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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Is the black dragon still immune to magic in HOMM IV?
Thread: Is the black dragon still immune to magic in HOMM IV? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
StillShady
StillShady


Adventuring Hero
Your Ultimate Slayer
posted October 02, 2001 11:58 PM

Is the black dragon still immune to magic in HOMM IV?

I was just wondering if the are still immune to magic because if they were, how can a fairy dragon fight them by biting probably. Does anyone have a confirmation about this?
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RMS
RMS


Responsible
Legendary Hero
-ing yummy foods
posted October 03, 2001 12:02 AM

...not sure if they're still immune, but I don't see how they could not have any resistance at all...
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StillShady
StillShady


Adventuring Hero
Your Ultimate Slayer
posted October 03, 2001 12:05 AM

Well isn't that unbalanced if a Black Dragon have 1000+HP then also be immune to magic?
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Preserver
Preserver


Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
posted October 03, 2001 12:33 AM

I'm pretty sure they are... (Or maybe an electromagnetic schockwave from the destruction of Erathia has hit them!)
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StillShady
StillShady


Adventuring Hero
Your Ultimate Slayer
posted October 03, 2001 12:37 AM

I wish they weren't because if that's what's gonna happen then, it will be an ultimate killer. Just think of the current hit points the black dragon have already, a big advantage.
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RMS
RMS


Responsible
Legendary Hero
-ing yummy foods
posted October 03, 2001 12:48 AM

...I'm not sure if you realize this or not, but there are no longer going to be any super-strong creatures anymore, no matter how many hit points nor damage they inflict...the damage of attacker and defender both are calculated simultaneously...
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StillShady
StillShady


Adventuring Hero
Your Ultimate Slayer
posted October 03, 2001 12:53 AM

You have a point RMS! I was just wondering if they are still immune to magic. I'm curious!
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted October 03, 2001 08:19 AM
Edited By: Jenova on 3 Oct 2001

Magic Immunity for the Black Dragon would be a liability, not a bonus. Something with such a massive amount of HP would be able to withstand quite a few spells without casualty. If they were immune to magic, all your opponent would do instead would be to target someone else, someone weaker, which means casualties are certain and more serious.

That's why I loved Titans over BDs in H2. They had the same HP, but the Titans could usually survive Lightning Bolts and I end up losing nothing. When I had BDs, they couldn't target the BDs so they targetted my Minotaur Kings or Centaurs instead, and I lossed a lot more units than I would have if they hit could hit the Black Dragons.

Suppose BDs had 1000 HP, and Minotaurs had 50 HP (this is just for example's sake). A Lightning Bolt from the enemy would do 800 damage. The BD would obviously survive it with its massive HP. Would you rather lose 16 Minotaurs or "nothing"? With magic immunity, you don't have that option. Sorry.

Understand how magic immunity is not always an advantage now? Just because your best unit doesn't get hit by spells doesn't mean another stack won't get hit by them instead.. You will still take the damage unless your party is entirely consistent of black dragons (or whatever else is immune to magic).

This is the same as those crappy damage reduction artifacts like the Helm of Lightning. Half damage from Lightning spells. Useless. All the AI does is use cold spells instead. You do not get a damage reduction from lightning, because the AI decides not to use Lightning spells instead, which negates the whole purpose in having the artifact in the first place!! This is the same problem with the Ice cloak and Fire cloak. With AI that cheats, they are useless artifacts.

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Gravdragon
Gravdragon


Known Hero
Barbarian
posted October 03, 2001 09:50 AM

I think that the artifact in h3 who makes your units immune to lightning is highly effective. I was solmyr level 14-17 something. I had that artifact and my chain lighting did 2000+ damage to all nearly all units except my own. An the fact that the ai uses cold spells instead of air isnt that much of a problem because the air spells does so much more damage.
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted October 03, 2001 10:31 AM

I didn't play that much H3 (though I still bought it), but in H2, Cold Ray did 20x spell power, whereas Lightning Bolt did 25x spell power. The difference wasn't that big. You have an artifact for half damage from lightning? Instead of taking 12.5x dam, you take 20x from Cold Ray. That's because the computer magically knows what artifacts you have before they cast their spells.

And the artifacts introduced into the H2 expansion, Price of Loyalty.. The Cold heart or something. No cold damage taken, but double fire damage taken. These are even worse.. They're not pseudo-cursed, they're DOUBLE cursed. With the above artifact the CPU will never cast cold spells at you and will instead cast fire spells making you take double damage ALWAYS (as long as they have the spell). There is a fire heart as well, no fire damage, double cold damage. This is the same story. If you have these artifacts, get rid of them immediately, they do no good, all bad. Instead of it being a tradeoff which could benefit you or hurt you, it always hurts you. I guess it's only useful for multiplayer, but then very few people wanted to play with me multiplayer since it would take 30+ hours to beat a map with more than 2 people in it.

I never bought any of the expansions after Armageddon's Blade because at that point I had realized NWC was desperate and started milking their Heroes franchise with rehashes. Even the reviews said that they could hear "MOOO" coming out of NWC offices. Anyway, tell me if those expanions (including the crappy Chronicles legacy of milk) has any of these artifacts, but with fixed purposes.

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StillShady
StillShady


Adventuring Hero
Your Ultimate Slayer
posted October 03, 2001 06:44 PM

Great Comments Jenova, It depends how you play them!
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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted October 03, 2001 09:25 PM

I disagree

The Black Dragon's spell immunity is not a bad thing. It limits the options of your opponent. (even if you have a Titan your opponent can still target those Minotaur Kings.)

