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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Complete Dungeon overview + strategies
Thread: Complete Dungeon overview + strategies This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted January 27, 2007 11:25 AM bonus applied.
Edited by ZombieLord at 20:13, 27 Jan 2007.

Complete Dungeon overview + strategies

This review is for my favorite faction (Necropolis used to be, but now Dungeon is 1st in the list). I have included here information about the heroes, creatures and strategies. Hope you'll enjoy reading.
NOTE: I don't have Hammers of Fate, so no dwarves or other HoF related things here

Ok, let's start:

HEROES

1.Eruina - an excellent hero with a good speciality, especially if you have lots of Shadow Witches/Matriarchs (they have a chance to gain an extra shot, even if they're out of ammo or blocked!!). Starts out with Destructive and Attack, two very important skills for a Warlock. Also starts out with Lightning Bolt, ensuring you'll have it even if it's Ice Bolt in the Magic Guild (Lightning Bolt on Expert Level with high Spell Power, which you should have, is way better than Ice Bolt)
Levelup strategies: I usually take Expert Destructive Magic -> Master of Storms, Secrets of Destruction; Expert Attack -> Tactics, Power of Speed, Retribution (or, if I don't have Leadership or an artifact that gives you Morale bonus, I try to take Archery rather than Retribution, because it's useful for Eruina's speciality, as Shadow Witches/Matriarchs have a ranged attack); Expert Sorcery -> Arcane Training, Mana Regeneration, Erratic Mana; Expert Luck -> Soldier's Luck, Warlock's Luck (and Magic Resistance sometimes); Oh yeah, I also like to take Empowered Spells, of course

Overall Rating: 9/10


2.Vayshan - a good hero with an average speciality. Starts out with Basic Luck and Soldier's Luck, which makes it easy to obtain Warlock's Luck. The starting spell is Fire Trap, which is not that useful in the early game, but it's amazing later (usually I even take Summoning with Vayshan rather than Destructive (depends what skill shows first) because Warlock's Luck works with Fire Trap, and on Expert Level (8 mines) it can cause a great amount of damage)
Levelup strategies: I usually take Expert Summoning Magic -> Master of Earthblood (and other masteries, depends of spells available in the Magic Guild); Expert Luck -> Soldier's Luck, Warlock's Luck; Expert Sorcery -> Arcane Training, Mana Regeneration, Erratic Mana; Attack or Defense or something might-oriented, too!

Overall Rating: 7/10


3.Yrwanna - a good hero with a good speciality. Starts out with Basic Enlightment and Intelligence, sweet! Unfortunately, she starts out with Slow, which is not a good spell here, because Dark Magic is only 2% and it's not very good at creeping either. She has a starting army of 9 Blood Maidens, and I find her the best Dungeon Hero (without destructive spells) at creeping because of that. This is just from my experience, I know some of you won't agree here
Levelup strategies: I usually take Destructive/Summoning Magic, Attack and/or Defense, Expert Logistics -> Scouting, Teleport Assault, Death March; maybe luck, too. I also try to avoid Sorcery, as I have enough mana thanks to Intelligence.

Overall Rating: 8/10


4.Sinitar - a good hero with an average speciality. Starts out with Basic Destructive and Empowered Spells, an excellent choice when you're a magic-oriented Warlock. Even better, starts out with Eldritch Arrow, a good spell to start with (very useful in the early game for creeping).
Levelup strategies: Expert Destructive -> Secrets of Destruction; Expert Sorcery -> Arcane Training, Mana Regeneration, Erratic Mana; Expert Luck -> Soldier's Luck, Warlock's Luck; and some other might oriented skills

Overall Rating: 7/10


5.Kythra - a good hero with an average speciality. Starts out with Basic Leadership (a 2% skill, yee!) and Estates, and the starting spell is Ice Bolt, which is a very good spell for early game creeping but costs 6 Mana! (with Knowledge 1, you can cast only one Ice Bolt). She starts out only with Minotaurs, which are not that great at creeping, but the hero's Ice Bolt can compensate that.
Levelup strategies: For me, the best thing about Kythra is that she starts out with Leadership, ensuring great effect for Retribution. So I usually take Expert Attack -> Tactics, Power of Speed, Retribution; Expert Leadership -> Estates, Recruitment, Aura of Swiftness; Expert Logistics -> Scouting, Teleport Assault, Death March; because Retribution needs Empowered Spells, I also take Expert Destructive to have a greater effect when empowering; Defense is a good skill, too, though it's only at 2%

Overall Rating: 8/10


6.Sorgal - an average hero with a bad speciality. The Lizard's bite deals only 0.005 per level more damage?!? that's ridiculous! even the starting point is 0.6, that means +0.1 more damage than normal at level 0, but just +0.2 at level 20? too underpowered, if you ask me! Fortunately I remember someone saying that in HoF the starting point is 1.0 and +0.05 per level. In that case, he actually has a very good speciality, but I'll have to stick with the 'underpowered Sorgal' before the second add-on
He starts out with Basic Attack and Battle Frenzy. Okay, Battle Frenzy is not that great for Dungeon, but for creatures whose damage is lower than 10 (Assassin, Blood Fury, Minotaur (the Grim Raider and the Hydra are fifty-fifty)) Battle Frenzy is actually better than +10% more Damage. While Yrwanna starts with Slow, Sorgal starts with Haste, an even worse spell for a Warlock to start with. Better put Magic Guild lvl1 fast to learn Eldricth Arrow for creeping
Levelup strategies: I usually take Summoning Magic rather than Destructive for this one if Wasp Swarm is in the Mage Guild, combined with Expert Sorcery to neutralize slow units like Marksmen Besides magic oriented skills, I also like to take Defense, Logistics and Luck.

