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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Duel Rules
Thread: Duel Rules [ This thread is 3 pages long: (1) 2 3 ]
Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted May 05, 2007 04:07 AM

Duel Rules

Ok, we have a thread about duel customizer, in which we discovered how badly balanced some combos are (klaus+7xpaladins+staff of nether+ring of speed+antimagic spell for example). It would be good to create some basic rules to prevent such ridiculos imbalances. I am expecting our best duelists (especially dfortae) to help me with this thread.

Here are three most obvious things we should follow when creating duel heroes..

NO RING OF SPEED AND STAFF OF NETHERWORLD

Those arties are so powerful together that EVERYBODY would have to use them in order not to get smashed. Besides, they are way too good for duel mechanics. Definitevely need to be banned.


NO DOUBLE STACKS

Ok we have seen how fun is to make 7 x max palas or emeralds (which gives 84 paladins, for example), but it's ridiculous, an army composed of specialist and only the creatures he boosts is obviously better than any other army. To prevent such nonsense, I think it would be best to ban cloning stacks (only 1 stack of each type allowed - no dual-triple-quadruple-nonsense). The exception should be necropolis (possible to double the numbers of each stack) because they can do it in-game due to necromancy and haven (but it should get limited here, the game allows quadruple paladins but it's ridiculous enough to limit it in the duels - how about double growth aswell?)

NO WYNGAAL

He is bugged, that's enough.




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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 05, 2007 06:37 AM

Hey don't hate my heroes

NO RING OF SPEED AND STAFF OF NETHERWORLD

Yes, initiative arties are way too good. Double stacks are needet for 1-3 level creatures but not higher. No multiple stacks tough.

But then what about Warlocks? 27 P * Empowered Meteor Showers will wipe out any army.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted May 05, 2007 07:13 AM

Well, I suppose that leads to another simple rule:
NO WARLOCKS
or at least no empowered armageddon
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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted May 05, 2007 07:30 AM
Edited by Elvin at 07:35, 05 May 2007.

These were my first thoughts after playing a few duels but I thank you for making a thread about it. It is best that this community has agreed on some general principles- if one needs to win a duel he should not count on the game's loopholes and exploit the editor but count on his own skills and creativity.

About the multiple stacks I had tried to get 7 stacks of deep hydras and with an empowered lucky armageddon(+phoenix feather cape) I killed the opponent in the first casting. I lost a pack of hydras or so. But the paladin abuse is no better, they obliterated Ossir with little effort.

I agree that necro heroes should be able to get some double stacks but not with the knights. The reason is that the armies are of 3 weeks' worth with hero at lvl 15 and it would not be possible to have both double paladins AND angels. Either the one or the other, by no means both.
I know that normally you could not have all the units available either at this time but that's another story. We should strive to be as fair as possible without limiting our gaming experience!

Maybe ever allow a hero to have ONLY one elemental boosting/protection artie, more than one seems too good. Phoenix feather cape and empowered lucky armageddon seems an overkill really, especially if you boost the spellpower. If not then not to allow having both that and its respective protection...

Also we should try to find a limit in the hero's preset cost, find a universally acceptable one. With multiple stacks of high tier and good artifacts it is easily above 22k so we should probably find something a bit lower. I'd like to see what's your opinion on that and if so around which cost lvl.
____________
beware a monkey
-ghost

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted May 05, 2007 07:53 AM

I will definitely contribute to this.  I am just now downloading the latest patch (been busy with work).  I will play with it and report back, but it sounds like major imbalances are obvious.  I'll probably make "adjustments" to the REGULAR armies that already exist, and present those to balance "regular" duel armies first.  Then I will look more into rules for totally dynamic armies.  It's a shame they implemented it this way...

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted May 05, 2007 07:58 AM

Quote:
I agree that necro heroes should be able to get some double stacks but not with the knights. The reason is that the armies are of 3 weeks' worth with hero at lvl 15 and it would not be possible to have both double paladins AND angels. Either the one or the other, by no means both.
I know that normally you could not have all the units available either at this time but that's another story. We should strive to be as fair as possible without limiting our gaming experience!


Conscripts, Griffins and angels can't be trained, and therafore shouldn't be allowed to appear in double-triple-whatever numbers.

Quote:
Maybe ever allow a hero to have ONLY one elemental boosting/protection artie, more than one seems too good. Phoenix feather cape and empowered lucky armageddon seems an overkill really, especially if you boost the spellpower. If not then not to allow having both that and its respective protection...