Of course, if the opponent plays badly (The opponent fails to kill even a single Titan during the combat but targets them with spells anyway), then your better off.

What you're saying is that Titans are good because your opponent makes poor choices when you have them present? For surely the opponent can cast that spell on your Archmages/Minotaurs instead of your Titans.

You should also consider one other aspect with spell immunity. Consider an army consisting of only Black Dragons?
Are you afraid of damage spells at all? Now consider an army with only Titans? Hmmm still not afraid???

My point is that in the case when the opponent can kill Titans with their spells: then you're probably very happy you're having Black Dragons and not Titans.

In Heroes 3 it is very advantageous to target level 7 creatures with spells. I'm not so sure about Heroes 2 and level 6 creatures. Some of the level 5 have a high cost per hitpoints if I remember correctly.

The powers of Titans and Black Dragons are awesome in Heroes 2. Having 1-2 more of these in any combat can in many cases be the differences between defeat and victory. So it's important that you don't lose too many of them.
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niteshade
niteshade


Known Hero
posted October 03, 2001 10:35 PM

Jenova,

I can see you haven't played much H3. In H3, battles are much bloodier then in H2. The implosion spell does MUCH more damage then the ressurection spell restores. And if you are fighting an even battle with the computer, casualties will almost always be high, and you are very unlikely to have a chance to ressurect many of your titans, you will be too busy casting other spells.

It is true, that the ability to cast spells on your own creature is very nice in battles where you know you are going to win and you just want to reduce casualties. But in multiplayer games, or on maps against tough computer opponents it's much better to be immune to the implosion spell and other nasty magics.

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StormWarning
StormWarning


Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
posted October 03, 2001 10:40 PM

Back to the original topic...

Titans have Chaos Ward (immunity to Chaos spells and less damage from Asylum creatures). Devils have Life Ward. Perhaps Black Dragons will have Order Ward.
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Preserver
Preserver


Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
posted October 03, 2001 11:20 PM

Or just order spell immunity...
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LordTitan
LordTitan


Famous Hero
Hit Dice: 76d12+608 HP
posted October 03, 2001 11:28 PM

I hope that they don't have to imunity to magic, that would make everybody crave them.
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted October 04, 2001 09:24 AM

Quote:
The Black Dragon's spell immunity is not a bad thing. It limits the options of your opponent. (even if you have a Titan your opponent can still target those Minotaur Kings.)

Of course, if the opponent plays badly (The opponent fails to kill even a single Titan during the combat but targets them with spells anyway), then your better off.

What you're saying is that Titans are good because your opponent makes poor choices when you have them present? For surely the opponent can cast that spell on your Archmages/Minotaurs instead of your Titans.




You're absolutely right. This was based on HOMM2 AI. I don't quite remember how good H3's AI was, but in HOMM2 they always targetted Titans. A clever opponent will still make you lose troops. I suppose the main point is that even if they wanted to target your BDs, they couldn't. But they don't have to be dumb just to target your tanking units. If you battle a human army, they probably think they have a chance of winning against you, so they will do whatever means necessary, even if targetting the Titans would have been a better choice than just merely targetting the Minotaurs so as to take out a few units while going down. The option of targetting a BD isn't there even if you would rather they did. I guess it all comes down to whether your opponent would have gone for them in the first place. I don't know how H4's AI will work, but shooting the most threatening stack with a Lightning Bolt sounds like a pretty valid strategy to me. And having BDs limits your options of targets, meaning you have to lose units no matter what. At least with Titans you have a chance of them being dumb enough to target the titans with moderately damaging spells.

There are other merits in being magic immune, such as being immune to negative status ailments, but then again you're also immune to protections. Bless would be really great for a BD if they did 150-300 damage.

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted October 04, 2001 09:28 AM

Quote:
Jenova,

I can see you haven't played much H3. In H3, battles are much bloodier then in H2. The implosion spell does MUCH more damage then the ressurection spell restores. And if you are fighting an even battle with the computer, casualties will almost always be high, and you are very unlikely to have a chance to ressurect many of your titans, you will be too busy casting other spells.

It is true, that the ability to cast spells on your own creature is very nice in battles where you know you are going to win and you just want to reduce casualties. But in multiplayer games, or on maps against tough computer opponents it's much better to be immune to the implosion spell and other nasty magics.


That's true.. I didn't particularly like H3 all that much. However, i'm not sure how damaging the spells will be, but with the Black Dragons reportedly having something like 1100 HP, I think they would be able to survive quite a blast.. if only they could be hit. Their HP is significantly higher than Titans and other level 4's, which makes them the best unit for absorbing damage in the game. A high level Implosion would kill a lot less Black Dragons than it would Phoenixes, Titans, Angels and other units. And that would make their higher cost much more worthwhile.

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Dajek
Dajek


Known Hero
Psychedelic Knight
posted October 04, 2001 02:47 PM

They must be. I think they are.
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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted October 04, 2001 04:12 PM

The solution of course could be to implement "stupid AI". What this means is AI that doesn't cheat. With magic immunity, instead of BDs being untargettable by spells, make them targetable but the magic will have no effect (in other words, a wasted spell -- similar to dwarves magic resistance). This should be the same as the Fire Cloak. The CPU should use a fire spell and you take half damage from it, instead of cheating and not using it at all.

Or how about just make it 80% magic resistance for a BD? That way they will definately be targettable, and there's a good chance you can avoid the effects of a spell? This is better than 100% immunity, as that would mean you can't be targetted and have no chance to get off "free" from a spell.

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