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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 08, 2007 11:08 PM |
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Eh - but I have a few objections here. First - they turn their Oxen INTO Yack? Eh ... that's as likely as to turn Sheep into Goats.
And why would they ride stubborn Oxen when they have invented a Tank, a Gyrocopter and a Dragon Golem? Seems to lack credibility for me.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 08, 2007 11:20 PM |
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just because they have mechanical devices, doesn't mean they don't have traditions. the yak riding of the gnomes is a great tradition amongst them. married couples judge how long the marriage lasts by how long they last on a yak. if your yak has a good sex life, the so do you. if your yak is strong, then so are you. yaks are similar to their master in every way. the mightiest families have thousands of yaks to ride, whilst the poorest have none. yaks are everything in gnome tradtion... EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!
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alcibiades
Honorable
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of Gold Dragons
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posted January 08, 2007 11:44 PM |
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*lol*
Even though I still think the idea lacks credibility, at least you managed to make it entertaining. 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 09, 2007 12:10 AM |
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Quote:
just because they have mechanical devices, doesn't mean they don't have traditions. the yak riding of the gnomes is a great tradition amongst them. married couples judge how long the marriage lasts by how long they last on a yak. if your yak has a good sex life, the so do you. if your yak is strong, then so are you. yaks are similar to their master in every way. the mightiest families have thousands of yaks to ride, whilst the poorest have none. yaks are everything in gnome tradtion... EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!
If we plan on sticking to this, I think it might be wise for me to wait some more before starting on a description. I realy think I need a lot of background info on Gnomes.
Still turning an Ox into a Yak may seem strange at first, but we need to remember that Ashan is a World of Magic. And since Gnomes are fond of the (odd) experiment or two, who could say that a Yak realy isn't an Ox who had been near the wrong experiment at the wrong time ? There are loads of posibilities and solutions, we just need to pick the one we like best.
Also, I've been looking into the Racial skill as it is printed now in the masterpost. I must admit that the idea is realy well adapted to Gnomes, but I fear it is way overpowered and to complex. Also Adding stuff to your units resembles the Artificer ability very closely. My opinion on this is that we should focus on the Bag-o-Tricks part of the idea, that's new and it has lots of potential.
Again, if you want me to do any descriptionsm I'll need more info and the Gnomes and their way of life.
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 09, 2007 12:45 AM |
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How would you judge if a Yak have a good sex life? Its not like you can count how many left over cigerate buds it has around its bed of hay....
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 09, 2007 09:17 AM |
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How would you judge if a Yak have a good sex life? Its not like you can count how many left over cigerate buds it has around its bed of hay....
just count how many cows are pregnant.
i think that we should make it so, to counter mand the overpowering of it, to introduce a failing failsafe device (?  ?). basically gnomes have invented all this new stuff, its not tested whether they work safely. they have a chance of not working, and if they don't, they inflict a 6+6*levelofcreation on the stacked creature. gnomes also have a light hearted aproach to safety, and sheer enthusaism allows them to opperate these devices with no fear of the consquences.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 09, 2007 11:17 AM |
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Quote:
BTW the plural of Ox is Oxen, not Oxes.
Ok, my bad... 
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Eh - but I have a few objections here. First - they turn their Oxen INTO Yack? Eh ... that's as likely as to turn Sheep into Goats.
Exactly. They DO sometimes turn sheep into goats. What's the problem?
Quote:
Also, I've been looking into the Racial skill as it is printed now in the masterpost. I must admit that the idea is realy well adapted to Gnomes, but I fear it is way overpowered and to complex. Also Adding stuff to your units resembles the Artificer ability very closely. My opinion on this is that we should focus on the Bag-o-Tricks part of the idea, that's new and it has lots of potential.
Well this faction isn't going to be in the game anyway so we might as well have some fun with the racial ability... But I guess we could simply focus on the bag-o-tricks. 
Quote:
Again, if you want me to do any descriptionsm I'll need more info and the Gnomes and their way of life.
I'm going to make myself write the timeline today. That should explain a lot. At least I'll try to make it that way...
