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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: The Best Creature with no Enemy Retaliation in HoMM5 - Round 4
Thread: The Best Creature with no Enemy Retaliation in HoMM5 - Round 4 This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
VokialBG
VokialBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted April 15, 2007 07:33 PM
Edited by VokialBG at 19:38, 15 Apr 2007.

Poll Question:
The Best Creature with no Enemy Retaliation in HoMM5 - Round 4

I just forgot about this great thread series, and maybe it's time for return.

The topics were source for great debates with the best theoreticians here.

Previous rounds:

Round 1 - The Best Shooter
Round 2 - The Best Caster
Round 3 - The Best Tank-creature

The new Round 4 is for the best creature with "No Enemy Retaliation" ability.

Main theoreticians here (I want to see your posts):

Doomforge
Alcibiades
Emilsn
Elvin
ZombieLord
TheDeath
sq79
GenieLord
Shauku83
dschingi
TowerLord

NOTE: When post a comment, please do not mark the "strongest" creature in the list but mark the creatures, with it's other abilities and of strategic point

Back in the game
____________


Responses:
Blood Fury
Sprite
Cerberus
Imperial Griffin
Deep Hydra
Vampire Lord
Rakshasa Raja
Squire (When use Bash)
Conscript (When use Bash)
Berserker (When use Berserker Rage)
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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted April 15, 2007 07:38 PM

Sprite's NER is its saving grace.  If it attacked normaly, it would die very quickly, as it is rather feeble in Hand to Hand combat.
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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 15, 2007 07:44 PM

Blackbear Rider whit Paw Strike


Well most usefull creatures are winners here ofcurse. Imperial Griffins whit Battle Dive is really great. Cerberus are nice attackers but weak and my favorite no enemy retalation creature would be Deep Hydra.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 15, 2007 08:21 PM

Yay, good to be back in game, Vokial. The last threads brought lots of nice reviews.

Hmmm ... this is a tough one though. I'll start by ruling out Squire and Conscripts because they are not no-retaliation creatures. I know that sometimes they might trigger no retaliation through their bash, but it is not a dependable ability, and thus cand be used completely when making your combat tactic (in the same vain, you can consider Unicorns and Nightmares to be in the list). Also, since I haven't played HoF yet, I can't leave a dependable review on the Berserker.

Deep Hydra
True to stile, I will start from the bottom, with the Deep Hydra which I will put lowest on this list. This may seem strange, being that I rated this creature #1 on the list of Tanks, but No Retaliation is a truely offensive ability, and the Hydra simply is a Tank, not an offensive creature. The damage is poor (amended by the multiple-attack potential, but still), the stats are poor and the initiative is poor. All that spells a horrible offensive unit (but a superb Tank, and is useful for creeping).

Vampire Lord
The Vampire Lord deffinitely got the raw deal when Heroes 5 was developed. Maybe the developers were frightened by the über-powerful Heroes 4 Vampire, and the havoc it caused, but on the bottom line, the Vampire isn't a very good offensive unit in most situations. This is a result of several things, probably - the unit itself has fair but not impressive stats, but suffers from low damage output as a result of the below average base damage and lacking Attack potential of the Necromancer. Furthermore, the Vampire holds a place in the Necropolis army, where it often will have to stand up to higher level units of the enemy army, because the Lich will end up pasified and the Spectral Dragons will be absent for obvious reasons - and the Vampire simply is not strong enough to that. Against a high-tier opponent, it will deal poor damage, and Life Drain will not be able to keep it alive. Being that the Vampire in Ashan lore is supposed to be stronger than the Lich, it would be very interesting to swap these two creatures in the Necropolis army.

Blood Fure, Sprite and Cerberus
I group these three creatures together, because they are indeed very similar in the way they work. All deal out pretty good damage, partly as a result of their base damage (especially the Sprite shines on this part), partly because of their multi-attack potential (the Fury lacks this), and not least because of their excellent Initiative. All units are the epitome of the hit-and-run tactics, and will be worthwhile when fighting slow tanky walkers: It is in this situation that the No Retaliation saves these creatures, because all are they weak with poor survivability, and neither of them would last long without this ability. And indeed, the survivability of these creatures is their Achilles heal - usefull as they are in early game, you will be unlikely to be able to depend on these in the late game, even if they do survive, they will fall quickly. That being said, these creatures stand to prove why the No Retaliation ability is one of the most important in the game.

