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| Thread: Light spells- inferior to dark spells? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
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posted May 21, 2007 10:40 PM |
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Through all my playing and testplaying through dueling now, I can see they have playtested the game pretty good. I find Light and Dark pretty even in the total. Though Light has after my opinion a bit better edge in combat.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 10:03 AM |
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Light is weak early(except guardian angel) but very powerful later. Dark is very powerful throughout the whole game but can be resisted.
Still, taking both dark and light sometimes may be the best thing to do. For example, a knight with dark and light will creep like mad(compared to a kinght with light+guardian angel only) and won't be that easily killed by a rush. So, dark gives to a knight the best speed vs a map and it makes him tougher vs rushes while light gives him the best late game power.
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Stella
Adventuring Hero
Little girl with a BIG sword:)
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posted May 22, 2007 10:44 AM |
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Quote:
Light is weak early(except guardian angel) but very powerful later. Dark is very powerful throughout the whole game but can be resisted.
Still, taking both dark and light sometimes may be the best thing to do. For example, a knight with dark and light will creep like mad(compared to a kinght with light+guardian angel only) and won't be that easily killed by a rush. So, dark gives to a knight the best speed vs a map and it makes him tougher vs rushes while light gives him the best late game power.
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-- Hehe. It might be true that theoretically the 2 skills would be better than 1, but let's think it over a bit.
- FIRST of all a hero can only have 6 main skills. Since most of them have 1 racial skill they have only 5 skills left. For me it is usually : 1. Logistics (for faster move to be able to escape from OR catch enemies, and ofcourse Scouting can also spare a lot of unpleasant surprises.), 2. Enlightment (For the bonus stat points and the faster LevelUp + more mana), 3. Offense (Of course for the greater damage and the WONDERFUL Tactics), 4. Sorcery (To ack more often in combat and use less mana), 5. Light Magic (For the wonderful buffs and Resu). I might "sacrifice" Sorcery for Dark Magic but in that case I'd cast spells slower, and the mana-cost reduction that sorcery gives is very important for a Knight if he/she wants to have some extra mana to Mass Cleanse/Teleport or Resurrect after putting on the mass buffs (DivineStr, R.Might, Endurance and sometimes Def.M.) Unfortunately Knights usually don't have too much mana.
- And the SECOND thing is, that knights are not casting maniacs like the Wizards so if you want to activate all the Mass Buffs for your troops and all the Mass Debuffs on the enemy troops and you even want to use Resu/Cleanse/Puppet/Frenzy/Teleport/Blind you won't have either the mana OR the time to cast all of them cause the battle will be over for a long time... 
-- So one would think that 2 is always better than 1, but in this case I believe U'd have both of them, but U won't be able to use either of them with their true potential and U'd just waste a precious skill slot.
- At least this is what I think....
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted May 22, 2007 03:02 PM |
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Sorcery is a terrible skill for knights. They primarily cast mass spells which is not effected by sorcery (and faster than sorcery). Mana can be a problem though when you go both Light and Dark. Enlightenment + Intelligence can help but I think you only have a 2% chance at Enlighenment (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). I always take Light magic with a knight becuase knight's are all about might which fits perfectly with Light. There may be some cases when I take Dark, but it would probably only be on a very large map where I have time to raise mana through levels, artifacts, and knowledge stone thing-ees. It's already been said but buffing your army and debuffing your opponents army can have a very powerful effect.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Stella
Adventuring Hero
Little girl with a BIG sword:)
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posted May 22, 2007 03:20 PM |
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Edited by Stella at 15:20, 22 May 2007.
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Quote:
Sorcery is a terrible skill for knights. They primarily cast mass spells which is not effected by sorcery (and faster than sorcery). Mana can be a problem though when you go both Light and Dark. Enlightenment + Intelligence can help but I think you only have a 2% chance at Enlighenment (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). I always take Light magic with a knight becuase knight's are all about might which fits perfectly with Light. There may be some cases when I take Dark, but it would probably only be on a very large map where I have time to raise mana through levels, artifacts, and knowledge stone thing-ees. It's already been said but buffing your army and debuffing your opponents army can have a very powerful effect.
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-- Umm. I did NOT know that - this is terrible news - tho I was suspecting it cause the Sorcery skill sais that it speeds up the interval between 2 spell castings of the hero and knights usually don't cast spells but charge down on the enemy and strike them from melee (and that is by no means spellcasting so why would it make it more quick?). Does this mean that knights are absolutely NOT affected by the casting speed increase of Sorcery? If so is this __100%_SURE___? And which classes can use Sorcery then? And how do I increase the casting speed for a Knight? Or is it impossible for them?