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 09, 2007 11:05 PM |
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Well this faction isn't going to be in the game anyway so we might as well have some fun with the racial ability... But I guess we could simply focus on the bag-o-tricks.
Perhaps not, but if we would submit it, like we did with the Stronghold it might inspire the people at Nival for the possible heroes 6. You never know.
Quote:
I'm going to make myself write the timeline today. That should explain a lot. At least I'll try to make it that way...
Please do, it would help greatly with the making of the descriptions. Also I would like some info on the general characteristics of Gnomes. That would also be very helpfull.
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baklava
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Mostly harmless
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posted January 10, 2007 01:50 PM |
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Ok, I've finished the ORIGINS part of the timeline. I'll do the modern age soon.
TIMELINE
Origins:
14 YSD: Gnomes, still simple little creatures with only curiosity to guide them, get tired of nomadic life and selling their humble (and at that time primitive) technological services. They decide to settle somewhere and find the mostly unpopulated lands between the dwarves and the young Falcon Empire most suitable. It is clear that they have become a merchant nation, and they sold some of their first ideas (for example for crossbows) to their neighbours for large amounts of gold to help their fledgling economy.
During nomadic times, gnomes primarily used oxen and yaks as mounts and beasts of burden, since they were strong and yet easy to tame. This tradition still exists among the gnomes.
28-40 YSD: Gnomes didn’t do much during the first demon incursion, however it became obvious that the demons could attack them and, rightfully paranoid, they started quickly thinking of ways of improving their military. Beside their clockwork and gearwork beetles, which they customised for battle, they developed gyrocopters to scout the areas around their lands and their alchemists and scientists started making potions and explosives designed solely for battles.
50-60 YSD: During the years of healing, gnomes prospered a lot. They developed a new political system, republic, in which (theoretically) people rule the state instead of a single monarch. Needless to say the surrounding kingdoms (well, mostly kings) looked down on this kind of system, and started taking measures not to let it expand into their own countries.
Gnome state, which they in the meantime called Carlevor (meaning nothing in particular in gnomish, they just like giving nice-sounding names), was (and still is) ruled by a senate chosen by people. Elections are held every year to choose new representatives of the folk but since gnomes aren’t exactly too interested in politics they don’t feel these elections to be too important. They are also sometimes held out of schedule, mostly in cases of emergency (if one or more senators explode during an experiment for example).
In this period gnomes have also developed the first steam engine (which wasn’t armed with a canon at that time, of course, since gunpowder still wasn’t discovered).
62 YSD: As the Schism of the Seven occurs, a few gnomes are able to join the ranks of mysterious orders to help the preservation of Ashan. Whenever a gnome would join an order (they mostly went into Sar-Antor’s order of Blind Brothers, who were healers, seers and embalmers), that was a national holiday, because when one gnome becomes famous somewhere, all gnomes feel proud and merry, like a huge family.
67 YSD: When the demons escaped their fiery prisons, gnomes were sure they would join the battle this time. However, they somehow managed to stay out of the conflict, although they sent a few volunteer divisions to battle and some healers and alchemists to open field hospitals to tend to the wounded allies.
83 YSD: Gnome alchemists discover a mixture that explodes more often than others, and they call it black powder (or gunpowder). This helps them develop many offensive gadgets, bombs and machines, among which the mighty canon-armed steam tank.
105 YSD: The gnomes realise they forgot to select a capital city. They choose Pannoc, one of their greatest scientific and cultural centres, for this.
About 200-300. YSD: The Holy Falcon Empire is trying to peacefully annex the gnome territories through sending numerous emissaries and preachers. The gnomes react politely to their presents, giving impressions how they can be swayed by vast donations in gold and resources, giving the Emperor hope. However after they fill their treasuries and stockpiles with human gifts, they feel that they’ve drained them enough and politely reject the annexation. In his rage, the Emperor attacks the gnome lands with a solid but not too large force, thinking how it will be enough for such a (literally) small people like the gnomes. They are faced with a crushing defeat in a battle not far from Pannoc, the gnome capital, and retreat to tell the bad news to the Emperor. This is what was written in their general’s report:
“We crossed the borders facing no resistance at all. Our troops, we thought, were too glorious and powerful for any of those gnome-kin to face. Time would say how wrong we were.