Hmmm ... this will leave the final two, and this is a really tough decision ...

Imperial Griffin
The Imperial Griffin is not a true no-retaliation creature, but I accept in this category as the Battle Dive ability is dependable. And the Imperial Griffin is a fearsome creature: Good damage potential (Divine Strength will increase damage by up to 50 %), great speed and superb Initiative is a combination that works very well, and the all important battle dive ability - which will cut the number of attack actions by half but yield double damage on each attack - will take the Griffin off the battlefield much of the time, which will help to save it, which is important being that the meagre 35 HP obviously works against this unit as an offensive unit. Of course, this is sometimes a double-edged sword, because the Griffin due to its high Initiative will be likely not to be present on the field when the Knight uses Light Magic spells, and therefore won't gain the benefit of this. And in the end, the Griffins vulnerability is what makes me put it in the second place here.

Rakshasa Raja
For me, the Rakshasa (or, the Naga from previous games) are the epitome of what a No-Retaliation unit should be. It is tough and deals out massive damage. 140 HP makes these guys a real pain to take out, and even with their below-average defence, they will last LONG with the No Retaliation ability. Of couse, their Speed is mediocre and their Initiative is lousy, but with the Dash ability, you can often overcome this problem to some extend, since you can afford to spend the first action and let the enemy approach - even though that first turn might come painfully lait vs. high Initiative units like the Nightmare. Mini arties to raise Speed and Initiative would be mandatory with these guys in my book, and Teleport Assault also opens a wide range of interesting opportunities.

Therefore, my vote will go to the Rakshasa. I'm not sure they are indeed the best unit of this lot, but I love these guys.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 15, 2007 08:30 PM

+QP for alci

I'll post here later

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 15, 2007 08:41 PM
Edited by Elvin at 22:45, 15 Apr 2007.

Wow I didn't see that coming! I had almost forgotten the previous rounds and looking back I can tell you that it was a good initiative VokialBG. Let's see now...

Conscripts are out of the picture. Even with 2.1 where we get to use them their importance is low as it is the least useful unit in its faction in any role and without soldier's luck bash doesn't trigger too often.

Squires are a lot better with a protective special but their importance has dropped lately. They were awesome for protecting massive marksmen stacks which cannot be gathered anymore. Plus even if you boost them with training their tactical potential is limited along with their low speed and initiative.

Blood furies are a brilliant no-retaliation unit taking on outrageously big armies but I have to exclude it as well because its endgame significance fades...It has the makings such as good damage, strike and return but also high initiative yet in the end it is hampered by low growth and survivability.

Sprite is very important for earlygame but also proves to be of assistance in the endgame as it is affected by luck and avenger, not excluding its spray attack. It has the luxury of having a horde dwelling but also being a caster apart from its natural no retaliation properties. It is fast, it does good damage, can use hit&run tactics with creeping and as a caster: Can do some damage from afar during the first weeks(as from then on wasp swarm gets weak) but also cleanse which is an amazing perk. It is more of a support unit, not a damage dealer. Oh also it attracts fire that would hit the hunters!

The cerberus is good but has other disadvantages. A costly upgrade in wood and sulfur and minimal hp. You cannot keep it in battle for long so you'd better get a good first multistrike which their initiative, tactics, luck and hellfire often allow. In the endgame you don't care because you can raise pitlords from them but they are not an overall useful unit for any battle. More like one use.

Almost the same can be told for the berserkers. Outrageous resource costs, easy to die and better accumulated for an important battle. However their tactical potential is huge and even if they fall it matters little because they get the job done. With rune of charge and rage they are great ranged killers. Can greatly benefit from rune of dragonform which increases their defense-which in turn is transferred to attack via rage. Rune of resurrection can bring them back just like that. Not to mention that with rune of berserking they hit twice(no retaliation) and possibly with luck. Generally they do what the blackbear riders can't-deal damage. Thumbs up for cheap horde dwelling!

Vampire lords are pretty good themselves tactically. Can teleport, replenish health(though not much) and gather in numbers with necromancy. But they are really not as effective as they sound. Easy to kill and not much on damage-dealing potential.