Banning armageddon seems a nice thing, given that many people are willing to abuse it, especially dwarves and wizards. The stat sytsem is flexible: you can take awaythe points from att and def and put them all to spellpower, which is unreasonable and leads to some impossible-to-get-in-normal-game runelords with 15 SP and such. That leads to many annoying armageddon guys: come on, we don't want duels to change into "HAHA I NUKED YOU" sh*tgame. Or, a game in which, to succed, you HAVE to get certain arties (fireprotections and +resistance arties in this case) to win. In duels, you should be able to play whatever you wish, and still be able to win.
So, do you agree with rule four:
NO ARMAGEDDON ALLOWED
?

Quote:
Also we should try to find a limit in the hero's preset cost, find a universally acceptable one. With multiple stacks of high tier and good artifacts it is easily above 22k so we should probably find something a bit lower. I'd like to see what's your opinion on that and if so around which cost lvl.


20k seems ok for me. The idea is to get a decent army, with a strong backup of arties aswell, not some standard week 3 metagame wimps.

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted May 05, 2007 08:19 AM
Edited by Elvin at 08:20, 05 May 2007.

I don't know about no armageddon yet, as long as we don't get phoenix feather cape or not boost spellpower to max. Of course that raises another question because it would be kinda unreasonable to have a max to spellpower. Maybe.
____________
beware a monkey
-ghost

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 05, 2007 08:27 AM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 08:29, 05 May 2007.

Could somebody explain me how exactly does this editor work? I cant use it myself:/ I mean what exactly are restrictions with choosing units skills arties..and what is this 20k you are talking about?

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted May 05, 2007 08:30 AM

There are no restrictions. There is just a cap on each tier(3 weeks with castle), you can't learn spells that your skills don't allow to learn, or get abilities without following the skill tree.
____________
beware a monkey
-ghost

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 05, 2007 08:33 AM

Ok so my suggestion would be that when creating a hero you can use triple stack of lvl 1-3 units double stack of lvl 4-6 utits and one stack lvl 7 units. How bout that?

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted May 05, 2007 08:49 AM

That is exactly the point even double tier 5 stacks can create an imbalance as a combined double hydra stack- a guarantee to survive armageddon. And the triple growth for the rest matters not because everyone will make double for the high tiers that way.
____________
beware a monkey
-ghost

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 05, 2007 08:54 AM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 08:56, 05 May 2007.

Ok so there can be added that you cant have more than 1 stack of lvl 7 more than 3 stacks of lvl 4-6. Double hydra stack is no argument for anything.

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Elvin
Elvin

Hero of Order
Stillness within Movement
posted May 05, 2007 09:01 AM

It's just an example. I suggest you try playing a few duels and tell me if your opinion has changed. In any case that's my opinion, not of the majority's as there have not been many replies yet.

Also...Does anyone know how to erase your custom made heroes? Some umbalanced that I made appear when I use random hero and I'd rather they weren't a likely candidate.
____________
beware a monkey
-ghost

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 05, 2007 09:43 AM

@Elvin: Just delete hero from DuelPresets folder (or just edit them by opening them in map editor) and also delete files from Editor\H5MMods\*Folders name*

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted May 05, 2007 01:59 PM
Edited by dfortae at 14:09, 05 May 2007.

Ok, I've played a few duels, created several "balanced" armies based on the pre-existing duel heroes.  I improved some (Anwen and Sinitar for example) and made some worse (Razzak and Deleb).

There are definitely some limitations in place now that growth is used for calculating armies.  Heroes specializing in lower level creatures now have a disadvantage while heroes specializing in higher level creatures have an obvious advantage.

I don't think it's possible to limit the stacks (except for Necropolis).  Some heroes, like Orson, need many zombies to take advantage of his special ability.  Same with Razzak.  So, I think if we decide to limit stacks, it needs to be based on a formula and based on the level of the creature (paladins are level 6 for example, need to limit them in some way).

The very powerful artifacts should also not be banned, but used carefully based on the army, attributes, spells, etc., of the hero.  For example, the initiative raising artifacts are perfectly fine as long as the armies can be slowed, or less numbers exist, or they have low initiative to begin with (necropolis) for example.

This is going to be much more complicated than just banning things right off the bat.  If that is done, the duel will get pretty boring.  Here are the major categories of "things" one can set:

1) Attributes (defense, attack, spellpower, etc)
2) Spells (limited somewhat by skills)
3) Primary Skills/Secondary Skills
4) Artifacts (limited somewhat by the location where one is used)
5) Army

The numbering system the duel editor uses is poor.  It tries to figure out what "class" your army is in based on some of the things above.  It ranks higher level creatures as many more points than lower.  The problem is this in regards to artifacts.  It doesn't consider how MUCH of the army is affected by the artifacts.  For example, the ones that raise damage by +1 are excellent for high numbered low tier units.  Terrible for high level creatures.  The class number doesn't care about this.  This is why WE have to set the rules on this to make it where it can be used, but in reality bump the level of the army up into a new class.  I had a REALLY hard time trying to get Orson's army up to the 22000+ level, so I had to "cheat" and give him some artifacts that boosted his attributes, but then lower his attributes MANUALLY so that he met the 22000+ level but wasn't overpowered.  This is the best way to try to adjust for the flaws in the numbering system.