-- About the rest we think the same way. I love Knights cause I'd rather use might armies than magic armies. So I also prefer Light Magic over the other Schools. (Well as long as the Dark School does not get mass Vampiric effect in ToE cause then I'll probably "turn to the Dark Side". )
-- But if the knight's casting speed can't be increased by any means then it is impossible to fully buff your army (takes at least 3 rounds - Bless,Haste,Might) debuff your enemy (at least 2 rounds for Confusion and Slow but often more for Weakness and Multiple Vulnerabilities) and then you'd still like to Puppet or Cleanse or Resurrect.... You won't have so many turns with your hero in one battle.
-- Tho this is just an assumption. I've never had a character with both Light/Dark magic Schools yet. Maybe I'll test it today....
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted May 22, 2007 04:26 PM |
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Quote:
Umm. I did NOT know that - this is terrible news - tho I was suspecting it cause the Sorcery skill sais that it speeds up the interval between 2 spell castings of the hero and knights usually don't cast spells but charge down on the enemy and strike them from melee (and that is by no means spellcasting so why would it make it more quick?). Does this mean that knights are absolutely NOT affected by the casting speed increase of Sorcery? If so is this __100%_SURE___? And which classes can use Sorcery then? And how do I increase the casting speed for a Knight? Or is it impossible for them?
It has nothing to do with the Knight.
Sorcery just makes your next turn come 10%/20%/30% (depending on mastery) faster only after you cast a normal spell. Normal spells are all the spells except the Mass ones and the abilities.
Examples:
Sorcery works after you cast Slow, but not after you cast Mass Slow.
Sorcery works after you cast Magical Immunity.
Sorcery DOESN'T work after you use Divine Guidance, Retaliation Strike, and such abilities.
Sorcery DOESN'T work after you use your hero's direct (melee/ranged) attack.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted May 22, 2007 04:29 PM |
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Sorcery works on knights when the spell that is cast is a regular spell. Mass spells however only use 50% of your initiative and are not effected by sorcery (they are faster than sorcery). You may want to check out the manual, the link is posted in one the first few posts.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Lesij
Famous Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 04:38 PM |
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Edited by Lesij at 16:39, 22 May 2007.
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By the way, have a question, if I cast MOTW on Titans and then, for example, Mass Endurance, will Titans be double boosted???
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Stella
Adventuring Hero
Little girl with a BIG sword:)
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posted May 22, 2007 04:43 PM |
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Edited by Stella at 17:35, 22 May 2007.
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Ohh. I see.
- Thanks for telling me these things. I'm too lazy to read manuals (and tho I'm not proud of it but my game discs are not original, so I did not get a manual with them...). I always like to experience things for myself (or ask others about it as I did now. )
- Tho I think it might still be useful to get Sorcery for the mana-cost reduction and I can still resurrect more often.... But I'll think it over and maybe I'll find a more suitable and useful skill now.... 
-- Hmm... we shall see... but once again thanks for the useful info guys.
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-EDIT: On second thought _I__WILL__ download this manual cause the people there are praising it so much so it should really worth reading. Just one question: Is there a difference between 1.5 and 2.1? This might be a newb question but unless I'm mistaken 2.1 is the expansion (HoF) and 1.5 is the base game (HOMM 5 without HoF) isn't it? So if I'm right then does 2.1 contain 1.5 as well? Or do they both contain some different info? Thanks for the help in advance.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 22, 2007 05:08 PM |
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Quote:
By the way, have a question, if I cast MOTW on Titans and then, for example, Mass Endurance, will Titans be double boosted???
No. Just as in any other case where you use Endurance twice, it will just refresh the spell, possible prolonging its duration. As the two spells are cast simultaneously in this case, there will be no effect of Mark of the Wizard.
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What will happen now?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 22, 2007 08:08 PM |
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Quote:
-EDIT: On second thought _I__WILL__ download this manual cause the people there are praising it so much so it should really worth reading. Just one question: Is there a difference between 1.5 and 2.1? This might be a newb question but unless I'm mistaken 2.1 is the expansion (HoF) and 1.5 is the base game (HOMM 5 without HoF) isn't it? So if I'm right then does 2.1 contain 1.5 as well? Or do they both contain some different info? Thanks for the help in advance.
