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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Sylvan: Insight
Thread: Sylvan: Insight This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 02, 2006 06:02 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 18:06, 02 Oct 2006.

Just as elvin said. No deflect missle - your hunters are dead after first turn. Sorry. Don't even try the theorycraft, you WON'T have 200 master hunters when haven has 400 marksmen. On maps that feature a second castle, you will be rushed with ~600 marksmen at week 6 and you have even less to say then.

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TemjinGold
TemjinGold


Known Hero
posted October 02, 2006 06:14 PM


By the time you have several hundred Marksmen I will also have 200 Master Hunters. Tell ya what. I'll let you kill 50 of them. I'll take out the stack next attack round. And don't forget, Hunters have higher Initiative. So what're we talking about? Not neglecting Luck rolls and Avenger, I can easily kill 300-350 in one attack round. If I'm facing a Haven player it's 2 shooters vs 2 shooters. I will definately go for the shooters first since my Ancient Treants will be mostly blocking the battlefield. I'll only fear the Imperial Griffons because it's practically a mind game. Another bigger threat I see are Dragons. Their double-hex attack can easily melt my Master Hunters. Especially Emerald Dragons. They're freaking fast.


So wait, YOUR emeralds are gonna melt YOUR master hunters?

Seriously, you need to get out there and play some good people. CPU battles don't cut it. No Haven player worth his salt is ever gonna let the game last long enough for you to get 200 master hunters. Like the others say, Dougal is gonna have ~600 markmens at your front step by week 6 or so. Just stop and think for a moment what you normally have by week 6.

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cantaresg
cantaresg


Known Hero
posted October 02, 2006 07:54 PM

Quote:
Just as elvin said. No deflect missle - your hunters are dead after first turn. Sorry. Don't even try the theorycraft, you WON'T have 200 master hunters when haven has 400 marksmen. On maps that feature a second castle, you will be rushed with ~600 marksmen at week 6 and you have even less to say then.


What do you mean by no deflect missle?

There is no doubt about those rushing with 600 marksmen. Haven is definitely capable of doing that. The only counter strategy I can come out with is a mass deflect missle. Without that, who can stand up against those marksmen (or legions of skeleton archers)?

Anyone has any counter strategies?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 02, 2006 07:56 PM

I mean that if deflect missle doesn't appear in the guild, you're pretty much helpless with sylvan.

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cantaresg
cantaresg


Known Hero
posted October 03, 2006 03:08 AM

Quote:
I mean that if deflect missle doesn't appear in the guild, you're pretty much helpless with sylvan.


I see. But that goes pretty much the same for other factions. Especially inferno and dungeon. Since they have the lowest chance of getting deflect missle. Dungeon have empowered spells that MAY help but what can inferno do?

Alternatively, use berserk, blind or puppet master and hopes that the knight fails to dispel (or if the knight had the earlier move).

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Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted October 03, 2006 04:16 AM
Edited by Ambidext at 06:17, 03 Oct 2006.

Quote:
No you won't.Utilising training you can have these numbers in several weeks while at the time sylvan will have about 50.Now take into account the squires next to marksmen that reduce ranged damage on them by 50%,the ranged penalty for hunters,the low ranger att vs the high knight def and the fact that marksmen always attack blessed for 8 dam(hero plays before them).Haven continues to have a great advantage no matter what unfortunately.


Do your maths. Ossir starts with 5 hunters on average. Week 1 - 12, week 2 - 20, week 3 - 31, week 4 - 46, week 5 - 61, week 6 - 75. That's assuming I'm not playing Dead Man's Lake. And if I do, which by the way, Dead Man's Lake happens to be a hot map for Mplayer. it'll be an additional 7 Hunters from week 2. 75 + 35 = 110. Yes I normally have that amount by week 6. And remember, Master Hunters get to shoot first. Warding Arrow? Hopefully. =] I don't lose Hunters normally in the early game. Avoiding the right fights and making strategic moves in battle helps alot.

And actually, I find alot of people over-estimating Hunters. Why do I say that? Every round of Duel, people always spend too much time and effort trying to kill my Master Hunters. By the time they're done, they've wasted too much troops and my 30 Silver Unicorns, 16 Ancient Treants and 40 Elder Druids still not touched. Won against a Siege Engineer with Ancient Treants and Elder Druids surviving.

But ok, I guess Elvin and Doom, it still is hard to win over an abusive Haven player. The game still isn't in balance yet. Not when there're 2-3 towns easily abused and there's nothing you can do about it unless you have a streak of luck(Deflect Missle). Here's I'm just discussing Sylvan strategies and ways to play better with Sylvan. I think, and hope, the archer rush of Doug will be nerfed soon. Oh yes, one thing you guys failed to consider. Haven requires hell lot of gold. Plus training Peasants into Marksmen? Do most maps have the gold to do it? Think again. By week 6, can you finish recruiting all in your castle? Sylvan can, and with surplus gold. With that I can easily divert all the chest resources into exp, having a higher lv hero. I'm not here to challenge you 2. Just questioning if you missed out something. By week 5 I normally have 100+ Master Hunters, 100+ Sprites, 60+ Blade Dancers, 50+ Elder Druids, 30+ Silver Unicorns and around 20 Ancient Treants with a lv16-18 Ossir. One thing I agree with you guys though, I need to play against more human players. But time confines me so.

