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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Sylvan: Insight
Thread: Sylvan: Insight This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted September 30, 2006 06:11 PM
Edited by Ambidext at 02:44, 04 Oct 2006.

Sylvan: Insight

Ok after experimenting for around 2 weeks and learning it from more experienced players as well as my own mistakes in game, I am ready to right a guide for Sylvan to new players or players new to Sylvan who wish to learn this fascinating faction.

Town: Sylvan

Heroes
Anwen (Sword of Sylana)
Dirael (Swarm Queen)
Gilraen (Blade Master)
Ossir (Master of the Hunt)
Talanar (Elven Fury)
Vinrael (Battle-hardened)
Wyngaal (Swift Striker)
Ylthin (Unicorn Maiden)

Creatures
Pixies / Sprites - Flyer, cleanser
Blade Dancers / War Dancers - Melee unit
Hunters / Master Hunters - Shooters, keep them alive!
Druids / Elder Druids - Casters
Unicorns / Silver Unicorns - Melee, magic protection
Treants / Ancient Treants - Tankers!
Green Dragons / Emerald Dragons - Flyer

Guide
When I start off a multiplayer game, I normally choose the resource bonus. I would go for Ossir, unless I am facing a human opponent using Sylvan as well. I would propose we both don't use Ossir. Another very useful hero is Talanar... easily abusable at the start, split your Blade Dancers into stacks of 1 and fill them up. Sacrifice them to let your main stack do more damage.
Ossir is incredibly powerful, especially at high-end levels. Lv20 Ossir gives approximately +15 attack and +22 defense to Master Hunters. I will further elaborate later why this is no joke.
Now, depending on the map you're playing, some will start your town off at lv3/4, some just lv1. I would suggest building in this order: Tavern, Faerie Trees/Battledance Terrace, Town Hall, Battledance Terrace/Faerie Trees, Hunters' Cabin, Mage Guild, Blooming Grove and finally Stone Ring on week one. Skip those that are already built, naturally. Also, this is just a guide. What you build should also be determined if there's a hero in town and if he needs anything. You will need alot of wood in the first week. More than 30. Get your sawmill before anything else. If Master Gremlins/Skeleton Archers/Assasins/Sprites guard the starting mines... just restart game. Unless you are the sporting kind. =p
What I would do is to recruit another hero and gather all Sylvan forces under Ossir. If you find your troops too little, recruit a third hero. If it's Sylvan, good. More to stack on Ossir. If not, hope it's a tier 1 speciality hero. They're usually good for clearing starting mines and those tier 1 creatures guarding minor resources.
By week 2, aim to have your Treant Arches and Citadel built. Even better if you can go for a castle. Week 2 is when you can significantly explore more and kill more. You should have 10-20 Hunters and several Druids. Keep them in the back lines. Not much to be said, but alot to be done for the player.
Week 3 you should get your Castle and Capitol up. Don't worry because the AI comp usually comes after the first month, so with a Capitol you should be able to finish recruiting all your stuff. Here's the tricky part. Most first time Sylvan players will go for the Dragon Altar. A very bad move. The 8k gold, gems and crystals spent, I'd rather use them to upgrade the rest. Why? Because Green Dragons are weak. They're fast, but weak. Ressembling figures to the Sorceress' Phoenixes in H2. Go for Treants. Their HP and defense ratings won't lose out to a Green Dragon... and their numbers are definately more! So they will be able to take damage, as well as tie melee/flying creatures to them. The only drawback is their lacking damage. However this is easily made up for by Elder Druids, and Hunters if you're using Ossir. Under Ossir, Hunters are really not to be triffled with. I'll do anything to kill Ossir's Hunters if I were the opponent. I'd do anything to reduce Hunter casualties if I'm playing Ossir. Simple as that. I remembered in a certain battle, the AI player managed to reduce my Master Hunters from 133 to 36. Tied down by Ancient Treants near my Hunters, they killed 4 Green Dragons in their double shot attack(first shot with luck rolled on, killed 3, and the second shot killed another 1). Your main force should consist of Sprites, War Dancers, Master Hunters, Elder Druids, Silver Unicorns and Ancient Treants. Don't get the wrong idea; build up Dragon Alter when you have the excess resources, but don't recruit them until you have a pack of Emerald Dragons. The force I suggested with Ancient Treants tanking and Master Hunters shooting down the opponent should be able to kill off most armies even with several/pack of tier 7 creatures(Treant Saplings give you the extra Treants). Recruit your Emerald Dragons when you think they're numerous and threatening. That's the beauty of Sylvan. Finishing their tier 7s while you build up yours.

