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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Runemage Analysis
Thread: Runemage Analysis [ This thread is 3 pages long: (1) 2 3 ]
Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted February 21, 2007 07:02 AM bonus applied.
Edited by Darkeye at 15:45, 21 Feb 2007.

Runemage Analysis

As the Fortress and the Runemages has become my favorites, I here present an analyze of a potential fortress strategy together with it's heroes.

There are of course many ways to develop a Runemage, but the one I have found most useful is described here:


The Armageddon strategy:

Although Runemages only have 30% of getting Spellpower per level (compared to the Warlocks 45), you will have no irresistable magic, access to Lava/Magma dragons and Ignite, causing damage between casting. Furthermore, if you are able to get empathy (requires mentoring), you will get 10% up the ATB each time a creature gets good morale. With a leadership of 5, giving good morale 50% of the time, you may during normal battle use 5 dragons which will on average give you 25% boost on the ATB (50% x 0.5). During a siege, you may place 7 dragons and get +35%. Together with expert sorcery  this will set your hero respectively 0.55 and 0.65 back on the ATB between spellcasting, instead of 0.3 which is the case for only expert sorcery. This will open for lot's of spellcasting.

Minimum level for this optimalization (maximum Sorcery, Enlightenment, Leadership and Destructive magic) provided no starting skills is 19, level 21 with Ignite or 22 with Arcane training (most needed). With no spellpower boost, you hero will on average have a spellpower of 8 at level 21, dealing 270 dmg with Armaggeddon and 90 every turn with Ignite. With Phoenix cape this is raised to 406 (135) respectively.

Your heros Iniative although will effectively be 22 (or 29 for a siege). This applies only as long as you have max creatures (dragons)and they don't wait (so they get good morale). Compared to expert sorcery only, it provides you eith 14 iniative for spellcasting (10/1-0.3). This will give you hero in the case of a siege twice the amount of casting time provided he has enough mana and creatures. Unfortunelately you can't aquire Intelligence with this strategy (blocked with Mentoring)

Furtermore, Mentoring will give all your secondary heroes up to 25% of the XP of your mentoring hero. Provided your main hero has enough XP, you may "mass produce" secondary heroes, giving them expert dest.magic, exp sorcery, arcane training, ignite, and some lavas/magmas. They might be used for sacrificing themselves after casting some armageddon spells agains very powerful enemies to soften them up.

Another path may be light magic. In case of Erling and Helmar this is the case.


The Heroes
------------


Brand

Specialty: Rune Artist:
+20% extra chance of succes with Fine rune +1%/lvl

Starting Skills: Advanced Runelore, Fine Rune

Fine rune is useful as soon as you get some runes in your spellbook. In the beginning when resources are scarce, this comes handy. At level 15 resources are only spent 15% of the time (100%-50%+20%+15%), which makes runes almost free to use. Advanced Runelore makes both Greater rune and Refresh rune available from the beginning as well; the latter may come handy in early battles.

Brands specialty is a purely resource saving one. On maps with few mines/resources he might be very useful, on the other hand if you have plenty of them his specialty becomes redundant.




Ebba

Specialty: Rider
(Black)Bear riders get +1 attack and defence /2nd level of hero

Starting Skills: Basic Attack, Tactics

Basic attack isn't that special and fills up one skill slot in case you like to specialise otherwise. But it is a prerequisite for Tactics which makes the bearriders even more potential, giving them an extra square in the beginning of battle.

No doubt blackbear riders are among the most useful creatures of the fortress, and after my opinion the best 3th level creature in the game (only challenged by the master hunter). You will probably charge and use the bears a lot during game so the bear bonus comes very handy.




Erling

Specialty: Keeper of the Flame
Rune priests and patriarchs get +1 attack and defence / 2nd level of hero.

Starting Skills: Advanced sorcery

Starts with 1 rune priest instead of bear riders.