Expecting only a few hidden, guerilla attacks, we pushed onwards to take their capital. Our emissary went to offer them surrender under terms of annexation, and we all laughed when he returned and told us they rejected the proposal and are waiting for us in the field near the town. None of us would have guessed they would accept open battle, and especially what the results will be.
As we approached the above-mentioned field, we were stunned to see strange iron-clad vehicles pushing toward us. They didn’t look like they are able to move at all, let alone spit the fires of hell itself. But they did… Raising their grim barrels towards us, they started firing projectiles filled with what seemed the rage of dragon-gods. One of those alone was able to smite many men instantly, with just one hit. After that rain of death, with our numbers decimated, we saw hosts of riders approaching from our rear. Their beast-like mounts seemed like the yaks described in books of our animologists, but through the flames left by those meteor-spitting juggernauts they seemed like horrors lurking in the realms of Urgash… Confused and frightened, our troops were slow to react to this and by the time they realised these riders are ordinary gnomes on yaks, many more were lost.
As if that wasn’t enough, some many-legged crawling devices came mindlessly attacking us from nowhere… Although not very powerful, they were numerous and seemingly unstoppable. Then those accursed armoured vehicles which rained demonic meteors upon us also approached to grind our remaining troops under their fearsome engines. I had no other choice but to sound for retreat. The moment I did, the damned machines stopped attacking us. Their yak riders escorted us to the border to make sure we won’t take revenge upon innocent population and that is how it all ended. We were all lucky to survive.”
From that day, the tensions between the gnomes and humans was on a high level.
330. YSD: In a total lunar eclipse, the demons invade the world and the humans and gnomes decide to forget about their squabbles and unite against these intruders. This time, gnomes send their full forces and generals to battle, along with steam tanks, battlecopters and other machines. After the war, gnomes raise a glorious stone and bronze statue in Pannoc on which are carved the names of all gnomes who have fallen battling the demons.
497. YSD: Bands of orcs appear at the borders, chased by the crusaders of Haven. They are granted safe passage through gnome lands, in terms that they do not stay there for long. Grateful, orcs pass through Carlevor despite Haven’s demands that the gnomes hand them over. Again, the tension is rising between these two kingdoms, and gnomes start trading with dwarves more than with humans.
538-545. YSD: A gnome called Glinckot tries to remake Carlevor into a kingdom instead of a republic, and starts gathering followers in an attempt to start a civil war if his demands aren’t fulfilled. In time, it is proven that he is a foreign spy, although not exactly known who’s his master. He disappears without a trail and is never seen again.
564. YSD: Again, a demon incursion. This time the gnomes aren’t too excited and simply send their troops to do their work. They start wondering if the demons are ever going to get bored of making invasions.
620. YSD: The necromantic teachings approach gnome lands. Gnomes look into it from pure curiosity, but find out that the undead smell funny. Necromancy is slowly forgotten in Carlevor due to mass loss of interest in it.
738. YSD: Trading with the Seven Cities, the gnomes get interested in golems. However they don’t like the way they’re animated by magic instead of physics, and decide to make their own versions. They gather their best engineers and manage to create the dragon golems, fearsome machines that stand to the present days as a testament to gnome genius. The creation of dragon golems also spells the beginning of the modern age for gnomes.
What do you think?
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 10, 2007 06:04 PM |
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wowjust wow
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 10, 2007 09:37 PM |
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Yeah, I have no life 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 10, 2007 10:10 PM |
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You have done verry well on the Timeline Baklava. Well done. Still there are a few pointers that I would like to give.
- You say you have completed the Origins, yet not a word is spoken about where the Gnomes come from. Were they created by the Dragons? Are they a self evolved race ? Are they a subrace of the Dwarves that splintered of in the far past ? They are actual things to consider.