Written with the help of:
Age of Heroes
and those who helped me in the thread 'Some help neeeded'. Thanks!

Comments/constructive criticism welcome.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 30, 2006 07:26 PM
Edited by Elvin at 19:32, 30 Sep 2006.

I especially enjoyed the part where you restart unless you are in a  sporting mood.Pretty enlightening Or where you negociate with the other guy for not taking Ossir.Seems like you are taking the easy way out.I agree that he has an edge but you should try to counter him instead of avoiding him eg use Wyngaal for your hunters to play first,get archery(Ossir will rarely have) and...pray for an extra luck roll Or take evasion,place m.hunters as favoured etc.Early ranged neutrals can be defeated by blade dancers esp if you have defence.Both as blockers and tanks they excell so you might want to get battledance terrace in 1st day.Don't know what map you play but by week 3 or 4 I am usually rushed(so long as there are no garrisons,tough neutrals).What also seems to work is to build resource silo 1-2 week so that:upg hunters will be possible early as will building the mystic pond.It is too much of an advantage if you exploit it if a bit random but unicorns/druids drain heavily your resources.However after lvl 5-6(hero) it is essential that you get only money from chests should you take this route.To go for dragons you'd have to get 15 gems and crystals which is a lot anyway so yes it would be better to put the little you'll have into upging.And they still must be built but if you plan to upg them too it'll take a while and give little in return unless you face a warlock.+2 initiative is always handy but still...I believe many other factions can and will do the same thing in the meantime so you might want to be on the lookout for those extra 10 devils(or whatever) that come out of the blue
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 30, 2006 07:39 PM

Hey, that's what I wanted to tell you some time ago Ambidext: You can only restart if you get certain creatures in your way. You didn't want to believe me

nice job

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 30, 2006 07:50 PM
Edited by Elvin at 20:01, 30 Sep 2006.

Quote:
Hey, that's what I wanted to tell you some time ago Ambidext: You can only restart if you get certain creatures in your way. You didn't want to believe me

nice job


Truth be told if you play peninsula and lots of master hunters block you from the cave you are pretty much screwed no matter what you have Still early sprites,skelie archers,m.gremlins can be defeated,you just have some losses.But unless you have hunters on you,you don't lose much and can soon recover.Anyways pas mal!
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 30, 2006 08:44 PM

Well.. not exactly, you know. All you really need is a tent, expert warmachines and a careful play to avoid any loses. Kaspar and Deleb (if she was lucky to get the tent early) can kill those hunters with nearly no units. Havaz comes close, if he has a tent skill. haven can minimize the loses with squires and battle diving gryphs. Dungeon can sacrifice a bit of (not needed anyway) assassins (assuming you've chosen vayshan) and kill them with spells.
Only Sylvan is truly SCREWED.

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Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted October 01, 2006 08:55 AM
Edited by Ambidext at 12:35, 01 Oct 2006.

Sorry for double post. =.=

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Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted October 01, 2006 08:57 AM
Edited by Ambidext at 08:58, 01 Oct 2006.

Well Elvin and Doom, getting a resource silo by week 2 or ballista with basic War Machines takes too much to do. There would be barely enough gold to get your Capitol, Castle and Treants by the 3rd week. Gems aren't that much needed because you shouldn't be getting Dragons early game. One very important thing to look out for is be cost effective. Is the Ballista that important? With 5500g I could recruit 1-2 Treants and a couple more Druids which would be much better. The starting gems plus loose resources on the floor is enough to last you all the way to Treant Arches. Sometimes a gem mine is poorly guarded as well.