Mostly, no - 1.5 is almost the same with 2.1 except there are no dwarves, fewer artifacts, no caravans etc. Also 1.5 has some small changes such as the mechanics for firewall(does not damage units exactly when cast), arcane intuition(now allows learning spells from your units) and other small details.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted May 22, 2007 09:41 PM |
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With a knight it's still best to aim at mass haste + mass slow combo. Even if you face a very powerful might hero with light mass spells, the final battle will probably go something like:
knight casts mass haste, enemy casts mass haste.
knight casts mass slow, enemy casts mass haste
knight casts mass slow, enemy casts mass haste..
so knight's mass haste stays while enemy's haste get countered all the time. Not to mention that mass slow makes a more powerful effect because it makes your army relatively 66% faster(1/(1-0.4)) while mass haste makes it 40% faster(1*1.4). So it's like:
your mass haste 40% + your mass slow 66% - opponent's mass haste 40% = your army is on average 66% faster than the opponent's which is supported by mass haste only. Leadership -> divine guidance fits perfectly here.
So take light, dark, log, leadership and keep waiting for enlightenment. Luck and attack are never really wrong too, but dropping log makes a knight too slow and 6th slot waits for enlightenment anyway.
Generally, it's just better to aim at making an "initiative master" knight than making a "damage master" knight mainly because paladins tend to overkill things and they sometimes really need to be fast enough to use cleansing in time.
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Stella
Adventuring Hero
Little girl with a BIG sword:)
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posted May 22, 2007 10:16 PM |
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Edited by Stella at 23:13, 22 May 2007.
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Quote:
With a knight it's still best to aim at mass haste + mass slow combo. Even if you face a very powerful might hero with light mass spells, the final battle will probably go something like:
knight casts mass haste, enemy casts mass haste.
knight casts mass slow, enemy casts mass haste
knight casts mass slow, enemy casts mass haste..
so knight's mass haste stays while enemy's haste get countered all the time. Not to mention that mass slow makes a more powerful effect because it makes your army relatively 66% faster(1/(1-0.4)) while mass haste makes it 40% faster(1*1.4). So it's like:
your mass haste 40% + your mass slow 66% - opponent's mass haste 40% = your army is on average 66% faster than the opponent's which is supported by mass haste only. Leadership -> divine guidance fits perfectly here.
So take light, dark, log, leadership and keep waiting for enlightenment. Luck and attack are never really wrong too, but dropping log makes a knight too slow and 6th slot waits for enlightenment anyway.
Generally, it's just better to aim at making an "initiative master" knight than making a "damage master" knight mainly because paladins tend to overkill things and they sometimes really need to be fast enough to use cleansing in time.
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- My usual way for a Knight is only 1 skill different from yours so it looks like:
1. Unique Knight skill (Padawan Training)
2. (bio)Logi-Sticks (logistics)
3. N-lightment. (Enlightment)
4. O-fence (Offense)
5. Leader"chip" (Leadership)
6. (b)Light Magic (Light Magic)
A quick explanation:
-- The 1st is obvious ... I get it even if I want it or not, and Benediction can be useful sometimes anyways.
-- 2nd: Logistics (other version: Logi-Styx): No comment - needed for interception or evading a threat. + You can Spy-cam the enemy armies' numbers and ofcourse on familiar ground my creatures move more.
-- 3rd: Enlightment - More mana with IQ and Graduate a bit more Spell power with wizard's reward (that means a bit longer mass spell effects.) And of course those extra stat points are always welcome.
-- 4th: Offense: Tactics help a lot during a battle cause if I push my Paladins forward they can attack many more creatures than without tactics especially with Familiar ground and Aura of Swiftness - The more max slots a pala can move, the more damage they will deal). Archery is good if I use some ranged troops as well. And also Retribution is a top sub-skill as well (I'll explain it later)
-- 5th: Leadership: Here I usually take Diplomacy (In case I might get some "free troops" this way from neutrals), Divine Guidance is a wonderful thing in many situations, and then Aura of swiftness to maximize the movement rate of my Palas.
-- 6th: Light magic: Simply put I'm a good girl who likes to be good, so Light magic is my way  . But honestly. I just love those mass buffs and Resu.
