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| Thread: Disputing facts again Shadey |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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violent_flower
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posted July 20, 2007 02:36 AM |
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Disputing facts again Shadey
Shadey states:
Quote:
I'm sure that it won't be hard at all to determine the "real" sexual identity of that individual. Although I'm sure you already know that there is no such thing as a "true hermaphrodite" in humans. "What the hell do they do?" Well as best as I can answer the question. I'd say that they ought to behave as their sex is
determined. If they are males, they ought to marry and have sex with
females. (if at all possible) If they are females, then vice versa.
Taken from this site which is one of many cases shadey:
Lynn Edward Harris, born Lynn Elizabeth Harris, 09/13/50 at 6:12 p.m. P.D.T. in the city of Orange, California, USA, south of the Los Angeles County line.
On November 8th, 1973 at age 23 Harris was clinically diagnosed by a team of specialists as possessing a rare, complex, congenital condition known as "True Hermaphroditism" [Intersex] with undescended, sub-sized ovotestes i.e. "gonadal mosaicism" found in approximately 1-in-25,000 births. [Statistic source: New England Journal of Medicine, 01/14/98.]
Due to ambiguously-formed genitalia at birth [stunted penis; divided scrotum; and vagina], Harris, (mal)assigned "female" by both parents and pediatrician, was raised as such and continued living in said social gender role until age 29 (1979) --- six years after the disclosure of this fixed, irreversible, yet-evolving biological state.
After puberty, minor neurological problems eventually abated. Sexual development remained at a pubertal level while naturally-occurring virilization of secondary characteristics compounded. As Harris' anatomy had developed clearly along non-female lines i.e. no breasts, no milk glands, no child-bearing hips, no menses, sterility; early beard growth, male vocal chords, male skeletal structure, male musculature, male libido, male genetic patterning, he felt justified to elect to live full-time in the male social gender role beginning February, 1979.
For the following four years (1979 to 1983) he lived in a sexual legal limbo, still carrying the original-and-only, valid female I.D. which now appeared both obsolete and fraudulent. On numerous occasions when asked for proof of identification, he was accused of strangely utilizing a 'counterfeit' or 'stolen' I.D. card belonging to some woman.
Desire for a permanent legal remedy to rectify all I.D., thus making it consistent with his outward persona, had become crucial. The subject approached the Superior Court, County of Los Angeles, wrote his own petition and pled his own case for 1) a change of middle name from "Elizabeth" to "Edward"; and 2) a re-issued birth certificate changing the sex designation from "female" to "male".
Based upon his unusual, documented medical history, on February 18, 1983 the Court, realizing the case had merit, granted the two-part request by favorably adjudicating Case # 437625. With the judge's signature, Lynn Elizabeth Harris no longer existed: She had become a legal non-entity.
Within a 30-day grace period following the Court proceeding, said change was registered as legally required with the Social Security Administration, the Secretary of State, and the State Registrar of Vital Statistics. State and public agencies, intended to function as "subservient" to the courts, are obligated to enforce and comply with all rulings as handed down.
In a blatant and unconscionable fashion the Vital Statistics Branch dared to supersede the Superior Court and rejected the simple filing of the matter because -- as was stipulated in their California Health and Safety Code -- 'no plastic surgeon's affidavit of surgery had accompanied the approved, submitted petition.'
However, within said code, no clause existed which mandated one's person to 'go under the knife' in order to obtain "characteristics of the opposite sex" -- whatever they may be. Since any type of "sex reassignment" surgical procedure to define his ambiguous anatomy had never been his objective at any time, in his petition Harris -- even after having investigated the pros and cons -- disavowed any need for possible risk of mutilation, disfigurement, and / or rejection of foreign implants. Unequivocally, Lynn Edward Harris had proven to the Court -- but not to the Sacramento bureaucrats who, then, deigned to issue an amended Birth Certificate reading "Lynn Edward Harris" / "Female" -- that Nature had bestowed upon him "characteristics of the opposite sex" from birth.