Overall Rating: 4/10 without HoF (bug), 6/10 otherwise


7.Lethos - an average hero with a good speciality. Although he starts out with Dark Magic (and you don't have this school in the magic guild), you can use Arcane Intuition to learn from your Shadow Matriarchs. Unfortunately, in HoF you no longer can learn from your own army using Arcane Intuition, meaning you'll have to learn some spells from the Magic Guild or from neutrals
Levelup strategies: I usually take Expert Dark Magic -> Master of Pain (Decay - starting spell); Expert Enlightment -> Arcane Intuition (of course), Dark Revelation, Intelligence; Expert Logistics -> Scouting, Teleport Assault, Death March; Attack/Defense and/or Luck too! For this one, I never take Sorcery because (1) I have enough mana because of Intelligence and (2) Sorcery does not work with Mass Spells.

Overall Rating: 8/10 with Arcane Intuition to learn from your own army, 6/10 otherwise


8.Yrbeth - a bad hero with a bad speciality (only 2*level mana beyond maximum mana cap? only 40 more mana at level 20? and you have to lose the whole day to perform Dark Ritual!). To make her less appealing, she starts out with Dark Magic. I can sacrifice some level up slots (for Arcane Intuition) with Lethos because of his great speciality, but with Yrbeth...
Levelup strategies: I usually take the same things as with Lethos (see above)

Overall Rating: 3/10


Creatures
1.Scout - not a very good creature. The damage is ridiculous at ranged attacks because of Range Penalty + Far Range Penalty (/4 damage!!!), and it's not really that great at melee attacks, either. Though if you look at other tier 1 creatures (Conscripts, Skeletons (without necromancy, please!), etc) you'll see they are not really underpowered. ALL THE TIER 1 creatures are WAAAAY too underpowered because of the 'unfair' growth system. (it's too low for low-level creatures -- if you multiply their price by their growth, you'll see what I'm talking about)
Rating: 4/10

2.Assassin - a good upgrade, thanks to the increase at initiative and the Poison ability. It can be a pain in the ass in large numbers for creatures with high Defense. I highly recommend the upgrade for large battles.
Rating: 6/10

3.Blood Maiden - a fast creature, has the 'stike and return' ability, which is not really useful as they are 'fragile' and will probably die when the enemy retaliates. Sure, that ability is good when you fight against Imps (when there are multiple stacks of them, I often eliminate a stack with the Blood Maidens so there is no retaliation, and thanks to 'stike and return' they return back so that the other stack won't reach them )
Rating: 5/10

4.Blood Fury - a very important upgrade! they receive what the Blood Maiden was lacking of - No Enemy Retaliation (also, the increase at Initiative and Speed are great, too!). This makes them extremely useful at creeping and to eliminate the enemy's 'fragile' units (No Enemy Retaliation + Strike and Return + High Speed = Shooter + No Range Penalty!!! and with an Initiative of 16...). Believe me, no other faction's low-level creatures can even compare with the Furies at creeping (No War Machines and Raise Dead please!) Better upgrade them as fast as you can
Rating: 7/10

5.Minotaur - a poor creature, even poor in what's used for. The Minotaur is the worst 'tanky' unit I've seen. Sure, the Hit Points are high, but if you look at their cost, you'll see it's not really that great. Worse yet, they have only a Defense of 2. This makes the minotaur a more offensive tank, rather than a defensive one (like the Zombie or Obsidian Gargoyle). If you compare them with the Steel Golem, you'll see the minotaurs are way too underpowered. That or the Steel Golems are overpowered, like all Academy creatures, because they have a crappy Hero.
Rating: 5/10

6.Minotaur Guard - with an increase only to hit points by 4, I'd say this upgrade is useless if the 'Double Attack' ability wasn't there. Although it sounds great (double damage - whoa!), the problem with it is that the enemy retaliates before the second strike, and, as Minotaurs are not really 'tank' units, most of them will die before they get the chance to strike again. (this happens unless the Minotaur's target has no more retaliation shots, in which case the ability really becomes great!) I don't recommend to upgrade this creature very early, though, as it costs 10 ore and 5 sulfur! Also, never attack creatures with 'Unlimited Retaliation', as they will retaliate twice (after each strike).
Rating: 6/10

7.Dark Raider - a great creature, has one of the best abilities in the game: 'rider charge', though it has only a speed of 6. This ability is not effective only against high level creatures, but against all heroes with a high defense (Knight, Ranger, Necromancer, RuneMage, etc). It's pretty annoying to know that you achieved such a high defense and it's useless when it comes to Dark Raiders
Rating: 6/10

8.Grim Raider - an even better version of the Dark Raider, the Grim Raider has a speed of 8, which makes it far deadlier because they can reach the front line in one turn. This one also receives +50% more Hit Points (whoa) some attack and defense and has the 'Lizard Bite' ability, which can be very handy in some situations. An extremely important upgrade, I highly recommend it!
Rating: 8/10

