Dragons and Armageddon with Irrestitable Magic, because IM would allow you to have a chance at targeting the Dragon with a spell (blessing or curse) but you still won't be able to do elemental damage to the it.
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heroes_lunatic
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 09, 2006 01:23 AM |
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continuing with this train of thought that anything manipulated by magic isn't nessesarily magical...the giant fist spell might just be someone's giant fist that the mages stole and teleported above the target
it all makes sence if you overthink it
PS: the dungeon faction has the strongest creatures as it is, and besides, your precious shadow dragons are still immune to almost all enemy attacks
i remember heroes 3 when i had to fight a person who had dragons and armageddon spell
i had solmyr, the mage city, and a holy grail, and it still took like two hours of running around and switching castles to win
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Week of the cuckoo - a week when cuckoos sing all day and night.
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