Harris, denigrated by this mockery of his civil status, was already making preparations to sue the state and / or approach an Appellate Court for enforcement of his case which had seen prior favorable adjudication.
After a four-month delay, the Chief of the Vital Statistics Branch fully recanted and admitted to having mis-handled the filing from the start. Finally, the preferred middle name combined with, not an amended, but a brand new Certificate of Live Birth with sex designation listed as "male" was formally issued on June 2, 1983. All records of the original female middle name and female birth certificate from 1950 were permanently frozen and sealed for life.
This case, which the Vital Statistics Branch could never define in their terms as having "an opposite sex," has gone uncontested and unchallenged by other bureaucratic, legal, and medical authorities. Subsequently, Harris is presumed to have set the landmark or legal precedent in California, if not the nation, of one's obtaining a legal sex revision without benefit of any cosmetic or reconstructive "sex reassignment"-type surgery.
Further details are outlined in Harris' copyrighted [as yet unpublished] autobiographical manuscript, "More Lives Than One".
Harris has become a pioneer / spokesman for Intersex freedoms and transgender social justice; an advocate for a moratorium on surgeons' gratuitous, so-called "corrective" or "normalizing" genital operations, customarily performed on Intersexed neonates before they reach an age to render informed consent --- unless dramatic genital ailments or malformations (often caused by life-threatening metabolic disorders) are present and surgery is warranted. Genital modification is not a panacea. It could facilitate one's "apparent" social sex (re)classification on paper; but it could never automatically revamp ones "actual" or "true" (often inconsistent and conflicting) chromosomes, genes, gonadal composition, glandular / hormonal output, overall brain circuitry and, in turn, one's inherent gender identification and sexual proclivity.
Mr. Harris and his case since garnered publicity and media exposure in six different countries and now appears on the world wide web. He has also amassed over 100 credits as a widely-published author, collaborator and contributor of articles in academic textbooks, journals, anthologies, and popular books in the burgeoning field of Human Sexuality; and as a guest lecturer / panelist at universities, colleges, medical trade seminars, private sector organizations; and on nationally-syndicated radio and television programs.
Lynn Edward Harris is single, resides in Los Angeles, California, leads a mainstream lifestyle and is a devotee of all classic arts, cultural events, antiques, travel, and metaphysics. Any inquiries for additional information or professional bookings may be e-mailed to the address listed below.
copyright 1998 Lynn E. Harris, all rights reserved.
For pictures go here: http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/BornHermaphrodite/
So tell me Shadey what will happen to this poor soul as your church condemns him because he/she does not know how to feel and just wants to have a normal life. Normal is more of a term that churches such as yours tries to put in a pretty place all by itself. It does not want to disturb the word or make exceptions.
Maybe this will open your heart and the hearts of those in your church so you can learn that the Bible is a small guideline for those that can't think for themselves, for those that don't know they are not suppose to kill, rape, and steal.
I should clarify that this is not all that it is for and there are plenty of people that read the Bible that can think for themselves. However, in this case where I find statements such as those I have quoted from Shadey, it is clear he has not done his homework.
To make such statements such as, there are no true hermaphrodites, its absurd, he wants to force the Biblical aspect without being able to back it up. This is a problem that people are born with every year, again if you had done your homework before making such a outward ignorant comment you would have known this.
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Daystar
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posted July 20, 2007 03:26 AM |
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Oh, boy, another VF Shadey war. VF is of course winning.
Question: Is is pronounced HERM-a-fro-diit, or HERM-a-fro-diit-E?
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Shadey
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posted July 20, 2007 04:35 AM |
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Edited by Shadey at 04:47, 20 Jul 2007.
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I see quite a bit of political jargon in your post, yet I don't see any scientific evidence to show that a "TRUE" human hermaphrodite exists. Why don't you provide evidence for that case before creating another thread to flame and troll with?
By TRUE human hermaphrodite I'm talking about someone with a fully developed AND functional female and male genitalia. Obviously psuedo-hermaphrodites exist with male and female "tissue."
What do you stand to gain by making all of these specific hate threads against me? Do you think that somehow you're a better person by doing so?