Rune priest/patriarchs are always useful and you'll use them a lot. The patriarchs have a cross formed hit, making the bonus even more potential. Erlings specialty doesn't open for both using his priests and an armageddon strategy (as his priests will burn). Light magic may rather be considered with Erling.




Helmar

Specialty: Sacred Hammer.
Each time the hero casts a light magic spell on a friendly creature, there is a chance that Righteous Might spell will be cast freely upon the affected unit. The chances are 20% +3%/level, so at level 15 the chances are 65%.

Starting Skills: Advanced Light magic.
Forget about destructive magic with this guy.

Now this is a specialist in Light magic. You want to specialize in all the mass-procucing abilities so you can get Righteous might for free, hopefully on all your units in big battles, effectively raising the attack stat of your hero by 12!

Starting spell: Righteous might. Provides +9 attack already in the beginning. In the start you should rather cast another light spell and hopefully get the righteous might for free (23% chance at level 1)




Inga

Specialty: Master of Runes
Inga has a 25& chance of learning a new rune every level.

Starting Skills: Basic Enlightenment, Scholar

Scholar is very useful for Runemages as it also transfers runes. With Inga, she will also be able to transfer new runes she learn spontaneously. On the other hand, Scholar blocks any chance of getting Mentor (and Empathy), so having her as a secondary hero might be wiser (mentoring her and then getting her to learn new runes).

The fact that she has 25% chance of getting a new rune every level, will on average say that she get a new rune every 4th. If pressed really hard on resources you might even consider not builing all of the rune-guilds, hopefully getting the good runes for free. But under normal circumstances you will like to give her expert runelore, build all guild levels and by this learn 50& of the known runes to Inga. Then, when she levels up, she will learn the runes not in the guild, and better - give them to the other rune mage heroes with scholar.




Ingvar

Specialty: Protector
Defenders / Shieldguard get +1 attack and defence / 2nd level of hero

Starting Skills: Basic Defense, Vitality

Starts with 66 defenders on average.

A pretty straightforward hero. OK to begin with starting with lots of defenders, but the bonus is not very useful later on. Vitality makes the HP of the defenders rise from 7 to 9 (29%). For shieldguard it gets from 12 to 14 (17%), Vitality makes the Preparation ability unavailable.



Karli

Specialty: Sharp blade
Spearwielders / Skirmishes get +1 attack and defence / 2nd level of hero

Starting Skills: Basic Luck, Soldiers Luck

Starts with Ammocart and 28 spearwielders (average).

Since an ammocart costs 2250 for the dwarves and Karli starts with 28 spearwielders on average, worth 1260 GP, you will in fact earn hiring this hero as long as he costs under 3500. The ammocart is most needed for any hero using spearwielders or skirmishes (as you should upgrade to asap). In fact they are quite useless without. The bonus he gets is nice as they are shooters, providing you have the ammocart intact. Luck is always great to have, and Soldiers luck is more useful for dwarves than most other fations as both the spearwielder/skirmishes and rune priests / patriarchs are affected (paw strike is not affected by this). Karli is by far worth it, but to make him your main hero is another questuion




Svea

Specialty: Stormcaller
Lightning-based spells of this hero are irresistible for enemies (but immunities and magic-proof still apply).

Starting Skills: Basic Destructive magic, Master of storms

Not a very good ability. It doesn't improve any with leveling up either (could have caused more damgae/stun). Master of storms makes you have to choose between both Ignite and Master of Ice. and is not nearly as effective as Freezing.





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Card_Ximinez
Card_Ximinez


Famous Hero
no
posted February 21, 2007 07:08 AM

Nice one Darkeye. Ahem, ahem mods... #cough#QP#cough#
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wtf this still exists

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Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted February 21, 2007 07:16 AM

Mods? What do you imply?

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Card_Ximinez
Card_Ximinez


Famous Hero
no
posted February 21, 2007 07:20 AM

Quote:
Mods? What do you imply?