The rakshasa rajas are a powerhouse with adequate damage and hp. However: They have low initiative hence they are a low threat and in a big battle trying to use dash does more harm than good. You can haste them before but even that does not save them. They are meant to guard the wizard, not take an active role themselves. However their role can be customized according to what mini arties you use on them. I usually try two from these: defense, luck, initiative, speed.

Imperial griffins shine in many areas. Flying, good values, speed, initiative and battle dive. Yet once they land they have a really hard time. Too bad they usually get to battledive before you use a mass buff...To wait is equally bad!

Finally the deep hydras. For the faction they are in they are brilliant. They can survive much hardship even aoe cast from the warlock and go on to regenerate. Their no retaliation seems more to keep them alive than deal damage.


Hmm for all their flaws I just love the rakshasas. They are survivors and can weaken a stack with just few attacks. They cannot make many tactical action on their own but they don't have to, a correct combination of buffs and mini arties can do the job beforehand. They just feel solid, you get what you pay for. And I admit that I like the freedom in their customization even if the costs for that are limiting.


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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted April 15, 2007 09:01 PM

Blood Fury, very fragile but if protected in high numbers they are the best creature in the game.(my favourite anyway)

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 15, 2007 10:30 PM

I just don't see the Rakshasa Rajas so potential what Nagas used to be. Average damage is decent but not great. Health is good but initiative is just low. Speed can be low but initiative could be better.

What is the initiative of Rakshasa Rajas whit Dash anyway?

First turn initiative is 8 and next tre turns it's 16. When first turn is not used 16, 16, 16 has to split in four 48/4 = 12 of average speed but after that ATB drops back to 8.

If the skill would only give 2 x double initiative the outcome would be equal to normal initiative but it's 3 times so it's 1.5 x initiative or 1.1/3 x initiative.  

It's pretty confusing to count Dash skill usefullness 'how many more turns it will get' but it will be little more tough.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 15, 2007 10:39 PM

Quote:
Blood Fury, very fragile but if protected in high numbers they are the best creature in the game.(my favourite anyway)


Yeah, well, too bad it's one of the most useless creature in the endgame battles anyway

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 15, 2007 10:41 PM

It's not about the initiative. If you dash you may get hit in the meanwhile which can make dashing a futile and harmful action.
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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted April 15, 2007 10:47 PM

you must be playing a different game, because a +100 stack of furies is a battle winner

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 15, 2007 10:49 PM

Quote:
you must be playing a different game, because a +100 stack of furies is a battle winner


as a dungeon player, i guess I know what I say about: check my earlier posts in dungeon analyses thread. 100furies gets focused by any player in 1st turn, with 16% survivability and 0 warlock's def they die in next. Yeah, "great" unit.

Naw, I'm not going to write this again

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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted April 15, 2007 10:53 PM

you're talking as if a battle is math, but that's not the case
and if the enemy's focus is on them then it's good  for your other units

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted April 15, 2007 11:00 PM

Believe me he knows that. And he has played enough games to see for himself what happens, maths are just another way of proving that.
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watcher83
watcher83


Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
posted April 15, 2007 11:03 PM

ok

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executor
executor


Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
posted April 15, 2007 11:50 PM bonus applied.
Edited by executor at 23:51, 15 Apr 2007.

1. squires, conscripts & similar do not have 'no enemy retaliation'. They're out. If there is a non-100% chance of not suffering retaliation, then it is not a no retaliation.

2. 'No retaliation creatures' are ment to deal great damage without suffering couterstrike to weaken enemy. Thus they should be offensive.
Hence hydras are out.(only in extreme and VERY RARE cases you TA them, so they don't prove offensive, too low initiative).
However, they six-headed attack is great(if you are lucky enough to be able to use it).
Also vamps do unimpressive damage, so they are as well out. They are shadows of their counterparts in both HoMM 3 & 4, being a mediocre unit in my opinion. And their life drain with so low dmg and not impressive hp doesn't help either - I NEVER had problems with knocking them down.