- It also occured to me that the Gnomes development has been verry irratic. In 14 YSD the Gnomes are a nomadic people with almost no technology at all. 36 years later(40 YSD) They have already invented flying machines and clockwork robots. A mere 20 years (60 YSD) later they have discovered the Steam engine and put it to use. In another 23 years(83 YSD)they invent gunpowder. Then their advance comes to a halt until 738 YSD, when they invent the Dragon Golems. This seems strange to me that in a mere 60 years they progress as if Satan was on their heels and then about 600 they make no mentionable inventions at all !? In my opinion the progress of the Gnomes should be spread over the ages a bit more evenly.
- Does the name of the Capitol actualy mean "nothing in particular" in Gnomish, or are they just of bunch of random cool sounding letters with no actual meaning.(this sentence can be interpreted in multiple ways)
- It also seems strange for Gnomes that, while almost nobody has actual interest for politics, they do elect a full senate counting an X amount of Gnomes every year. Would it not make more sense to elect 2-4 consuls every 3 or 4 years. That way the will of the people is still represented but by less people and it gets changed less often.
These are just some things that sprang to mind while reading. This is not ment to make fun or insult you history it's realy nice. There were just some things that seemed strange to me.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted January 10, 2007 11:56 PM |
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How bout Auruchs instead of Yaks or Oxen?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 11, 2007 08:58 AM |
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Quote:
- It also occured to me that the Gnomes development has been verry irratic. In 14 YSD the Gnomes are a nomadic people with almost no technology at all. 36 years later(40 YSD) They have already invented flying machines and clockwork robots. A mere 20 years (60 YSD) later they have discovered the Steam engine and put it to use. In another 23 years(83 YSD)they invent gunpowder. Then their advance comes to a halt until 738 YSD, when they invent the Dragon Golems. This seems strange to me that in a mere 60 years they progress as if Satan was on their heels and then about 600 they make no mentionable inventions at all !? In my opinion the progress of the Gnomes should be spread over the ages a bit more evenly.
Very good point. Totally agree. And all those modern inventions should have come by recently - otherwise, they would have spread!
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 11, 2007 09:32 AM |
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Quote:
How bout Auruchs instead of Yaks or Oxen?
If we would do so, let us spell it right as Aurochs 
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baklava
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Legendary Hero
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posted January 11, 2007 07:00 PM |
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Quote:
- You say you have completed the Origins, yet not a word is spoken about where the Gnomes come from. Were they created by the Dragons? Are they a self evolved race ? Are they a subrace of the Dwarves that splintered of in the far past ? They are actual things to consider.
Well in the official timeline that wasn't explained for any race. Where do humans come from? Or elves?
Quote:
- It also occured to me that the Gnomes development has been verry irratic. In 14 YSD the Gnomes are a nomadic people with almost no technology at all.
Wrong, they do have technology, but it's primitive towards their technology of today. They had first versions of crossbows and similar then.
Quote:
36 years later(40 YSD) They have already invented flying machines and clockwork robots. A mere 20 years (60 YSD) later they have discovered the Steam engine and put it to use. In another 23 years(83 YSD)they invent gunpowder. Then their advance comes to a halt until 738 YSD, when they invent the Dragon Golems. This seems strange to me that in a mere 60 years they progress as if Satan was on their heels and then about 600 they make no mentionable inventions at all !?
In the timeline are mentioned only war inventions. The gnomes, when they first settled in those areas, needed to make a formidable military so they made those. After that, in years of peace, they mostly made inventions to help their normal life, which aren't exciting enough to be displayed in the timeline (348 YSD: The gnomes have invented a system of public toilets that play cute music to help you concentrate)
Quote:
- Does the name of the Capitol actualy mean "nothing in particular" in Gnomish, or are they just of bunch of random cool sounding letters with no actual meaning.(this sentence can be interpreted in multiple ways)
Yes.
Quote:
- It also seems strange for Gnomes that, while almost nobody has actual interest for politics, they do elect a full senate counting an X amount of Gnomes every year. Would it not make more sense to elect 2-4 consuls every 3 or 4 years. That way the will of the people is still represented but by less people and it gets changed less often.