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Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted October 03, 2006 04:18 AM
Edited by Ambidext at 04:19, 03 Oct 2006.

Quote:

By the time you have several hundred Marksmen I will also have 200 Master Hunters. Tell ya what. I'll let you kill 50 of them. I'll take out the stack next attack round. And don't forget, Hunters have higher Initiative. So what're we talking about? Not neglecting Luck rolls and Avenger, I can easily kill 300-350 in one attack round. If I'm facing a Haven player it's 2 shooters vs 2 shooters. I will definately go for the shooters first since my Ancient Treants will be mostly blocking the battlefield. I'll only fear the Imperial Griffons because it's practically a mind game. Another bigger threat I see are Dragons. Their double-hex attack can easily melt my Master Hunters. Especially Emerald Dragons. They're freaking fast.


So wait, YOUR emeralds are gonna melt YOUR master hunters?

Seriously, you need to get out there and play some good people. CPU battles don't cut it. No Haven player worth his salt is ever gonna let the game last long enough for you to get 200 master hunters. Like the others say, Dougal is gonna have ~600 markmens at your front step by week 6 or so. Just stop and think for a moment what you normally have by week 6.



Can you stop being a retard? I'm talking about fighting against a player with Dragons. Dude at least Doomforge and Elvin are making sensible posts and their talk of 600 Marksmen are really making me think. You're just posting bullshiet, or posting stuff people already said. Try some creativity yeah?

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cantaresg
cantaresg


Known Hero
posted October 03, 2006 07:21 AM

Suppose if we consider that Dougal and Ossir evens out in terms of attack, defense and speciality. And assuming that the numbers that you have provided are all correct, let's do some calculation.

Both your marksmen and master hunters are blessed with expert divine strength.

Total damage dealt by master hunters = 110 x 8 x 2 =1760
Ignoring range penalties, number of marksmen killed = 1760/10 = 176.

Number of marksmen left = 600-176 = 424
Total damage dealt by marksmen = 424 x 8 = 3392
Total number of master hunters killed = 242

Even factoring in the range penalty, the master hunters will be wiped out by the marksmen. This is true even if master hunters have good luck on both attacks, if the range penalty is factored in.
____________

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Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted October 03, 2006 09:23 AM

Is it that easy to gather so many Marksmen? Oh yeah it's possible if you don't build the higher tier buildings. Haven needs alot of gold and because of that, Ossir's level will be higher than Doug if both players are equally skilled. And is the army effective with only 4 tiers of creatures?(I'm assuming Haven will only reach Tier 4 to do a successful rush due the the issue of gold, correct me if you think and know otherwise).

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 03, 2006 10:44 AM

Quote:
Is it that easy to gather so many Marksmen? Oh yeah it's possible if you don't build the higher tier buildings. Haven needs alot of gold and because of that, Ossir's level will be higher than Doug if both players are equally skilled. And is the army effective with only 4 tiers of creatures?(I'm assuming Haven will only reach Tier 4 to do a successful rush due the the issue of gold, correct me if you think and know otherwise).


No need to confine yourself to first 4 tiers unless you plan to rush.Time and gold is on haven's advantage as you said Ah about the lvl difference why do you think so?Of course master hunters are a lot better but Dougal also has archery,can bless that 2-8 dam which is lot and protect them from 1/2 of ranged damage with squires.He is not in a real disadvantage.
About hunters vs marksmen in a battle I forgot to point two things:Warding arrow won't work due to high hp difference and should the knight play first he can use divine guidance on the marksmen allowing them to act first.Can you believe I am irritated when I find even more possible advantages for haven? It's a tough battle to win with sylvan...Or any other for that matter.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.

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Ambidext
Ambidext


Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
posted October 03, 2006 11:10 AM

Well hope they nerf Haven more next patch. ;D

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TemjinGold
TemjinGold


Known Hero
posted October 03, 2006 03:18 PM

There's more: Even if your statement about Ossir being higher level than Dougal is correct, he would at most be 1-2 levels higher. However, the knight's primary stats are def/atk while Ossir's are def/knowledge so Dougal will have much higher "might" stats even at a lower level.

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 03, 2006 03:20 PM

Quote:


When I start off a multiplayer game, I normally choose the resource bonus.


I chooce it always too.
Quote:

I would go for Ossir, unless I am facing a human opponent using Sylvan as well. I would propose we both don't use Ossir. Another very useful hero is Talanar...


Talanar is the best secondary hero by far, also starts with a ballista. My Hero choices are Wyngaal (Attack is good + killer speciality), Ossir (obvious) or Ylthin (Light magic + boosts Unicorns). Out of the others I sometimes use Dirael, the spell is quite useful in the beginning and even later in the game. Vinrael might be ok, but i have found the beginning to be too diffivult with him.
Quote:

Now, depending on the map you're playing, some will start your town off at lv3/4, some just lv1. I would suggest building in this order: Tavern, Faerie Trees/Battledance Terrace, Town Hall, Battledance Terrace/Faerie Trees, Town Hall, Mage Guild, Blooming Grove and finally Stone Ring on week one.