9.Hydra - well, the hydras are 'tanky' units used to absorb damage. They can also deal a great amount of damage when they attack multiple enemies, but sometimes it is simply too slow. Overall it's a good creature, though I recommend the upgrade.
Rating: 6/10

10.Deep Hydra - although still slow, Deep Hydras are the real tanks of the Dungeon Army. They have a plenty of 125 Hit Points (56% more than the Hydras) and can even regenerate. It also has a 'six-headed' attack, which can prove extremely annoying for the enemy when using Teleport Assault A great upgrade, though it costs 10 crystals! Don't upgrade them before you have all the dwellings built (for growth). Also, upgrade Grim Raiders first, as that's a very important upgrade
Rating: 7/10

11.Shadow Witch - although this creature has the lowest attack and defense for its tier and average damage, the spells it can cast are great. All of them are on Advanced level, and Vulnerability can be used even with a stack of 1 Shadow Witch (this spell has no duration). It has only 4 shots, so an Ammo Cart is a must!
Rating: 7/10

12.Shadow Matriarch - the attack and defense are slightly increased, though still the lowest for its tier. The Shadow Matriarch receives the Confusion spell; although it is cast with no mastery, it can prove useful against stacks that make huge damage, as it will decrease half of it (on retaliation or when shooting). This creature also receives a new ability, 'Whip Strike', which can prove annoying for the enemy, especially if it casts Slow when the attacker has Haste, or Suffering when it has Righteous Might. This is the only creature ability that triggers for this faction, so Soldier's Luck is used only here (besides being the requirement for Warlock's Luck ) Ah yes, the number of shots available are still 4!
Rating: 8/10

13.Shadow Dragon - this creature deals the highest damage in the game, though the attack and defense are the lowest of its tier. The Hit Points are also very high, even higher than the ArchDevil's (with 1, I know ) and the speed of 9 allows it to reach almost everything. The 'Fire Breath' ability is very deadly, especially if the enemy has clusters of troops or tries to protect his shooters. Also, try not to move anything near the dragon, because if the enemy is smart, he will attack the dragon from a position where it will kill your own troops via Fire Breath. As you can't stop the retaliation process, you will smash your keyboard as the dragons are slaughtering your precious units
Rating: 8/10

14.Black Dragon - although the damage is not increased, the attack and defense are. In fact, the att/def are like other tier 7s, while still dealing the highest damage and having the highest hit points. Oh yeah, it's also immune to magic, making it extremely annoying to kill. And it's not even expensive (though the dwelling IS); in fact, it's cheap compared to other tier7 units (without Spectral Dragons, of course) except the ArchAngel (why the hell it is only 4200 Gold? It is stronger than the ArchDevil and it's only 4200 Gold?!?)
Rating: 9/10


Strategies

NOTE: The Important Mines for Dungeon are the Crystal Cavern and the Sulfur Deposit. Dungeon is the only race that does not need very much Wood/Ore.

1.Building Order - it greatly depends on the map and on the amount of resources you have, but it should not be too different than the following:

Week 1:
Tavern
School of the Unseen Hand
Town Hall
Blood Arena
Magic Guild Level One
Blacksmith
Labyrinth

Week 2:
Blood Memorial
City Hall
Dark Enclosure
MarketPlace
Hall of Intrigue
Hall of Shadows
Hissing Cavern (note, if you don't have crystals for both the Hall of Shadows and Hissing Cavern, better place the former)

Week 3:
Capitol
Resource Silo
School of the Black Heart
Fort
Citadel
Castle
Trade Guild

Week 4:
Dragon Spire
Magic Guilds...
Grim Enclosure
... and so on

Of course, if you have lots of Gold and resources, you can build Dragons in week 3
The main point is to build all the dwellings except dragons as fast as you can (for growth). Then go for the castle and then for the dragons.
Also, don't buy Minotaurs, Dark Raiders, Shadow Witches and Hydras before you place the Capitol unless it's a very rich map! I put the dwellings in week 2 just to have growth, not to recruit creatures. Recruit them later

NOTE: if you have a hero that doesn't start with a good damaging spell, place the Magic Guild right after the Tavern to creep more effectively.


2.Creeping

Dungeon and Sylvan are the best factions at creeping WITHOUT RESSURECTION (no Tent or Raise Dead). In Dungeon, both the creatures and the hero are deadly for creeps.
With Tactics or Windstrider Boots, the Blood Furies can reach the neutral ranged units in the first turn if you place them at the fourth tile from the left, regardless of the number of the stacks. Keep this placement in mind. When I discuss about Tactics or those Boots later, you'll have to know it's about Furies.

WARNING: I think everyone knows that sometimes there are extra low level creeps where there should be high level creeps. For example, if there are Gremlins where it should be a level 2 creep, you do realize that you'll have much more problems fighting them than what I say below, don't you? The following strategies are for 'normal' creeps. (Gremlins where it should be level 1 creep, not level 2! etc.)