Well Sylvan needs to restart more is simply because their starting troops have poor hp + low in numbers. They're efficient fighters, with Pixies having no enemy retaliation and Blade Dancers 2-5 damage for a tier 2. But they still die fast. Unlike Peasants and Gremlins, which do not lose much hp to Pixies, they come in huge numbers. Sprites' Wasp Swarm and Assasins' poison will be a real bane at the start. Nothing you can do to reduce losses. But actually gremlins and skele archies are ok. I'm only suggesting restart if you want a perfect game or you're facing a Dungeon AI. The most wonderful thing about Sylvan is still the fact they can fight effectively against any full-fledged army without Green Dragons, and Ossir is the key to doing so.

Sylvan ain't screwed. I used to think like you... other factions have it easy at the start except Sylvan. But when I was 1v1ing my cousin... he was using Necro and having a much harder time than me. Every faction has a hard time begining, all have their own problems and a fair share of fans complaining. Bottomline? Don't complain... deal with it. Explore and find out the strength of each faction and exploit it. =]

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 01, 2006 10:29 AM

so I did with inferno, which is strangely considered as a "weak" castle. Lol?

Anyways, the ballista for sylvan isnt very useful. Its expensive to get, the skill is very unlikely to appear and sylvan heroes do not have a lot of attack - unlike infernal ones - making the ballista rather a poor choice.



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sylvian_prince
sylvian_prince


Hired Hero
the ranged hanter
posted October 01, 2006 10:47 AM

nice guide....but...try to get 30 wood on week 1 when you play on heroik level!!! when you start with 10! and resourses gave you another 5! the colculation is very simple! 15 to hunters+ 5 to pixes +10 for batle dancers+5 market place+5 fot tavern (if you not get it free ) and +5 for mage guilde 45!!! for basic without any apgrade! the wood mine must be taken on day 1!!! no mater what gards it! better lose al your army (olmoast) but have hunters on week1.... as for osir there are many good heroes to im not sure ossir is the best....i prefer to buy him every week with 4-5 hunters and dismis him..... what you guise think obout this?

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 01, 2006 12:32 PM
Edited by Elvin at 12:33, 01 Oct 2006.

Quote:
Well Elvin and Doom, getting a resource silo by week 2 or ballista with basic War Machines takes too much to do. There would be barely enough gold to get your Capitol, Castle and Treants by the 3rd week. Gems aren't that much needed because you shouldn't be getting Dragons early game. One very important thing to look out for is be cost effective. Is the Ballista that important? With 5500g I could recruit 1-2 Treants and a couple more Druids which would be much better. The starting gems plus loose resources on the floor is enough to last you all the way to Treant Arches. Sometimes a gem mine is poorly guarded as well.

Well Sylvan needs to restart more is simply because their starting troops have poor hp + low in numbers. They're efficient fighters, with Pixies having no enemy retaliation and Blade Dancers 2-5 damage for a tier 2. But they still die fast. Unlike Peasants and Gremlins, which do not lose much hp to Pixies, they come in huge numbers. Sprites' Wasp Swarm and Assasins' poison will be a real bane at the start. Nothing you can do to reduce losses. But actually gremlins and skele archies are ok. I'm only suggesting restart if you want a perfect game or you're facing a Dungeon AI. The most wonderful thing about Sylvan is still the fact they can fight effectively against any full-fledged army without Green Dragons, and Ossir is the key to doing so.

Sylvan ain't screwed. I used to think like you... other factions have it easy at the start except Sylvan. But when I was 1v1ing my cousin... he was using Necro and having a much harder time than me. Every faction has a hard time begining, all have their own problems and a fair share of fans complaining. Bottomline? Don't complain... deal with it. Explore and find out the strength of each faction and exploit it. =]


Yes it is expensive.But if you can find chests in your starting area it is worth it later on:upg hunters faster,mystic pond(5 of rare resource or 10 wood/ore),no wood requirement.Plus apart from dungeon and necro only sylvan has so cheap tier 4,5,6 dwellings and could do with a little less gold.But hey,you won't build it right away and thus can judge whether you will find enough gold or a gem mine.Upgs and dragon dwelling will come easier though you may have to buy everything except unicorns-just an alternative way of play.As druids,unicorns and treants require 11 gems if you get +6 from resource bonus and/or find gem piles you may want to skip resource silo.
Even 20 war dancers,30 pixies more won't turn a game against dungeon,seek another advantage.And you should consider getting other heroes even just to see how sylvan fares without hunters on day 1.You may find other powerful heroes exist too.And...What?Necro is easier to build than sylvan,just build wights before ghosts and you're fine.I'd say things are pretty balanced in earlygame but there is still the matter with academy...
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Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted October 01, 2006 12:42 PM