I mean the Moderators.
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wtf this still exists

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Ma_trix
Ma_trix


Adventuring Hero
Carpe Diem
posted February 21, 2007 07:21 AM

He's just suggesting moderators to give this post QP
And what about your work:
- Are you sure that Paw Strike isn't affected by Soldier's Luck? Isn't it just double-check for every tile Blackbear Rider had gone?

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Card_Ximinez
Card_Ximinez


Famous Hero
no
posted February 21, 2007 07:26 AM

Quote:
He's just suggesting moderators to give this post QP


Precisly!

Quote:
And what about your work:
- Are you sure that Paw Strike isn't affected by Soldier's Luck? Isn't it just double-check for every tile Blackbear Rider had gone?


The Paw strike isn't affected by the soldiers luck.
Look for yourself.
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Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted February 21, 2007 07:30 AM
Edited by Darkeye at 07:33, 21 Feb 2007.

Oh, thanks!

I was a bit tired of only writing small parts. As I love to analyze, it's great to could do it here.

Regarding the paw strike, I am very sure about this. The chance of pawing is proportional to the distance travelled, not the HP of the stack. For fortess to have three creatures affected by Soldiers Luck would perhaps be out of proportion as some factions don't have any. Although paw-strike is much better though as you also can use rune of charge on them.

Ah, Card_Ximinez you have already made a link

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted February 21, 2007 08:37 AM bonus applied.

Wrong. The paw strike is affected by both. However you get extra 'rerolls' per tile.

The armageddon strategy isn't bad but it's not easy to use. Exp enlightenment->mentoring, exp destructive->ignite, leadership->empathy plus the rare sorcery is a midsummer night's dream. Only with Erling and if you are lucky enough.
As of 2.1 empathy got a LOT better as you can defend/cast with creatures and still get a good morale, thus it rocks with destructive.
Then if you are lucky and hire Inga, you lvl her up through mentoring and as she starts with scholar she teaches you the runes she gets. Not bad.

Brand's special is great but I'd rather start with a hero who has a specific skill I like. You may be forced to take warmachines if in the first lvls aren't offered anything else. Also his special seems better for a longer game where greater rune comes in play but also more expensive runes. Not good for small games or rather unpredictable. He may end up might or magic while you planned the opposite.

Ebba is pretty strong. I don't like attack that much either but if the blackbear riders can reach shooters/casters in one action that's good enough for me. You can end up with no losses against m. hunters as you play first and the bears are generally very versatile-specialized they are marvellous. Note that frenzy is great for the dwarves in regular battles but mostly seiges. +1 to 500 shieldguards behind walls that just don't die hurts. Great starting army too.

I disagree with Erling. Sorcery is cut out for destructive, not light with the mass buffs unaffected, Also the priests are magic proof, thus great for armageddon strategies. Notice that with mark of fire first(I think it works with soldier's luck) your armageddon gets twice as powerful and with patriarchs that hit multiple enemies...His whole nature seems magic oriented and *screams* for destructive. Which may be bad if you don't get a fire spell but dragon utopias and mage vaults usually are around. But it's destructive or runes if you have few resources and Erling will favour the spells...Too bad I usually skip runepriests until I get the thanes.

Little to say about Helmar. The chance of his special triggering is pretty good and in later lvls it's almost guaranteed in most or even all his units. The extra attack goes well with the dwarves low damage and two buffs in one are a bargain! I consider him and Karli the two best runemage heroes with the difference that Karli has an easier earlygame. No maybe I should also mention Ingvar here too!

Yep, you'd better build runic guild 1 before venturing forth with Inga! I don't like enlightenment particularly though having all low lvl runes for sure is worth it. Sometime after lvl 10 you'll begin to learn lvl 3 runes.