Let's start with Level 1 creeps: (everything is related to week 1 here)
Imps, Familiars, Peasants, Conscripts, Skeletons, Pixies - no problem

Scouts - you can handle them with the hero and your scouts, but never use the Blood Maidens, because the scouts are tough at melee and they will retaliate

Assassins - these are a bit dangerous with their poison strike. There will be some losses unless you use your 3rd Hero

Skeleton Archers - more deadly than the scouts in terms of damage, as they are more. Hopefully, your hero will act first and kill most of them

Gremlins - weaker than the skeleton archers because of their low initiative, but they are still too many and you'll have some losses, but at least the hero will act before them for sure!

Master Gremlins - ouch! higher initiative than the hero! This one really hurts! Losses are inevitable here

Sprites - the level 1 nightmare of all factions except Necropolis. You must get your 3rd hero if you don't want losses!


Level 2 creeps:
Horned Demons/Overseers, Zombies, Plague Zombies - no problemo

Stone Gargoyles - in week 2, after you upgrade Blood Maidens, you can easily handle these. Though they die pretty hard, it takes 16 to kill one Blood Fury. The main strategy is to move your Blood Furies a little forward in the first turn, so the Gargoyles won't go at the center of the arena. This leaves you some spaces for retreating ('retreating' here means to retreat from their attack range, not to flee from battle, of course)

Obsidian Gargoyles - Pretty tough. They have more Speed, Initiative, Hit Points and Damage and are immune to most of your destructive spells. If you want no losses at all (they won't kill much, but...), don't fight them in week 2 unless they guard something important or there is a level 2 dwelling on the map that you possess.

Blood Maidens, Blood Furies, Blade/War Dancers - you can handle these in week 2 with Blood Furies, Scouts and the Hero

Archers, Marksmen - the losses are inevitable at week 2, unless you reach these creatures with your Furies in one turn (via Tactics or Windstrider Boots) and your hero has a strong Destructive Spell. Still risky, though


Level 3 creeps:
Footmen, Squires, Minotaurs, Minotaur Guards, Iron/Steel Golems - need I say more?

Hell Hounds, Cerberi - if you don't want losses, and they don't guard something important, don't fight them in week 2. They're too fast!

Ghosts, Spectres - these are unpredictable. Generally, you can defeat them in week 2 (by moving forward with Blood Furies so that they will hardly move, then attack, retreat from their attack range, attack and so on...) If you fight with only one stack, you're almost assured they won't pose any threats, as the Furies are faster. That's why if they split, try to kill as many stacks as you can Of course, there are some times when you miss over and over and over again (I know, the counter is 3 consecutive misses max, but still...) in this case, you really have problems.

(Master) Hunters - don't even think about attacking them in week 2 if they don't guard something important! Even in week 3 they are still a big threat; if you don't have Tactics or Windstrider Boots and your hero does not attack first, you'll have crazy losses (even the Shadow Witch can't withstand their high damage). Sure, having a level 2 dwelling on the map minimizez the threat, but still they are too dangerous!


Level 4 creeps:
Dark/Grim Raiders, (Imperial) Griffins - because they are large creatures, you can block your Furies with a stack of 1 Scout. Place the Fury bottom-right and the 1 Scout in the up-left tile of the Furies, so that they form a diagonal. Then handle these creeps with the Furies and the hero in week 3 (though it's possible to handle them at week 2, it's risky)

Vampires, Vampire Lords - ouch! doesn't work the trick above because they are small creatures. Still, in week 3 you should have some Shadow Witches, so place them in the Bottom-Left corner and the Furies, as usual, at the fourth tile from the left in the front line. The main idea here is to place the Furies at least three tiles away from the Witches, because the enemy will want to block the Shadow Witches and they will attack the Furies if they can! (it's much better to attack the Witches since they have 80 HP and high defense) If you managed to weaken them enough with the Furies and the Hero, they should not kill any of your Shadow Witches and you'll have ZERO losses

Succubi, Succubus Mistresses - pretty tough. They are even deadlier than the Hunters, as they die harder. Attack them from week 3 onwards (though it's pretty risky) and use the same tactics as with the hunters (see above)

Mages, ArchMages, Druids, Druid Elders - your worst nightmare. You can't handle them even at week 3 without crazy losses. Some high-level creatures are needed here.


Level 5 creeps:
Djinns, Djinn Sultans, Hydras, Deep Hydras, Hell Chargers, Nightmares, (Silver) Unicorns - try the same tactic as with the Grim Raiders, though attack them at week 3 or even 4 if you must!

Liches, ArchLiches, Priests, Inquisitors - pretty annoying, especially the Liches because they deal a great amount of damage. Go with high-level creatures if you don't want losses (though I once handled 13 Priests in week 3 with Furies and Assassins and lost only 2 Furies of course, Eruina also helped a lot with Lightning Bolt)


Level 6 creeps:
(Ancient) Treants, Rakshasas, Cavaliers, Paladins, Wights, Wraiths - use the same blocking tactic as with the Grim Raiders (see above), though the Paladins, for instance, are a bit too fast... you shouldn't have problems at week 4 (most of them can be handled even in week 3! especially if you have a lvl 2 dwelling on the map) Here, the placement:
------1-1-
-------W-F
1 = stack of 1 scout; W = Shadow Witch; F = Blood Fury

Pit Fiends, Pit Lords, Shadow Witches, Shadow Matriarchs - use the same tactic as with level 7 creeps (see below)


Level 7 creeps:
All of them are pretty tough; you need high-level creatures to handle these. Wait until week 4-5.