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GothCowboy
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posted July 20, 2007 06:11 AM |
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shadey, did you not read the whole thing especially the beginning? what part of doctor is not scientific? it is documented proof of a hermaphrodite. as well a stat that says that 1 in 25,000 are born as well.
if VF told you the sky was blue, you would say it was red, come on, get real, please. i honestly think you are just trying to cause a problem or two. of course that is my opinion, but i believe the evidence is out there in these threads.
and by the way, i do know a hermaphrodite. the proof is laid right in front of you, all you have to do is read it.
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Aculias
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posted July 20, 2007 06:15 AM |
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Of course it goes a little deeper then that.
I dont think Shadey is causing any personal attacks.
He has his own beliefs.
This is just simply a heated debatable issue.
Or issues.
I have an idea but i wont post it here 
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Daystar
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posted July 20, 2007 06:26 AM |
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You know those political cartoons where Bush is standing on a teeny iceburg in the middle of the ocean saying "I refuse to accept Gobal Warming as an Issue!!"?
Shadey is being like that.
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Aculias
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posted July 20, 2007 06:36 AM |
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People will state thier views of what they truly believe in.
Using the bible as an excuse as well as misintrepeting it.
You believe in the bible as much as you believe in your family.
Some people love god more then thier own son.
They believe it so much.
This is one of the hardest debates.
Not this political crap that usually raises the same debates over & over that it gets really old 
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violent_flower
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posted July 20, 2007 06:40 AM |
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"It is rare for both types of gonadal tissue to function. Individuals are either 46, XX or 47, XXY.However they have the hormones of a female and a male therefore producing mixed feeling about their sexuality."
Yet not impossible for this to happen Shadey.The case that I presented may have political undertones to you, however it does not take away from the fact that is what he/she was. The cases are rare however; seriously do not engage me on doing the research on this for you, I have already done my reading.
This has been common knowledge when the rare cases have come about, it is not as saturated by the media anymore. This thread was not meant for retaliation I think you are just being sensitive to my prior thread, get over it.
The point that you missed was, again, what does your soup kitchen cult do about this? What happens when you are sitting around your big table upstairs and reminiscing about the queer that you just could not get to repent for sin that was not his/her doing, but the doing of your God?
Then as you are about to get your angel wings for all your efforts, you find out that he was she? Where does your tolerance lye then Shadey?
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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Aculias
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posted July 20, 2007 07:10 AM |
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Edited by Aculias at 07:11, 20 Jul 2007.
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Ah nothing like a good flame war.
It is rare but scientifically there are a few stories I have read about it.
Shadey did mention if at all possible.
Meaning just like in the bible about Christians marrying Christians.
He did not say they have to .
It is mentioned that they should.
it's a belief.
if possible means that it dont always happen but it should.
You can not change the way a person really feels.
I dont think it takes a Fast food Employee to figure out what is really going on in here.
I think everyone of yall are misreading everybody's reply lol.
You cant change a prejudice hater who goes by the book.
As well as not being all that wrong either within the book.
Now that is what sucks.
Yall need to quit doing what I used to do & misreading every reply lol.
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Daystar
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posted July 20, 2007 08:03 AM |
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sorry, I gotta ask this:
Why do you seperate every sentance into paragraphs?
Like this.
I don't mind really.
It's just a point of curriosity.
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted July 20, 2007 11:55 AM |
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probably to get a point across.
either that or its Acu's way of writing.
who know?
"Its the end of the world as we know it!"
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Doomforge
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posted July 20, 2007 02:09 PM |
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Quote:
The point that you missed was, again, what does your soup kitchen cult do about this?
His soup kitchen cult is also my soup kitchen cult, and although I do not agree with shadey's radical statements as a Christian, it still offends me that you talk about my personal feelings and beliefs like that. It's so modern to spit on religion and offend theists, isn't it?
I hope you will think over what you're saying next time. I am happy to see most ppl are tolerant towards gay ppl, hermafrodites and so on, but I'm sad to see most people hate theists and don't care for their feelings even a tiny bit.
