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baklava
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posted August 05, 2007 02:59 PM |
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Bible
I didn't want to post this at the "I gave up on believing in God" thread cause I think it's really time for that thing to freaking die already (thread, not God, of course  )
Anyways.
I was kinda bored lately and, between two Boris Akunin's books, I decided to read something else for a change. So I browsed the bookshelf a bit and found an old and kinda dusty book labeled "The New Testament".
Hm.
Why not, I thought. I was tired of random quotes being tossed around on forums so I decided to read it in its true context.
From reading it, after surviving the first weird part where exactly 42 generations of Jesus's ancestry were named (for those who read the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, this might be more than just any number ), I've found out that it's completely and utterly fascinating.
Now, you are split in two groups:
Those that will say "Yes, it is wonderful, isn't it?"
And those who will say "Wtf Bible is crap"
As usual, both of you are both right and wrong.
Why?
For those who can understand it, it is quite clear that the Bible of today is crippled. The Church has, through the ages, taken parts out, and added its own parts, and that is so obvious in the book itself that there are just no words that can describe it.
At most parts, Jesus is preaching freedom, faith and rebellion against organized religion. He says that those who now have little will have more; and those who have a lot will have less.
In a few other parts, he contradictory says how those who have much will be given more, and those who have a little will have even less unless they serve their masters correctly.
Wtf.
Clearly some words have been put into his mouth to suit the needs of the Church.
But it is still phenomenal how the message has managed to contain itself within the book if you read it carefully and with understanding.
He openly calls the heads of organized religion hypocrites, showing them how they are wrong in many ways. But he sees that after him, more wars and false prophets will come, and warns his students about that - saying how others who claim they are Christ will appear, and how many will believe them, and how much bloodshed will happen; and people will turn against people etc. Then he adds how that will all culminate through the most horrible of events, and that only those who pass through all that with true faith, not believing any false prophets and hypocrites, will reach salvation.
That isn't my personal view on it or anything, that's just what he openly said.
But it seems to me that he pretty much described the religions that were to come; especially Catholic along with the Vatican.
The Church left those parts though because:
1) they already threw out everything except 4 gospels, putting these out too would be too much
2) they already edited these 4 that were left as much as they could, thinking they preserved a more-or-less believable story and the messages they wanted.
They knew that people will either read the book shallowly or not read it at all, so they just said the Churches view about what was written in it.
With people of today, it is quite similar. Church believers still don't understand the book, or don't even read it (which is probably a much more often case); and Church opposers are too bitter and full of prejudices to read and comprehend it.
So basically I think Christ would be pissed as hell if he saw this, cause the people are split in
1) Those who don't understand him but are pretty sure it has something to do with giving cash to an old guy with a funny hat
2) Those who don't understand him and don't even try to, cause it's far easier to just dislike him.
That aside, there is a few fun parts where Jesus is obviously pissed off with the sheer dumbness of people around him. For example, he tells a completely clear metaphoric story, and the apostles are like "what are you trying to say?" and Jesus is like "sigh, for how long will I have to explain everything to you retards?" Quite clearly, that's what's written, just in more archaic words... Ok, and without calling them retards...
It's a great book anyway, and I can't really describe you my views completely until you read it yourself. So, a warm reccomendation for everyone, catholic, orthodox, atheist, agnostic, lutheran, anyone is to read it. Carefully. Not just read it so that you can say "ha I read it". It's a historical/fantasy/philosophical book, not something people need to believe in lest they go to hell, and certainly not just a simple tool of the Church.
Opinions? Preferrably from someone who read the Bible, with understanding?
I'm counting on you grownups here, cause most people of my age are still probably into Harry Potter or something...
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mvassilev
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posted August 05, 2007 05:43 PM |
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I have read some parts of the Bible. I've never read the whole thing. However, the parts that I have read are completely ridiculous. A loving God? Look at the Book of Job, where he kills Job's servants just to test one man. Abolishment of the Jewish laws? Jesus said that he didn't come to abolish the laws of the Prophets, but on the Sermon on the Mount he does just that.