3.Fighting with other factions
First of all, I think everyone knows the Dungeon Hero + Blood Furies are the best choice for hit'n'run and I won't discuss this tactic here

Second, you need to know the following abreviations to understand the placements:
A - Assassin
F - Blood Fury
M - Minotaur
S - Shadow Matriarch
RR
RR - Grim Raider
HH
HH - Deep Hydra
DD
DD - Black Dragon

Of course, I'll only give you some basic information about the placements, as it highly depends on the obstacles it contains

Also, the information available here is for a full Dungeon army; that is, all the creatures are present on the Battlefield.


vs. Inferno - the Imps are your worst nightmare, as Dungeon heroes have low mana and powerful spells. If you can, attack them with Blood Furies in the first turn; Let's see: one Blood Fury kills one Familiar. As the Familiars are 3.2 times more than the Furies, you'll kill one third of these little bastards. But, due to the Demon Lord's low defense and Warlock's high attack, you can kill more than half of the Familiars. And if Luck triggers, they will all die!

The placement should look like this:

DDHHFRRMA-
DDHH-RR--S

with Tactics:

DD-HH-RR-M
DD-HHFRRA-
---------S

with Speed +1 (Windstrider Boots, Aura of Swiftness, etc)
DDHH-RRMA-
DDHHFRR--S

As you see, with Tactics or Speed +1 I can protect the Blood Furies from enemy fast large creatures such as the Nightmare, while still being able to strike. In the first turn, use the Furies to kill the Familiars, or, if it isn't possible, attack the Cerberi. Use the Hero to kill the Succubi and remember to strike the Devils with the Grim Raiders, as it will decrease their huge defense to 0. The Dragons can be used to block Succubi or deal huge damage via Fire Breath and don't forget to use Teleport Assault on Deep Hydra if you have it! Also, as you see from the placement, I use the Assassins and the Minotaurs to protect the Shadow Matriarchs. That's because Assassins are tough in Melee; never consider them weak when blocked



vs. Heaven - the Marksmen are probably the biggest threat. Try to eliminate them with strong spells (Chain Lightning (Master of Storms would be great), Implosion (i know it's not such a strong spell but...)) or neutralize them with Wasp Swarm on Expert Level and Expert Sorcery.

The placement should look like this:

DDHHFRRMA-
DDHH-RR--S

with Tactics:

DD-HH-RR-M
DD-HHFRRA-
---------S

with Speed +1
DDHH-RRMA-
DDHHFRR--S

Again, with Tactics or Speed +1 I protect the Blood Furies from the Paladins and Griffins, while still being able to strike at them. Then use the Grim Raiders to kill the Paladins or the ArchAngels. The Minotaurs and the Hydras can be used to attack the Griffins when they are back on the battlefield after using Battle Dive. Oh yeah, use the Dragons to slaughter the Marksmen through their 'protective shield' (i.e. Squires, Paladins...)
NOTE: I tested the 'Precise Shot' range and if the enemy will block the Marksmen like this:
-------PPM
-------PPS (P = Paladin, M = Marksman, S = Squire)
you can use the dragon to attack the Paladins while not being in the 'Precise Shot' range, but doing this, you won't use Fire Breath to slaughter the Marksmen. It's your choice here
-------PPM
-------PPS
-----DD---
-----DD---

One more note though: if the Griffins do a Battle Dive, move your Shadow Matriarchs at all costs!


vs. Necropolis - the Skeleton Archer Legion will be your 1st threat here. You simply can't do anything against them except using the Hero's spells. One thing to note here is to block them with Deep Hydras using Teleport Assault or with the Dragons. Fortunately, Necropolis units have a speed below 8, which means you no longer need to protect the Blood Furies, so Tactics and Speed +1 are not that important here

The placement should look like this:

DDHHFRRMA-
DDHH-RR--S

Fighting with a Necropolis Army, especially if it's a map with many low-level creeps (many, many skeletons raised through Necromancy) requires great skill.


vs. Academy - use the Blood Furies to attack Djinns and the Grim Raiders the Titans. The hero should handle the ArchMages; the other units are not that 'scary'. Oh yeah, protect the Furies with Tactics or Speed +1 from the Djinns!

Here's the placement:

DDHHFRRMA-
DDHH-RR--S

with Tactics:

DD-HH-RR-M
DD-HHFRRA-
---------S

with Speed +1
DDHH-RRMA-
DDHHFRR--S

The Dragons can be used for several tasks (block Master Gremlins, kill Djinns and ArchMages, etc)


vs. Sylvan - like Necropolis, Sylvan doesn't have any units with speed >= 8 except the Dragons, of course. Target the Silver Unicorns first with your Grim Raiders and then the Treants. The Black Dragon should attack the Druids or Master Hunters. The hero's spells can also be used here
Also, make sure to kill the Sprites fast (with your Furies, for example) as they are very fragile but can deal a whole lot damage, especially if they make a 'triple attack'. The War Dancers should not be underestimated either

Here's the placement:

DDHHFRRMA-
DDHH-RR--S

and with Tactics:

DDHH--RR-M
DDHHF-RRA-
---------S

Don't forget the damn Emerald Dragons and their Acid Breath! Watch out!