Well the people from the senate get bored from being in senate eventually... Hence, new elections.
Quote:
And all those modern inventions should have come by recently - otherwise, they would have spread!
The gnomes, as mentioned above, keep their inventions jealously. Second, it's hard to place an elven or human spy to steal the plans for those inventions among a bunch of gnomes (they would kinda stand out). Third, the reason is also the same like in warhammer - the elves don't use human or dwarven gunpowder weapons as they consider them unstable and dishonourable.
I still prefer ox riders instead of aurochs...
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KnightDougal
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted January 11, 2007 07:07 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
- You say you have completed the Origins, yet not a word is spoken about where the Gnomes come from. Were they created by the Dragons? Are they a self evolved race ? Are they a subrace of the Dwarves that splintered of in the far past ? They are actual things to consider.
Well in the official timeline that wasn't explained for any race. Where do humans come from? Or elves?
Quote:
- It also occured to me that the Gnomes development has been verry irratic. In 14 YSD the Gnomes are a nomadic people with almost no technology at all.
Wrong, they do have technology, but it's primitive towards their technology of today. They had first versions of crossbows and similar then.
Quote:
36 years later(40 YSD) They have already invented flying machines and clockwork robots. A mere 20 years (60 YSD) later they have discovered the Steam engine and put it to use. In another 23 years(83 YSD)they invent gunpowder. Then their advance comes to a halt until 738 YSD, when they invent the Dragon Golems. This seems strange to me that in a mere 60 years they progress as if Satan was on their heels and then about 600 they make no mentionable inventions at all !?
In the timeline are mentioned only war inventions. The gnomes, when they first settled in those areas, needed to make a formidable military so they made those. After that, in years of peace, they mostly made inventions to help their normal life, which aren't exciting enough to be displayed in the timeline (348 YSD: The gnomes have invented a system of public toilets that play cute music to help you concentrate)
Quote:
- Does the name of the Capitol actualy mean "nothing in particular" in Gnomish, or are they just of bunch of random cool sounding letters with no actual meaning.(this sentence can be interpreted in multiple ways)
Yes.
Quote:
- It also seems strange for Gnomes that, while almost nobody has actual interest for politics, they do elect a full senate counting an X amount of Gnomes every year. Would it not make more sense to elect 2-4 consuls every 3 or 4 years. That way the will of the people is still represented but by less people and it gets changed less often.
Well the people from the senate get bored from being in senate eventually... Hence, new elections.
Quote:
And all those modern inventions should have come by recently - otherwise, they would have spread!
The gnomes, as mentioned above, keep their inventions jealously. Second, it's hard to place an elven or human spy to steal the plans for those inventions among a bunch of gnomes (they would kinda stand out). Third, the reason is also the same like in warhammer - the elves don't use human or dwarven gunpowder weapons as they consider them unstable and dishonourable.
I still prefer ox riders instead of aurochs...
what you think about Aliance beetwen Laboraty and Settleemnt? They are smilar! just some driffent things: the orc's growt rate is smilar to the dungeon's.
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted January 11, 2007 07:11 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
- It also seems strange for Gnomes that, while almost nobody has actual interest for politics, they do elect a full senate counting an X amount of Gnomes every year. Would it not make more sense to elect 2-4 consuls every 3 or 4 years. That way the will of the people is still represented but by less people and it gets changed less often.
Well the people from the senate get bored from being in senate eventually... Hence, new elections.
if they get bored, they eventually will have had every1 that wants to be a seneter in the senate + several bored out of brains people, and no1 would want to replace them
also ox riders are better, for sure
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted January 12, 2007 12:00 AM |
bonus applied by alcibiades on 07 Jan 2011. |
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Well in the official timeline that wasn't explained for any race. Where do humans come from? Or elves?
Actualy yes, that is mentioned. The Humans were created by Sylath to be his race of followers, same with the Elves only by Sylanna. All the elder races were directly created by the Dragongods. Other races have gradualy evolved from other lifeforms or are created by another race.
Quote:
Wrong, they do have technology, but it's primitive towards their technology of today. They had first versions of crossbows and similar then.