You don't do Elves on week one? And if you start without tavern (level 1), there is no way in getting Stone Ring on week one (level 9).
Quote:

Most first time Sylvan players will go for the Dragon Altar. A very bad move. The 8k gold, gems and crystals spent, I'd rather use them to upgrade the rest. Why? Because Green Dragons are weak. They're fast, but weak.


That is true, but Greenies are the best weapon against neutral Master Hunters and other fast nasty shooters. Still it is true one generally makes a more efficent force with Treants & Hunters.
Quote:

Your main force should consist of Sprites, War Dancers, Master Hunters, Elder Druids, Silver Unicorns and Ancient Treants. Don't get the wrong idea; build up Dragon Alter when you have the excess resources, but don't recruit them until you have a pack of Emerald Dragons.


Hmm, so you upgrade all other creatures before the Altar? Can you remember what week is it that you usually build the Altar? I usually build the dragons earlier just to "grow up" It is quite cheap, and I sometimes use one Dragon to fly and block nasty shooters as explained earlier. The Dragon may die at some point but before that it has gotten me over many dangerous places and fights.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 03, 2006 08:01 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 20:05, 03 Oct 2006.

Quote:
Well hope they nerf Haven more next patch. ;D


everybody (except for haven players ofc) hopes for that since 1.0. But, suprisingly, nival keeps crippling every usable strategy, EXCEPT haven. More, they even buff it (through indirect buffs - like more expensive spells, which strongly weaken the mages while knights don't even need to do any magic with 100% reliable cleansing on paladins and all needed buffs on inquisitors..)

Worse, they can go for dark magic, leaving cleansing/blessing to their pals/inqs, making your hero cast cleansing-only, while their blessed/hasted/enduranced (by inquisitors) marksmen kill everything. And in case you didn't get cleansing.. whoops! Sprites ain't reliable cleansing casters, one shot and they're dead - even without dougal's help.

You cannot stun/slow/freeze/wasp swarm them (gets countered without any effort by divine guidance), too.

Sad balance indeed.


cantaresg, you forgot to include squires in your maths (which are ALWAYS there). In fact, the number of killed marksmen won't be 176 - it will be 88. 600 marksmen are available with second castle only, BUT even if you got second castle too, your stack will STILL die in one shot! What kind of folly is that? ~~

I'm a fan of balance, so I REALLY hope this no-skill marksmen strategy will finally die in 1.4/expansion.

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cantaresg
cantaresg


Known Hero
posted October 03, 2006 08:19 PM

Well, you can see I delibrately left the squires out to show that EVEN WITHOUT SQUIRES, the master hunters are outmatched. Need I say more? That's the saddest truth.

How about a triple balista imbued with ice bolt with master of ice? Very unreliable considering the cost of a balista and the difficulty in getting war machine, but it may effectively halt those marksmen to a complete stop.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 03, 2006 08:48 PM

Again: The counter is Divine guidance. Or divine imbalance. Whatever.

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Betruger
Betruger


Known Hero
empowered mind
posted October 03, 2006 09:30 PM

Quote:
If Master Gremlins/Skeleton Archers/Assasins/Sprites guard the starting mines... just restart game. Unless you are the sporting kind. =p


Hey, that is not true!
If that is the case, simply build mage's guild at day 1, and use the army of your 3rd hero from tavern + spells to get rid of them easily.
Remember that Sylvan has a guaranteed lvl 1 destructive spell, so you'll either get eldrith arrow or stone spikes, both of which are good for early creeping.

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Betruger
Betruger


Known Hero
empowered mind
posted October 03, 2006 09:37 PM

Quote:

Anyways, the ballista for sylvan isnt very useful. Its expensive to get, the skill is very unlikely to appear and sylvan heroes do not have a lot of attack - unlike infernal ones - making the ballista rather a poor choice.



Not really a poor choice. Sylvan get a fair ammount of knowdlege and the formula of damage done by ballista is (attack + knowdlege) * 5
at expert skill of course. Besides, imbue ballista skill is now rather useful, since warmachines have more HP.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 03, 2006 09:40 PM

Quote:
the formula of damage done by ballista is (attack + knowdlege) * 5 at expert skill of course.

hah, now I finally understand why inferno heroes, excelling in attack and knowledge, own with ballista so much

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TemjinGold
TemjinGold


Known Hero
posted October 04, 2006 01:22 AM

Quote:
Quote:

Anyways, the ballista for sylvan isnt very useful. Its expensive to get, the skill is very unlikely to appear and sylvan heroes do not have a lot of attack - unlike infernal ones - making the ballista rather a poor choice.



Not really a poor choice. Sylvan get a fair ammount of knowdlege and the formula of damage done by ballista is (attack + knowdlege) * 5
at expert skill of course. Besides, imbue ballista skill is now rather useful, since warmachines have more HP.


The problem isn't that it's a poor choice: It's that Sylvan heroes only have 2% chance of seeing the WM skill.

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