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted January 27, 2007 12:06 PM

First of all, great review. Nice build order. I still have some comments about some creature:

Quote:
1.Scout - not a very good creature. The damage is ridiculous at ranged attacks because of Range Penalty + Far Range Penalty (/4 damage!!!), and it's not really that great at melee attacks, either. Though if you look at other tier 1 creatures (Conscripts, Skeletons (without necromancy, please!), etc) you'll see they are not really underpowered. ALL THE TIER 1 creatures are WAAAAY too underpowered because of the 'unfair' growth system. (it's too low for low-level creatures -- if you multiply their price by their growth, you'll see what I'm talking about)
Rating: 5/10


"Not very good creature"!? It's the best unupgraded 1st level creature.
It has 10 HP (!), 2-4 Damage (the maximum of the others is 1-2), 10 initiative and it costs only 60 (a lot of 1st level, but it's more like 2nd level ).
If you would say it comes in low growth and it makes it a little bit weak, I would understand. But to say it's weak?
And being "underpowered" is compared thing. You can't say all the 1st level creature are underpowered to 1st level-that's how 1st level creatures are. And yes-the scout will be overpowered unless he has this poor growth.
If you gave to the best unupgraded 1st level creature only 5 out of 10, what will you give to the others?

Quote:
2.Assassin - a good upgrade, thanks to the increase at initiative and the Poison ability. It can be a pain in the ass in large numbers for creatures with high Defense. I highly recommend the upgrade for large battles.
Rating: 7/10

Any thing about having 14 HP to 1st level creature?

Quote:
3.Blood Maiden - a fast creature, has the 'stike and return' ability, which is not really useful as they are 'fragile' and will probably die when the enemy retaliates. Sure, that ability is good when you fight against Imps (when there are multiple stacks of them, I often eliminate a stack with the Blood Maidens so there is no retaliation, and thanks to 'stike and return' they return back so that the other stack won't reach them  
Rating: 6/10

4.Blood Fury - a very important upgrade! they receive what the Blood Maiden was lacking of - No Enemy Retaliation (also, the increase at Initiative and Speed are great, too!). This makes them extremely useful at creeping and to eliminate the enemy's 'fragile' units (No Enemy Retaliation + Strike and Return + High Speed = Shooter + No Range Penalty!!! and with an Initiative of 16...). Believe me, no other faction's low-level creatures can even compare with the Furies at creeping (No War Machines and Raise Dead please!) Better upgrade them as fast as you can
Rating: 8/10

Just add: The Strike and Return ability is not very useful when you need to block shooters.

Quote:
5.Minotaur - a poor creature, even poor in what's used for. The Minotaur is the worst 'tanky' unit I've seen. Sure, the Hit Points are high, but if you look at their cost, you'll see it's not really that great. Worse yet, they have only a Defense of 2. This makes the minotaur a more offensive tank, rather than a defensive one (like the Zombie or Obsidian Gargoyle). If you compare them with the Steel Golem, you'll see the minotaurs are way too underpowered. That or the Steel Golems are overpowered, like all Academy creatures, because they have a crappy Hero.
Rating: 6/10

3rd level creature tank cant be "a poor creature" if it has 31 HP.
Yes, it has low defence and it's low agaisnt ranged attackers, but still, the HP covers on those issues.
If you just use the basic Haste spell, you will find the Minotaur very useful creature.
It costs less then the Blood Fury.  
And if it's a poor creature, why did you rate it as 6 out of 10?
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted January 27, 2007 12:16 PM

Woah, someone bring out the Donuts! This is excellent - I'm especially amazed by your in-depth analyzis of the Heroes (including which skills to take), your Tactics evaluation against each faction - great and impressive work! - and your creeping guide - excellent!

There are a couple of typos - most distractingly is the fact that you say Grim Raiders get +50 HP where it should be +50 % (that's only 20 HP ).




Also, a note on your rating scheme. You fall into the same pit as almost everybody else: You use a 10-point scale, but essentially only use the top-most grades (7-8-9-10). You even use +'s to distinguish within this very limited range. In that way, you do not establish the full worth of the scale, because the difference between great (9-10) and not so good probably is very small. (I know you use 3 and 5 one time.) If I should give you some advice, try to re-scale your grades so that:

10 > 10
9+ > 9
9 > 8
8+ > 7
8 > 6
7+ > 5
7 > 4

This is just an example, but in that way, you will establish much better the difference between good and bad (unless, of course, you think all the Heroes and creatures are just jolly good, but then what's the point in evaluating on a 10-point scale?).

Another scheme I often use is putting a word to each grade. This actually really helps to figuring out which number to apply. I normally use the following scheme:

10 = Superb
9 = Excellent
8 = Very Good
7 = Good
6 = Fair
5 = Mediocre
4 = Poor
3 = Bad
2 = Very Bad
1 = Terrible
(0 = Abysmal)

Thus, when you say that the Minotaurs are "poor", I'd rate them 4 rather than 6. That also fits pretty well with my overall oppinion of this unit: It's pretty bad, but it does have some redeaming qualities (like dishing out decent damage when unit has retaliated).