3. There are two main fields where such creatures prove their usefulness - in creeping and in 'the battle finale'. IMO 'winner' should be good in both. Thus:
Sprites are out - when enemy has creats of tier 4 or higher, they cease to be very usefull. Nevertheless their dmg, initiative and insect fellows for 5 mana prove very useful in the very beginning - especially vs gremlins and archers(not marksmen). Then they shine, and they are top tier 1 unit in the earlygame.
Furies are out - they are extremely useful for walkers(with tactics/aura of swift./these +1 Spe boots, every) creeping. Strike and return is great for their survivability. But in the final battle they fail to live till, um, their third move(and this if they are lucky... - for more info read Doomforge's posts in any topic about dungeon). In such short time they won't do any significant damage. However, splendid tier 2 unit.

4. Such unit should hold the lines a bit - not be killed outright after first blow. This means it should be durable as well.
This means I say no to cerberi.
They aren't a bad unit, though. deal great damage, but they fail to live long enough to deal it once more. They are, however, relevant in final battle, both as great first-blow unit, and as pit lords in the afterlife .

Then we're left with Imperial Griffins and Rakshasa Rajas. We should now compare usefulness of both. It is high in both cases.
Imperials battle dive is good and well known, so I won't elaborate on this much. One thing I wanted to emphasize that when the're up in the air they are IMMUNE to any curses or damage, which cannot be overpriced. They can live long and take out some nasty stacks easily(especially marksmen, runepriests and liches, even squires, hydras and treants if necesary). And even if they are not in the air they are splendid - unlimited retaliation, great dmg(further increased by inquisitor's divine strenght ). Nevertheless they lack durability when on ground, so they can be quickly disposed off(hopefully they'll do some payback via retaliation).
Rakshasas have decent durability, splendid damage(second to wraith, 'palajousting' not counted ), good speed, extended(usually)via artificier to 8+. But they lack initiative. This problem can be mended with dash, which gives them 11 avg effective initiative(if you act like dash - normal - normal - dash - normal - normal - dash... - best one on terms of effective initiative), which is very good. But we can't forget that they need to 'waste' their precious first turn to put this system into motion. Moreover, with 8 initiative this first action comes rather late. So the start to act splendid after 1-2 turns, which may cost you. yet they are a splendid unit. TAing them helps a lot, but neither have wizards logistics often nor have they nothing better to cast in first turn .
Both of these are worth my vote, I like rakshasas more(but I still can't forgive them replacing my beloved nagas ), but I think Imperials are of slightly higher importance to haven. I choose them no 1 with a feeling of guilt for rakshasas...

Edit: When I wanted to vote for them, a misclick happened and I gave my vote to cerberus. Blast .
BTW, can my vote be changed?
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dschingi
dschingi


Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
posted April 16, 2007 12:07 AM

Voted Rakshas, too


They are just a decent unit overall. As most of you already pointed out, Sprites, Furies and Cerberi are excellent offensive units and can be of great use, but they lack of defensive capabilities. While creeping, one tiny mistake can be fatal - and in hero vs. hero battles they die fast. The Rakshas don't really have this problem.
Building costs are a different story... but I guess this thread is just about the creatures themselves.


About the Dash ability

Let's take a look at how it can increase the initiative at most:
If you dash every 3rd turn the initiative is doubled constantly. As only two thirds of the Raksha's turns are used to attack, the initiative is multiplied by 4/3 in average. In other words it is increased from 8 to 10.666.
Of course it's not always a good idea to use dash, e.g you need to block a shooter fast, or there is a stack you need to take out fast and if you used dash he would act before you ... the most important one is probably that you shouldn't use dash if your opponent is about to whipe out your whole stack (or most of it)... still I think it's useful even if Paladins or Nightmares already stand right next to them. The advantage of dash is that you can decide when to use it by yourself, and of course often the Rakshas don't even waste their first turn by using it because they couldn't reach the enemy anyway...
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 16, 2007 12:19 AM

Quote:
Edit: When I wanted to vote for them, a misclick happened and I gave my vote to cerberus. Blast .
BTW, can my vote be changed?


Unfortunately, no.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 16, 2007 10:12 AM

Thank you, Elvin

Wise post, executor.. I agree that furies make a great level 2, of course. Don't make me wrong: they are good for their level, very useful and such.. and they can give warlocks a ton of free exp early. They are just bad at the end, and some people overrate them, that's all..

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 16, 2007 02:31 PM

I think that Griffins are the best. Rakashas? When did you even see them on battlefield? Never? Oh yeah, i remember, few patches ago when titans  were costing fortune.
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