Ingvar? A crazy defensive dude! I don't care about preparation and his starting army when upgraded can creep everything in sight! Well most things anyway. Vitality also helps wound and paw strike to trigger if a little and battle frenzy from attack is a sure bet. You CANNOT normally defeat him in his town with guard post. I should know, I tried it... A suggestion for shielguards: When facing other melee units go within reach of them but as far as possible and let them hit first. Then retreat and do it again. Your losses will be fewer than if you attacked first.

No question about it, Karli is a great main hero. Whether you go might or magic, he is your dwarf! You don't need to upg defenders to creep, his spearwielders can creep on their own just as easily and without an upgrade. The ammo cart turns them into shooters and the chance for wound triggering is VERY noticeable. Without soldier's luck they aren't doing much. Easy access to dwarven luck for armageddon users or against magic heroes and the skills itself boosts damage against might armies. Some runes are also affected by soldier's luck and as a duel hero he has more runes that the others to emphasize on that(also to show off!). With defense, a magic school and leadership he is a force.

Svea? Not that good. You can be sure that these accursed hunters near the unicorns will take that lightning but apart from that it's luck dependant. What if you get ice but not fire spells? And what if you face thanes?
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Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted February 21, 2007 09:34 AM
Edited by Darkeye at 09:35, 21 Feb 2007.

Thanks for the filling answers Elvin!

Quote:
Wrong. The paw strike is affected by both. However you get extra 'rerolls' per tile.
Really! Then it is awsome with Soldiers Luck. You should be able to paw anyting for sure when rune-charging in the beginning. Great for creeping anyting, but sep shooters.


Quote:
The armageddon strategy isn't bad but it's not easy to use. Exp enlightenment->mentoring, exp destructive->ignite, leadership->empathy plus the rare sorcery is a midsummer night's dream. Only with Erling and if you are lucky enough.
Actually, I made it through in my last Fortress game. King Tolghar got it all and rocked. A bit too late with the Empathy though since he got Luck first, which wasn't so much needed for that strategy. The Mentoring made many armageddon-softeners, which killed lots before going down.

Great with the changes in 2.1.

Regarding Erling, I didn't exclude other destuctive strategies, only Armageddon. Still you will loose many priests/patriarchs even with 50% resistance, but it may be worth it because of "Mark of Fire".

You could always hire a Warlock with them as well, making x9 damage at most (empowered,mark of fire,phoenix cloak, warlocks luck) - if your units survive then! Sounds more like a suicide strategy, but if you managed to get your warlock through mentoring it should be worth it!

Karli is great, I go for that. Just that he is for free is good enough itself


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Ma_trix
Ma_trix


Adventuring Hero
Carpe Diem
posted February 21, 2007 10:26 AM

It looks like Erling is perfect hero for "Armageddon strategy" - he starts with shorter way tahn any other to gaining everything you need (his "leveling way" is shortened by Adv. Sorcery).

My personal favourite heroes are:
- Karli - due to starting settings: luck->soldier's luck, around 2x Skirmishers and ammo cart - you can creep with him easily
- Ebba - attack->tactics is great! It allows your Blackbear Riders reach opp immediately and Paw-Strike them. Also Attack + tactics+battle frenzy+offensive formation is something that Tigers really like coz Dwarves have low dmamge output by theirselves.

Now i see Ingvar interesting too - Preparation is nice but it's something that isn't unreplaceable - boosting shieldguards by Ingvar is outstanding - +HP from his speciality, +Att/def, +vitality! And Evlin pointed that he is unbeatable in the city with Outpost

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted February 21, 2007 11:00 AM

Nice summary! Although I think level 22 is extremely hard to reach and you'd need a lot of luck with sorcery. I'd rather go with light& runes. Btw, what's wrong with attack? since the majority of dwarves' units are melee forces and the best rune (rune of berserking) works with melee units only, I don't see why attack is bad. You don't like doing more damage?

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Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted February 21, 2007 01:43 PM
Edited by Darkeye at 13:44, 21 Feb 2007.