That was just an advice from me - as to how I think you might make this great work even better!
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted January 27, 2007 12:23 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 12:26, 27 Jan 2007.

Quote:
First of all, great review.

Quote:
Woah, someone bring out the Donuts! This is excellent - I'm especially amazed by your in-depth analyzis of the Heroes (including which skills to take), your Tactics evaluation against each faction - great and impressive work! - and your creeping guide - excellent!

Thanks

Quote:
"Not very good creature"!? It's the best unupgraded 1st level creature.
It has 10 HP (!), 2-4 Damage (the maximum of the others is 1-2), 10 initiative and it costs only 60 (a lot of 1st level, but it's more like 2nd level ).
If you would say it comes in low growth and it makes it a little bit weak, I would understand. But to say it's weak?
And being "underpowered" is compared thing. You can't say all the 1st level creature are underpowered to 1st level-that's how 1st level creatures are. And yes-the scout will be overpowered unless he has this poor growth.
If you gave to the best unupgraded 1st level creature only 5 out of 10, what will you give to the others?


Well, I was talking about its usefulness on the battlefield that is, with the growth and cost included.

Quote:
Any thing about having 14 HP to 1st level creature?

Oh I almost forgot that

Quote:
Just add: The Strike and Return ability is not very useful when you need to block shooters.

Of course, but as Furies are not very resistant it would be senseless to block shooters with them.

Quote:
3rd level creature tank cant be "a poor creature" if it has 31 HP.
Yes, it has low defence and it's low agaisnt ranged attackers, but still, the HP covers on those issues.
If you just use the basic Haste spell, you will find the Minotaur very useful creature.
It costs less then the Blood Fury.

It has 31 HP but high cost and low growth. Same as with the Scout; see above
Either way, poor is not that bad as you see from my rating.

Quote:
And if it's a poor creature, why did you rate it as 6 out of 10?

It's not very, very poor. 1/10 would be a completely useless creature

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted January 27, 2007 12:25 PM

Quote:
There are a couple of typos - most distractingly is the fact that you say Grim Raiders get +50 HP where it should be +50 % (that's only 20 HP ).


Yes, I meant +50% more Hit Points

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 27, 2007 12:31 PM

ZombieLord, well done!

I have a few comments of course, but i spent so much time reading that I am soon gonna be late for meeting my mates, so I'll comment later I feel this can open nice discussions.

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted January 27, 2007 12:39 PM
Edited by GenieLord at 12:39, 27 Jan 2007.

As Alc said, the heroes' review is wonderful. One of the best untill now.
I'm waiting to see when a is showed near the thread's title.
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted January 27, 2007 12:48 PM

Great review.. I had one in mind about Necro creatures, but never wrote them down.. probably will some time anyway

Quote:
Scout - not a very good creature. The damage is ridiculous at ranged attacks because of Range Penalty + Far Range Penalty (/4 damage!!!), and it's not really that great at melee attacks, either. Though if you look at other tier 1 creatures (Conscripts, Skeletons (without necromancy, please!), etc) you'll see they are not really underpowered. ALL THE TIER 1 creatures are WAAAAY too underpowered because of the 'unfair' growth system. (it's too low for low-level creatures -- if you multiply their price by their growth, you'll see what I'm talking about)

Let's see now, per week how much these creatures give (remember, damage is not the whole point, but):

Scout damage: 42
Pixie damage: 36
Imp damage: 48
Skeleton damage: 46
Gremlin damage: 60
Conscript damage: 73.5

Of course, it would be better to compare them with Skeletons, for example, as they don't have splash attack (like pixies) and same initiative. Sure they do a bit less damage, but they also have a ranged ability -- who cares it does very low damage? it's a bonus to their melee attack, you can use them in melee whenever you want!

I agree it's not better than the skeleton, but not 5/10 either! Be careful what you rate

Quote:
Just add: The Strike and Return ability is not very useful when you need to block shooters.
Press and hold CTRL before you click to attack, and it won't go back

Quote:
5.Minotaur - a poor creature, even poor in what's used for. The Minotaur is the worst 'tanky' unit I've seen. Sure, the Hit Points are high, but if you look at their cost, you'll see it's not really that great. Worse yet, they have only a Defense of 2. This makes the minotaur a more offensive tank, rather than a defensive one (like the Zombie or Obsidian Gargoyle). If you compare them with the Steel Golem, you'll see the minotaurs are way too underpowered. That or the Steel Golems are overpowered, like all Academy creatures, because they have a crappy Hero.
The minotaur's double attack doubles the initiative for attacks (well, at least it is a "rough" approximation). Still with their low hit points (yes, check Doomforge's chart, they are NOT tanks for their tier!) and 'quite' low damage, they are much worse than most tier 3s, however they are reasonably good for tactics such as Lizard's bite, etc.

And I agree about the Hydra being the real tank of Dungeon army minos just suck too much at being tanks!

But I disagree of such low rating, especially for Blood Maidens and other of these creatures -- do you see, you mostly rate only the HIGH tier creatures non-tanky very high, but that's because they cost very much.. rating should be somewhere at a cost/power ratio, not just power as most people do. I'm tired of seeing everywhere low-tier creatures rated below 5 and Blackies & high tier creature 10+ true they're powerful, but they cost a lot more, and cheat at growth.


but overall, it's a nice review of the entire faction + heroes + strategies
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted January 27, 2007 12:49 PM

Quote:
Quote:
And if it's a poor creature, why did you rate it as 6 out of 10?