I'll post more later...

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted May 05, 2007 04:39 PM

I had some time to think about duplicating stacks.  Here is the best idea I can come up with.  It is based on the tier of the creatures.

Tier 1 = Maximum of 5 stacks
Tier 2 = Maximum of 4 stacks
Tier 3-4 = Maximum of 3 stacks
Tier 5-7 = Maximum of 2 stacks

This will allow one to take advantage of the damage/hit points artifacts for lower tiers yet not be totally overpowered.  The higher tier units can only be a maximum of 12 combined (although sometimes we should see 10 or less, not ALWAYS 12).

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted May 05, 2007 06:27 PM

I think duel army editor system should work better whit existing creature power ratings. Now it's 6 Arch Angels compared to 72 Marksmans and high level creatures benefits this too mutch. But if it would be 6 Archangels whit power of 6153 = 36918 and Marksmans power is 199. That would be 6 AA vs 185,5 Marksman and i think that is mutch better.

Also every stacks should be limited to let's say 30 000 power and no multiple stacks. Low level creature specialist would be now really strong but if there is good creature cap it's not problem. This would  force you to play whit all (or atleast) most of your town creatures just like in real battle.

Perhaps they will change this system but for now this favors too mutch high tier troops and creature specialist when there arent caps.

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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted May 05, 2007 07:35 PM
Edited by dfortae at 19:36, 05 May 2007.

I've created altered versions of several heroes now.  I'm calling them version 3 .

So far I've made tweaks that I see fit to:

Anwen, Razzak, Deleb, Irina, Jhora, Sinitar, Deirdre, Ossir, and Orson.

Anwen now has Imbue Ballista with control of his Ballista.  Also has 150 or so War Dancers now.  Added Fist of Wrath to his spell list for Imbue arrow of his rain of arrows and ballista.  Even though it does low damage, it's nice against things normally immune/resistant to spells (black dragons, steel golems, etc).

Razzak now has some gargoyles mixed in with his 150 steel golems (down from 240).

Deleb's army has been cut back.  No pit lords at all.  But now she has 180 upgraded horned overseers (good deal for her since she has artifacts to increase damage and hit points).  This also helps with Gating but doesn't make her do ridiculous damage like before.

Irina's army has been cut back.  Same griffons, but now no archers, about 260 conscripts, regular angels instead of archangels, etc.

Jhora's army has been cut back.  30 mages, less gremlins, golems, etc.  Her spells no longer cost 1/2 mana, but her mana pool is the same.  This means she can EVENTUALLY run out of mana in long battles.  Oh, and she now has 36 upgraded Djinns with an artifact that increases their initiative.  A post on here about how to use Djinns motivated me to include these.  It makes them be able to do quick high damages, but ensures Jhora can't sit back all battle casting spells non-stop without actually fighting.

Sinitar's assassins have been replaced by 70 minotaur guards.  Increased mana pool.  Extra black dragon.  Higher attack and other adjustments.

Deirdre has had some increases as well (army cut back a little bit because of how the new duel editor works).

Ossir has the same number of master hunters, but lost sprites (for cleansing), a few treants, and 10 silver unicorns.  Lost a few druids as well.

Finally, Orson had some good buffs.  He has 170+ plague zombies, attack and defense increased, lowers luck and morale of the enemy (with artifacts).  Also has 50 mana now so when fighting inferno he doesn't TOTALLY loose all his mana.  Lost the ability to do mark of the necro now though.

That's about it.  I'll probably find somewhere to post these once I finish making all the "regular" duel hero adjustments.  I've tested them all out and they are about as balanced as I can get them right now.

More later...

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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted May 05, 2007 09:44 PM

Thanks for starting the thread doomforge.

If we can agree on some rules etc., the best part is that you can upload the heroes the same as if it were a map file.  And it goes into hommv\ duel presets, so we can have a standard set for everyone to use for tournament duels.
____________
Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.

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Doomforge
Doomforge

Hero of Order
Mayhem Elemental
posted May 07, 2007 02:21 AM

dfortae can you upload your fixed heroes somewhere?

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