Quote:
Nice summary! Although I think level 22 is extremely hard to reach and you'd need a lot of luck with sorcery. I'd rather go with light& runes. Btw, what's wrong with attack? since the majority of dwarves' units are melee forces and the best rune (rune of berserking) works with melee units only, I don't see why attack is bad. You don't like doing more damage?


Thanks.

Last game I got to level 27. When playing on Heroic the enemy gets so many units so it becomes huge amounts of XP. (Had +45% XP from the scale mail, turban and exp enlightenment then).

Light and runes will do as well, but I find the armageddon strategy more to my liking

I don't fancy attack since it only gives 5% (or 6,7% on expert) per level. This is almost as bad as 1 point of primary attack skill.
Luck gives you on average 10% extra damage per level.

The only heroes I find Attack really good with sre the Necros with Battle frenzy on the skel-archers. Archery on Rangers and Knights (esp Dougal) isnt so bad either

With the Runemages I rather prefer Enlightenment (either for Mentoring or Intelligence), Leadership, Luck (Soldiers Luck counts for three of the creatures), Destructive Magic (Ignite), Logistics (Snatch and Swift Mind) and Sorcery if I can get it.

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted February 21, 2007 01:56 PM

Quote:
Last game I got to level 27. When playing on Heroic the enemy gets so many units so it becomes huge amounts of XP. (Had +45% XP from the scale mail, turban and exp enlightenment then).


Nope. It's no difference cuz the game applies a penalty to difficulty gained on heroic. So you gain the same exp as on hard but have to kill more.

Light and runes will do as well, but I find the armageddon strategy more to my liking

Quote:
With the Runemages I rather prefer Enlightenment (either for Mentoring or Intelligence), Leadership, Luck (Soldiers Luck counts for three of the creatures), Destructive Magic (Ignite), Logistics (Snatch and Swift Mind) and Sorcery if I can get it.



That's 6 skills

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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted February 21, 2007 03:15 PM

Good job... But i wished you've gave them some 1-10 score , so we could debate that too...

I will agree on almost everything you say! I dont think you see the great things in Karli, do you? You said: Making him a main hero, is another question. He creeps like the 7 seven dragons! He makes those little shooters evil and will dwarves need luck. Paw strike, mark of fire, Wound and other litte things....

I love Helmar the most, he is awesome. And then you get mentoring(empathy if you like), then hire Inga get all the runes you missed from the rune guild. Then you got the strenght of all runes and light magic! Forget about destrucktion magic... LIGHT MAGIC ALL THE WAY...

These guys are the best... But I will just say it: Svea is just not good, atleast she should have benefits for Thanes, since they are lightning lords(with fiery hands?)

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Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted February 21, 2007 03:41 PM

Doomforge: I think the XP penalty only applies to neutrals
And yes it is 6 skills, but thats my favourites.

Emilsn: I did earlier rank them in another thread but can do so again. From 1-10 after my personal opinion I'll give them:

Brand  5 (depends on resources, also no skill slot occupied from start)
Ebba   7 (bonus always great, but I don't like attack too much)
Erling 8 (sorcery is alway nice and so is the bonus)
Helmar 6 (pretty good specialty)
Inga   8 (Very unique and useful ability from the start, especially if there is only one fortess castle on the map
Ingvar 5 (OK bonus)
Karli  9 (For Free! And as I agree with you . a great creeper)
Svea   2 (Lousy ability)

Yes I do see the greatness of Karli for economical and creeping reasons , but this inteferes with my usual strategy

Yes, Light magic may work very well, I agree. But I am pretty addicted to meteor showers and armageddon, the warlock fan I am

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted February 21, 2007 03:44 PM

Quote:
Doomforge: I think the XP penalty only applies to neutrals


True.. that's what I meant.. oh, you probably played vs. AI? I didn't noticed.