It's not very, very poor. 1/10 would be a completely useless creature


True, but if you look back in my post, I said I would probably rate it 4 rather than 6. Anyway, that was just a detail and my oppinion, you of course have your liberty to rate it as you feel appropriate.
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted January 27, 2007 12:54 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 13:01, 27 Jan 2007.

Quote:
But I disagree of such low rating, especially for Blood Maidens and other of these creatures

I did not rate only the power, but the strategy . If you look at the Grim Raider's rating, you'll see it's higher than the Hydra's! That's because they are great at strategies.

And the Blood Maiden lacks of No Enemy Retaliation; it's extremely important for such a 'fragile' unit, like the Pixie. But the Blood Fury is great!

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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted January 27, 2007 12:54 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Just add: The Strike and Return ability is not very useful when you need to block shooters.
Press and hold CTRL before you click to attack, and it won't go back


Thanks, I didn't know that.

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Bertinator
Bertinator

Tavern Dweller
posted January 27, 2007 01:25 PM

I have a question for all you dungeon boffs, What the hell are elemental chains!?! and how the hell do you blow them up!?!
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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted January 27, 2007 01:31 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 13:33, 27 Jan 2007.

Quote:
I have a question for all you dungeon boffs, What the hell are elemental chains!?! and how the hell do you blow them up!?!


You don't 'blow them' up. It's not like in beta version.
They act every time a creature with the Fire element hits one with the Water element or when a creature with the Earth element hits one with the Air element or vice-versa.

But some conditions must be met if you are to do those things:
1) Get Elemental Vision ability. Only the Hero will be able to deal extra elemental damage with the Destructive spells this way.
2) Build Altar of Elements so that your own creatures are able to take part in the Elemental damage.

NOTE: if you have Altar of Elements but not Elemental Vision, you can't take part in Elemental damage with ANYTHING.


Also, the Altar of Primal Elements increases the elemental damage by 10%


To see the elements of the creatures, right-click on them and it will say somewhere at the bottom of the statistics: Current Element: xxx

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 27, 2007 02:52 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 15:04, 27 Jan 2007.

Very impressive! Congratulations!

There are bugs though:

Arcane intuition no longer works with your own units. Correct it please

Btw

Blackies can cost low because their dwelling costs is ridiculous, you know. I'd rather pay 1k gold more for them and get the crystal costs reduced by half


another thing: forget about blood furies slaying familiars. They are always as far from the combat as possible, preferably protected by some other stacks (say, cerberi in front of them and pitlords next to them). No, you can't prevent the manadrain. That's why I really hate to focus on magic vs. inferno and academy (with counterspell )

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted January 27, 2007 02:58 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 15:12, 27 Jan 2007.

Quote:
Very impressive! Congratulations!

Thanks.

Quote:
Blackies can cost low because their dwelling costs is ridiculous, you know. I'd rather pay 1k gold more for them and get the crystal costs reduced by half

I know, and I said their dwelling is really expensive

I'll fix the Arcane Intuition thing.


Quote:
another thing: forget about blood furies slaying familiars. They are always as far from the combat as possible, preferably protected by some other stacks (say, cerberi in front of them and pitlords next to them). No, you can't prevent the manadrain. That's why I really hate to focus on magic vs. inferno and academy (with counterspell )

It was just a tip for those that do not protect the Familiars.

Quote:
or, if it isn't possible, attack the Cerberi

That's what I meant

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Bertinator
Bertinator

Tavern Dweller
posted January 27, 2007 03:09 PM

oh, i understand now. I just confused me, the game doesn't make it clear!!

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted January 27, 2007 03:51 PM

You must have gotten bored hearing this but your analysis is brilliant and very indepth! Way to go Zombielord! However I can't agree about the grades of some heroes.
I am hard pressed to believe that the majority of heroes has 8/10. Or rather that they have the same value. Some thoughts.
Sorgal even if changed(?) in HoF his special is still hard to use. Ok it's helpful in creeping but taking dark raiders early may endanger them and I'd rather take hydras, which I may build in week 1 as they are more durable and useful creep-wise. But in bigger battles...Both furies and raiders are targeted from the beginning and you won't be able to do the combo many times. 8 seems too much.
Lethos is not that bad imo as to get 5. He could be a lot better if dark magic was more available but even just 2 lvls of dark for the special pays off both in creeping and with enemy heroes. If you do get some spells and go might you have some potential though it's stil random.
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Bertinator
Bertinator

Tavern Dweller
posted January 27, 2007 03:54 PM

hear hear!

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Betruger
Betruger


Known Hero
empowered mind
posted January 27, 2007 04:00 PM

just pointing out, that yrwanna doesn't start with "slow".
each magic caster (warlock, wizard, necro) start with 1 random spell. After patch 1.4, necro start with raise dead, but wizards and warlocks still start woth 1 random spell.

There are exceptions, i.e Jhora who always starts with magic arrow.

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted January 27, 2007 04:03 PM

Quote:
However I can't agree about the grades of some heroes.

Ok, I changed the ratings a bit

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