Quote:
nice guide....but...try to get 30 wood on week 1 when you play on heroik level!!! when you start with 10! and resourses gave you another 5! the colculation is very simple! 15 to hunters+ 5 to pixes +10 for batle dancers+5 market place+5 fot tavern (if you not get it free ) and +5 for mage guilde 45!!! for basic without any apgrade! the wood mine must be taken on day 1!!! no mater what gards it! better lose al your army (olmoast) but have hunters on week1.... as for osir there are many good heroes to im not sure ossir is the best....i prefer to buy him every week with 4-5 hunters and dismis him..... what you guise think obout this?


Ok I don't play Heroic. I find it kind of pointless. Depending on certain maps, getting 50 wood within week 1 isn't that hard. You start off with 20, you get another 12 until day 7 and that makes 32. The sawmill normally starts with 2 piles of wood. Assuming they're 6 each, that's 44 total. Don't tell me there's no more wood on the rest of the map. I won't spend 3k just to get Ossir's Hunters. I want the Hunters UNDER the command of Ossir. That makes all the difference. If you want your Master Hunters' stack to out-damage the Emerald Dragons' stack, Ossir is the way to do it.
Ossir is something like Sylvan's very own Klaus. Without him I just find something missing in my army. As if it's not doing damage like it should.

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hobowu
hobowu


Known Hero
posted October 01, 2006 01:45 PM

Quote:

Ossir is something like Sylvan's very own Klaus. Without him I just find something missing in my army. As if it's not doing damage like it should.


Or, you mean doing overpowered damage that you shouldn't do and couldn't do with any other hero IMHO, Klaus should be banned...! Unbalances game but then, so is starting with Deleb in small maps...
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 01, 2006 01:50 PM

Klaus has been nerfed in 1.3 - again. Don't panic, no need to fear him that much in this version.

Same for deleb. She is meant for creeping, not rushing. It's actually very easy to defeat rushing deleb.

As for ossir: I don't see any imbalances here, too. Yes, hunters will score high damage, but they are still same low-hp hunters and those milions of marksmen will kill them in one shot and you can do nothing about it.

I'll repeat myself one more time: dougal and training is the problem of this game

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Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted October 01, 2006 03:39 PM

Oh really? Lol depends on how you protect your Hunters. That's why I will always split my Treants into 2 stacks, sorry if I didn't mention in my 'guide'. Since I won't be using Green Dragons, I split my Treants. They're near impossible to kill under a Ranger already. Make use of these advantages and score more units rooted to your Treants!

I don't think Marksmen can kill Hunters in one shot... They still tier 2 and Rangers have always uber high defense. It's the other way round. =]

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 01, 2006 06:05 PM

eww. You've never played vs. a good haven abuser, I guess?

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TemjinGold
TemjinGold


Known Hero
posted October 01, 2006 06:40 PM

Quote:
Oh really? Lol depends on how you protect your Hunters. That's why I will always split my Treants into 2 stacks, sorry if I didn't mention in my 'guide'. Since I won't be using Green Dragons, I split my Treants. They're near impossible to kill under a Ranger already. Make use of these advantages and score more units rooted to your Treants!

I don't think Marksmen can kill Hunters in one shot... They still tier 2 and Rangers have always uber high defense. It's the other way round. =]


Several hundred marksmen won't have any trouble killing your 40-50 hunters in one shot.

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cantaresg
cantaresg


Known Hero
posted October 01, 2006 07:29 PM

Make the cost of training peasants to archers higher. Or go for defence-evasion plus expert light - deflect missle.

Besides low damage, Treants have another deadly weakness - low initiative.

I'm trying the war-machine + imbue ballista now. Not too useful at the moment I'd say (I'm at 2nd week and the ballista costed me a bomb!). And the third shot of imbued ballista is typically a waste of mana.