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I didn't want to post this at the "I gave up on believing in God" thread cause I think it's really time for that thing to freaking die already (thread, not God, of course )
I disagree. I think it's a great thread that's seen some great debate, and I hope that it can come back to life. And I wish you posted this in there instead of making another thread.
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Doomforge
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posted August 05, 2007 06:59 PM |
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I disagree. I think it's a great thread that's seen some great debate, and I hope that it can come back to life. And I wish you posted this in there instead of making another thread.
what's to debate there? We can't convince anybody to either believe or not believe in God. What is the point? That thread should die ages ago.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted August 05, 2007 07:21 PM |
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oh..kay...
if not the God thread... then how about Khaelo's own The Bible the name of the thread is quite appropriate wouldn't you say? ..its almost a ...miracle 
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friendofgunnar
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posted August 05, 2007 07:27 PM |
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angelito
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posted August 05, 2007 07:46 PM |
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what's to debate there? We can't convince anybody to either believe or not believe in God. What is the point? That thread should die ages ago.
Why you think so? You think every human creature has a belief or dis-belief since the very first day of life? Only because YOU can't be convinced, doesn't mean others can't be either.
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Doomforge
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posted August 05, 2007 08:10 PM |
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angelito,
just scroll through all the pages of the TA's thread...
not even one person who hesitated..
it happens in every god thread I've ever read..
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mvassilev
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posted August 05, 2007 08:40 PM |
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I disagree. I think it's a great thread that's seen some great debate, and I hope that it can come back to life. And I wish you posted this in there instead of making another thread.
what's to debate there? We can't convince anybody to either believe or not believe in God. What is the point? That thread should die ages ago.
Indeed, debate on any subject rarely changes any debaters' opinions. However, it's fun and intelectually stimulating to debate. I like seeing other people's opinions and talking about them (even if I don't agree with them), and I like looking at what people have to say about my views. I'm sorry if such a debate is painful or unpleasant for anyone, but you are free not to participate in it if you don't like it. But don't post your views without expecting a response.
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Doomforge
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posted August 05, 2007 08:52 PM |
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It's ok to debate about God or lack of God but the TA's thread quickly turned into qoutewars, laconic answers, monosylabic answers (like, "no" as an answer to a whole post.. -_- ), in other words, it become a nuisance to read and to participate in. Since most of God threads sooner or later end like that (on most of the forums..), and it really never ever makes ppl to reconsider their statements (but often turns into flame discussions), this one should die like the rest of them. ;p
Besides, it's like disputting "why do I like Green colour" and trying to convince Red colour fans that green is better.
You can say "so don't participate in such threads", ya, but I like such threads. I just don't like what they become.. sooner or later.
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Homer171
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posted August 05, 2007 10:06 PM |
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I have often tough i could read the big book from cover to cover but i have always been too "busy" for that. Most interesting was the last chapter in new testament called Revelation. Destruction of the world and
judgment of mankind in the end. I'm pretty sure they described Dragons and Chimeras as those beasts against army of Heaven.
Clad to hear you liked it Baklava. I might open the dusty book sometime myself.
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mvassilev
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posted August 05, 2007 11:19 PM |
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It's ok to debate about God or lack of God but the TA's thread quickly turned into qoutewars, laconic answers, monosylabic answers (like, "no" as an answer to a whole post.. -_- ),
These quotewars were responses to individual parts of a post. Nothing wrong with that. Unless you're referring to using quotes from the Bible (nothing wrong with that, either). Monosyllabic answers? There weren't many. Anyway, I just don't agree with you about that thread. I think it's great.
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and it really never ever makes ppl to reconsider their statements
Most people are firm enough in their belief (or lack of it) so they won't be convinced by a few people on the Internet. But it's still fun to debate.
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(but often turns into flame discussions)
Usually the product of intolerance or simply of a lost temper.
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this one should die like the rest of them. ;p
I think that thread should be revived.
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Besides, it's like disputting "why do I like Green colour" and trying to convince Red colour fans that green is better.