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- So after the skills I summarize my tactic: I build mass Paladin groups with some support range troops with a Knight. The Palas can attack almost anything on the battlefield since their movement rate is huge thanks to the skills I got with my Hero. I boost up my morale to max with Leadership, Benediction and Artifacts (That lion cape adds 2 and that pointed stupid cap also adds 2 so either of them is good). With a (m)orale of +5 I deal +25% damage from Retribution and +30% from Expert Offense. You are right that Paladins are already overkill units, but this way I might separate them into more stacks and while they still deal the same damage as a larger stack without Offense and Retribution but let's say this way I can have 4 stacks out not just 2 stacks... so I kill twice as fast OR if I get some debuff s_it one stack can Lay Eggs ... umm... I mean Lay Hands and the other 3 can still attack... And usually my hero is occupied with buffing my Palas during the first 4 rounds (Bless,Haste,R.Might,Endu, sometimes Def.Arrow) and IF the enemy is not killed by 4 stacks of Palas then either I miscalculated something - and bit more than I can chew - then I usually start cleansing debuffs and Resurrect as fast as I can but usually not many enemies can outmatch 4 groups of Palas for more than 4 rounds.... I don't think I'd have a lot of time to cast debuffs as well.
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PhoenixReborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted May 23, 2007 06:01 PM |
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Mass paladins? What difficulty level are you playing on? Seems like a pretty powerful strategy with training the way it is now.
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Stella
Adventuring Hero
Little girl with a BIG sword:)
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posted May 23, 2007 07:01 PM |
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Edited by Stella at 19:07, 23 May 2007.
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Quote:
Mass paladins? What difficulty level are you playing on? Seems like a pretty powerful strategy with training the way it is now.
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-- Usually Hard (When I'm tired or irritated only Normal ).
-- My favourite map is Warlords - 8 players Large map. I set RED, ORANGE, BLUE and TEAL to be Haven towns and I start at the orange place (middle-upper-left castle). The rest of the towns are random.
-- Then I first kill red who is the upper left corner. Now I have 2 Havens. Then I go to the upper right area of the map where the Blue and the Teal are. If I manage to control all the 4 Haven towns I can easily go for mass Palas. And there is even an Artifact Merchant at the upper right area, so I can get a lot of nice stuff from there - to boost my morale for Retribution and of course extra morale is useful anyways cause it makes my units act more often - even if there's no Dungeon on the map among the random towns.
-- True that I only play against the computer cause I don't have the original HOMM5 game discs... I know: Shame on me...
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( )( ) __NEVER__
( ;.; ) / argue with a
( " " )/ Lady!
" " (OR mousie KILLS U!!)
DON'T underestimate MOUSIE!!
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PhoenixReborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted May 23, 2007 07:13 PM |
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Quote:
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-- Usually Hard (When I'm tired or irritated only Normal ).
-- My favourite map is Warlords - 8 players Large map. I set RED, ORANGE, BLUE and TEAL to be Haven towns and I start at the orange place (middle-upper-left castle). The rest of the towns are random.
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Got it, your manipulating things a bit Well as long as it's fun. I would be worried that one of the other knights would conquer the other two and come after you with paladins...
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Stella
Adventuring Hero
Little girl with a BIG sword:)
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posted May 23, 2007 07:27 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
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-- Usually Hard (When I'm tired or irritated only Normal ).
-- My favourite map is Warlords - 8 players Large map. I set RED, ORANGE, BLUE and TEAL to be Haven towns and I start at the orange place (middle-upper-left castle). The rest of the towns are random.
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Got it, your manipulating things a bit Well as long as it's fun. I would be worried that one of the other knights would conquer the other two and come after you with paladins...
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-- I don't say that it hasn't happened to me yet when I was slacking for too long and then when I finally opened my eyes a huge Haven army was knocking at my castle's door ... 
-- Tho the "wonderful-and-overpowered-reload-last-month" trick always works on the computer. I always keep saving at the end of each week and I have 4 saves for 1 game - that makes 1 month exactly.
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I wonder when there will be a mod like this:
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-Stella: "****in' computer will kill me... well let's reload.."
Clicks on Load Game option---> A message popps up from the computer player:
-BLUE: "Oooo. Noooo you don't.... Die!"
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- The ambitious and aggressive computer player who wants to win...
____________
( )( ) __NEVER__
( ;.; ) / argue with a
( " " )/ Lady!
" " (OR mousie KILLS U!!)
DON'T underestimate MOUSIE!!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 23, 2007 07:52 PM |
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Lol! I remember I used to do that with H3 and H4 campaigns  At least for the first time hehe! I absolutely hated restarting though I'm kinda used to it by now.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted May 24, 2007 01:29 PM |
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Well, not taking dark gives you way more challenging AI for sure.. With dark you can just own all AI on the map within 3-4 weeks or something.
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Undead_Warrior
Known Hero
I hear voices in my head.
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posted December 25, 2007 09:36 PM |
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Of course light is inferior to THE DARK! "TRUE EVIL NEVER DIES" Where have I heard this a long time ago?
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