In the timeline are mentioned only war inventions. The gnomes, when they first settled in those areas, needed to make a formidable military so they made those. After that, in years of peace, they mostly made inventions to help their normal life, which aren't exciting enough to be displayed in the timeline (348 YSD: The gnomes have invented a system of public toilets that play cute music to help you concentrate)
What ever primitive technology the Gnomes had before they settled (I suspect they a bit lower on the ladder than Humans of the Empire nowadays), the Leap they made in 80 years is still unrealisticly grand. Progress can't be forced and if it is, the progress is often so disfunctional that it usualy makes situations worse.
If I may be so bold as to suggest a change to the history:
I would keep the creation of the Clockwork Beetles and the invention of Gun-powder at their current place. I would place the invention of the Steam-engine more around the year 420. The Armored Wagons that the Falcon-commander spoke of could be propelled by a large clockwork mechanism. Lastly I would place the invention of the Gyrocopter, depending on the propulsion around 490 if they are clockworks, or 540 is they are steam-powered. That way the inventions are more evenly spread, but it would not realy interfere with the other events. It would only need a slight replacement of the shipments of troops during the Demon incursions.
Also I would like to propose several slight changes to the Creatures.
- Firstly, I would like to propose the replacement of the Rocket Dart of the Technician, with a singleshot Flintlock pistol. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock) The use of Rocket powered darts seem to bizar to be used; because the amount of energy used to rocketpropel a dart would require a large amount of fuel and that would be severely out of proportion with the projectile(the dart). Also the use of a dart when it is traveling at such a speed is questionable at best; because the use of a dart in battle is not to cause much damage, but to irritate the enemy, deliver a certain substance via the dart into the body or pierce armor. But at rocketspeed neither of these is achieved, since the dart would rip directly through the body, but because it is traveling at such high speed that is does not require a large entry, thus creating an entrywound of slighty more then it's own size.
(also it is unclear to me if an ammocart would have had an effect on the rocketdart)(Also the use of rocketpower for the Alchemist/Scientist mortar seems strange to, since normal gunpowder would suffice for a mortar(As it still does nowadays))
-Secondly ,in the rudimentary description of the Steam Engine/Tank, there is talk of a cannon on this vehicle. Yet this does not effect the abilities of the Engine/Tank. Also it attacks Seigewalls with it's ramhead, which would be very obsolete if it already carried a cannon. One could say the cannons are used to attack at close range, but that would stir up the question why this does only close damage, while other gun-like contraptions can be used at range. Some clarification would be very usefull in this.
-Thirdly, I would like to suggest to Change the names of the Drake and Dragon Golem. These names indicate that the golems were modelled after different creatures, while your description indicates that the Upgrade is just that an upgrade of machinery and parts. I would therefor suggest to make something like Mithril Dragongolem > Adamantium Dragongolem. With the metals used in this can be changed at whim.
I would lastly like to state that I would also prefer Oxen over Aurochs. That I back up Ted's statement, this explains why it would make more sense to use fewer people for governing if they would get bored with it after an X amount of time. I would like to advise to no create any alliances with any other proposed town before we finish this project.(also I would not agree with KD's Settlement town, seeing as this is a direct and literal copy of the Warhammer 40k orks)
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 12, 2007 12:46 AM |
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-In regarding the Rocket dart.... it is bizzard.. but that thats how I think most Gnome inventions are. It would look more like this
, but with a sharp piercing head on top. Guns and Musket would be okie, but just feel that would make them become more as another range shooter, instead of 1-shot shooter.
-I would perfer no cannon on steam tank. Else would become a heavily armor range unit, which unless have other drawbacks, might be a bit too strong.
-Still feel too many dragons.
However, that is just my prefrence. You can change as much as you like... BUT only for your own creature line up. Feel free to take inspirations or some ideas from what I, Alc, or other have posted (with proper credit of couse), but be sure to seperate the two, and have your own line up where you can better change and modify to your own like. Afterall, I did promote that everyone come up with their own creature line-up.
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This thread is pages long: 