I'm thinking of using dark magic with imbue arrow (ideal for rangers with such low spell power), but dark magic is not availabe at higher levels in a Sylvan town. What are your suggested skill line-up for Rangers then?

My suggestion:
Light magic - master of wrath, master of abjuration
Luck - soldier's luck, elven luck, dead man's curse (or resistance for your Ossir)
Defense- vitality, last stand, stand your ground (great skill for Ancient Treant)
Attack - Battle Frenzy, Nature's Wrath, Archery

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 01, 2006 09:38 PM
Edited by Elvin at 21:39, 01 Oct 2006.

Quote:
Make the cost of training peasants to archers higher. Or go for defence-evasion plus expert light - deflect missle.

Besides low damage, Treants have another deadly weakness - low initiative.

I'm trying the war-machine + imbue ballista now. Not too useful at the moment I'd say (I'm at 2nd week and the ballista costed me a bomb!). And the third shot of imbued ballista is typically a waste of mana.

I'm thinking of using dark magic with imbue arrow (ideal for rangers with such low spell power), but dark magic is not availabe at higher levels in a Sylvan town. What are your suggested skill line-up for Rangers then?

My suggestion:
Light magic - master of wrath, master of abjuration
Luck - soldier's luck, elven luck, dead man's curse (or resistance for your Ossir)
Defense- vitality, last stand, stand your ground (great skill for Ancient Treant)
Attack - Battle Frenzy, Nature's Wrath, Archery


If you are to take warmachines you might as well get destructive magic with mastery.You imbue arrow and can say freeze/stun with both hero and ballista giving you a nice initiative benefit(icebolt works better  than lightning with low power and freezing is better than stunning).That way you can still get luck and defence which are obligatory for sylvan and maximize your damage output(attack is rare anyway).You can't hope to use high lvl spells due to mana costs and as you said dark is rare and a waste of mana after the units have been already cursed.Your skill suggestion is very good though since you won't get attack that often you may find yourself substituting it with logistics or leadeship.
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Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted October 02, 2006 09:59 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Oh really? Lol depends on how you protect your Hunters. That's why I will always split my Treants into 2 stacks, sorry if I didn't mention in my 'guide'. Since I won't be using Green Dragons, I split my Treants. They're near impossible to kill under a Ranger already. Make use of these advantages and score more units rooted to your Treants!

I don't think Marksmen can kill Hunters in one shot... They still tier 2 and Rangers have always uber high defense. It's the other way round. =]


Several hundred marksmen won't have any trouble killing your 40-50 hunters in one shot.


By the time you have several hundred Marksmen I will also have 200 Master Hunters. Tell ya what. I'll let you kill 50 of them. I'll take out the stack next attack round. And don't forget, Hunters have higher Initiative. So what're we talking about? Not neglecting Luck rolls and Avenger, I can easily kill 300-350 in one attack round. If I'm facing a Haven player it's 2 shooters vs 2 shooters. I will definately go for the shooters first since my Ancient Treants will be mostly blocking the battlefield. I'll only fear the Imperial Griffons because it's practically a mind game. Another bigger threat I see are Dragons. Their double-hex attack can easily melt my Master Hunters. Especially Emerald Dragons. They're freaking fast.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 02, 2006 11:04 AM

Quote:

By the time you have several hundred Marksmen I will also have 200 Master Hunters. Tell ya what. I'll let you kill 50 of them. I'll take out the stack next attack round. And don't forget, Hunters have higher Initiative. So what're we talking about? Not neglecting Luck rolls and Avenger, I can easily kill 300-350 in one attack round. If I'm facing a Haven player it's 2 shooters vs 2 shooters. I will definately go for the shooters first since my Ancient Treants will be mostly blocking the battlefield. I'll only fear the Imperial Griffons because it's practically a mind game. Another bigger threat I see are Dragons. Their double-hex attack can easily melt my Master Hunters. Especially Emerald Dragons. They're freaking fast.


No you won't.Utilising training you can have these numbers in several weeks while at the time sylvan will have about 50.Now take into account the squires next to marksmen that reduce ranged damage on them by 50%,the ranged penalty for hunters,the low ranger att vs the high knight def and the fact that marksmen always attack blessed for 8 dam(hero plays before them).Haven continues to have a great advantage no matter what unfortunately.
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