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Darkeye
Darkeye


Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
posted February 21, 2007 03:48 PM

Yes, against the AI. Last game was "Warlords" where the week of collosus came up twice. I must have killed 60 titans and about 30 black dragons at least. A map with very close quarters.

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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted February 22, 2007 06:37 AM

Quote:

Erling 8 (sorcery is alway nice and so is the bonus)
Helmar 6 (pretty good specialty)


I disagree!! !!

Erling: Sorcery are not importen for the dwarves, and if you get empathy its useless... and well, He is a waste of time. He should have gotten the 6 !

Helmar: the greatest hero of them all, I know you love destrucktion, but you can own with: Haste+Bonus spell, then you have: Blackbears and berzerkers + Rune of charge. The battle is over in few rounds.. Since if they dont die, the thanes are right behind the other guys.. And you will already have buffed with endurance or Divine strenght or deflect misseles, Helmar. 10/10

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VokialBG
VokialBG

Hero of Order
First in line
posted February 22, 2007 07:22 AM

Good Skills for Runmage:

This are good skills for Runmage, well you can get them all only on large maps, but this is part of good strategy... I think...



Light Magic --->>> Master of Abjuration --->>> Eternal Light

Many Runmage's specializations are for light spells. In my opinion Light Magic if the best magic shool for Runmage (and Knight too) the "Expert Light Magic" + "Eternal Light" is very, very, very strong combination and very good for final battles too.

Destructive Magic --->>> Master of Fire --->>> Ignite

With "Expert Destructive Magic", "Master of Fire" and "Ignite" the fire spells of the Runemage are to powerful for any class of hero!

Ignite --->>> "Fire spells casted by hero in combat will ignite enemies inflicting 100% of current spell demage to the target during next 3 runds."

"Mana Burst" is not cool but you need it for the ultimate runmages skills.

Defence --->>> Protection --->>> Defensive Formation --->>> Preparation

All Fotress units are good in defence (no contradiction), but also the the basic stat of the fotress hero (and unit) is the Defense skill, so "Expert Defence" + "Protection" and "Preparation" is another good combination. Protection adds +20% defense vs. magics, Defensive Formation is not so great, but you need it for "Preparation", The "Preparation" ability is great with G All the creatures while deschrging the defend command will relitate any enemy, even with "no enemy relitation"

Vitality is good to, the fotress army is huge - can be compare only with Necro's army, so many defenders with +2HP is veeeery nice.

Imagine 500 defendest + 2 HP (Vitality) = WoW + 1000 HP!

Attack --->>> Tactics --->>> Offensive Formation

The Dwarves are week in Attack and demage, so one of the best choices is to increase the attack skill. Battle Frenzy can help too! Imagine 500 defendest + 1 Demage (Battle Frenzy) = WoW!

Logistics --->>> Pathfinding --->>> Snatch --->>> Swift Mind

Logistics is good skill for all heroes, Pathfinding can help in big maps with not many roads. Swift Mind is actually the best ability here - "the Hero receives +25% bonus to his initiative at the start of combat"!

Snatch can help to - to hold your movement points.

Leadership can be used too it is good for all races (Without necro), so if you want, you can  replace Logistics with Leadership...






What i not recommend for the Dwarves:

Summoning Magic, Dark Magic and Sorcery.
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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted February 22, 2007 07:39 AM

I'd say that their selection is situational.

Summoning if you get fire trap or phantom forces(do runes work with them?) and then go for runic armour. One lvl more for exp summoning->voila! 50% reduction in a unit! Imagine how that works with rune of resurrection and the crazy defense they have. Die hard 4.

Dark is always good if you get slow or confusion. Or even suffering. Especially against necropolis shrug darkness can be a gamebreaker.

Sorcery rocks against casters. Simple as that, even if distract is now just -15%. Arcane training is always useful and if you go magic and specifically destructive it is a most important skill.

If not just prefer the rest. The potential is still there but you'll need a little luck to reach it.
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-ghost

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