Even though all the mods are atheists and won't give you a -QP for intolerance, it doesn't mean you should that. Really, miss VF : (
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted July 20, 2007 02:29 PM |
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i love it how theists act like the minority when in fact nearly all people are religious...
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Doomforge
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posted July 20, 2007 03:50 PM |
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umm? I thought it's exactly different out there..
In Poland, yes, the majority is religious. But hey, Poles keep saying they are the last outpost of theism in Europe! 
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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 20, 2007 04:10 PM |
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Quote:
So, what are we dealing with when we discuss human hermaphrodites? Actually they are more properly called pseudohermaphrodites (which is the term used by biologists) or "Intersexuals" (which is the term that seems to be preferred in the politically correct circles - check out the web page at www.isna.org). If we examine the course of human embryological development we can see that we are all originally equipped with the potential to form both the male and female genitalia (which are actually outgrowths of early types of kidneys), but we have only one set of gonads. During normal male development, the gonads form into testis, the male based genitalia enlarge and the female based genitalia regress. In female development, the opposite happens, gonads become ovaries male genitalia regress and female genitalia enlarge. Sexually ambiguous individuals develop in a way that both sets of genitalia enlarge. Notice, that these individuals still only have one set of gonads. These gonads will either be testis or ovaries and that will truly identify the sex of the individual. In some cases, the gonad will itself be ambiguous and share histological characteristics of both testis and ovaries, but in this case it will be able to function as neither. So the individual that develops is not a true hermaphrodite since they lack any functional reproductive organ.
I think this perty much settles it. I'll accept your apology VF.
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mvassilev
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posted July 20, 2007 04:45 PM |
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Quote:
umm? I thought it's exactly different out there..
In Poland, yes, the majority is religious. But hey, Poles keep saying they are the last outpost of theism in Europe!
In Estonia, I've read that it's only 10% theists. I'm not sure if that's true.
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violent_flower
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posted July 20, 2007 05:49 PM |
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Again you avoid the question by trying to prove there is no true hermaphrodites. I urge you to do some more research as there are cases that have documented, the fact that maybe you don't understand it is not any fault of mine.
The hormones that drive us sexually exist in hermaphrodites and unfortunately sends mixed signals to them in regards to which sex they are attracted to. Is this in simple enough terms for you Shadey or do you wish to copy and paste to me some more BS trying to prove that they don't exist?
Since they do, just answer the question, or has your pastor not got back to you yet with some sugar coated answer that will retract all your judgmental statements you regurgitated in the other thread?
Doom States:
Quote:
His soup kitchen cult is also my soup kitchen cult, and although I do not agree with shadey's radical statements as a Christian, it still offends me that you talk about my personal feelings and beliefs like that. It's so modern to spit on religion and offend theists, isn't it?
I’m sorry if you feel this way, as I was not trying to offend you or your kitchen…
I want people, such as Shadey, to be aware of the things that they say in the name of religion, especially when he has sought out an entire group of people such as gays to puke his beliefs on.
Doom, I think that you are understanding of this and would not offend a group of people this way. So accept my apology, as this is in no way directed toward rational thinking Christians whose beliefs do not include stepping on loving people such as those that reside in our gay communities. So while you may be offended, so I’m I by his Bible power.
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Doomforge
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posted July 20, 2007 07:03 PM |
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Setitetart
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Reality check....
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posted July 21, 2007 01:22 AM |
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While Shadey sees NO scientific basis for it, let me assure you they DO exist.
And I welcome you Shadey to go ahead and tell one that they don't exist.
Good luck with that...
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~ Peter Lorre to Vincent Price at Bela Lugosi's funeral
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Shadey
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posted July 21, 2007 04:38 AM |
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Quote:
While Shadey sees NO scientific basis for it, let me assure you they DO exist.
And I welcome you Shadey to go ahead and tell one that they don't exist.
Good luck with that...
If they do exist... You'll be able to easily refute the evidence I quoted, specifically that human hermaphrodites exist with both sets of functional and fully developed testies and ovaries.
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