Except that this difference actually matters.
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You can say "so don't participate in such threads", ya, but I like such threads. I just don't like what they become.. sooner or later.
Good to see that you like these threads. I like them too. And if you don't like what they become, then don't act in a way that percipitates their becoming such.
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baklava
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posted August 05, 2007 11:19 PM |
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Hm... 2 posts of 9 are on-topic. Good enough
@Lith
Dude how on Earth was I supposed to know about that thread? It was created like before I even joined HC... :/
Meh we might as well continue with that thread here... There's nothing wrong with remakes 
@FoG
Hm, funny, I like Asimov yet I never saw that book Will probably read it when I find it
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I have read some parts of the Bible. I've never read the whole thing. However, the parts that I have read are completely ridiculous. A loving God? Look at the Book of Job, where he kills Job's servants just to test one man. Abolishment of the Jewish laws? Jesus said that he didn't come to abolish the laws of the Prophets, but on the Sermon on the Mount he does just that.
That is why you should've read the whole Bible, and not parts of it. Jesus says that some laws of the prophets were brought just to appease the masses, and he never supported that. Instead, he sticked to the laws that prophets originally intended to bring, and neglected the laws of the society of that time.
Whether God as the being which controls everything exists and whether it is merciful and how is far beyond human comprehension. And who is any of us to judge what's eventually good or bad for us? Do we have knowledge of alternate destinies that could've awaited us depending on what happened when? Everything has a reason. The fact that we mostly can't see that doesn't mean the reason doesn't exist.
What I was mentioning was Jesus's message to ordinary, mortal mankind. A philosophy of unconditional peace and care, one of the first in the world. Perhaps Jesus was merely one of ordinary humans, just like everyone else - but with a higher and more beautiful purpose.
@Homer
Yes, that is an interesting part, especially after some research based on that which I did afterwards. I became interested namely in digging up whether Hitler was the Antichrist and, strangely enough, a lot of evidence suggests he was But hey, those are personal views just for fun, conspiration theories are one of my specialties.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 06, 2007 09:23 AM |
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what's to debate there? We can't convince anybody to either believe or not believe in God. What is the point? That thread should die ages ago.
You can, just as much as you can convince someone to turn pro-life or to vote for Hillary.
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Besides, it's like disputting "why do I like Green colour" and trying to convince Red colour fans that green is better.
...
Those are opinions. If you believe in god you are either right or wrong.
And the church has edited the bible because some of the discarded gospels agree that the old testament god is a nutcase, and we cant have anyone saying that..
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Doomforge
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posted August 06, 2007 09:47 AM |
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but since you can't prove it, it also belongs to "opinions" category.. 
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 06, 2007 10:27 AM |
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I for one have read the whole bible, a while ago though.
I think it's a great novel
For starters there's the story of Noah, where god decided to kill every man woman and child and every animal of every species bar two.
Or you might fancy the allegory of Sodom and Gomorrah where god nuked a town because it housed some homosexuals, with blatant disregard to collateral damage. All this despite the fact that Lot even offered up his own virgin daughters to be raped to spare the angels. Sure, they might have spared Lot because he got out in time, but no such luck for Lots wife who god turned into a pillar of salt for looking over her shoulder as her home was obliterated. Though not to worry, Lot got over it pretty quick as his aforementioned virgin daughters got him drunk and had sex with him, getting them both pregnant.
Thank god he is so merciful to spare such a morally righteous family.
If that great tale wasn't enough, the bible sends it back for a re-run: The Misogynistic Men Strike Back in the book of Judges, I mean, if it worked once it can work again right? A priest and his concubine are staying in a mans house when again the people ask if they can sodomize the priest, the old man politely declined their offer, instead offering the concubine and his own maiden daughter for them to have their way with, and humble them. Good thing women have no rights or free will, otherwise they might protest! But no, both women were merely gang-raped by the men of the city, and when they collapsed on the doorstep of the kind old man at dawn, he greeted them with an abrupt "Up, and lets be going." But lo, there's a twist! She was dead, surprisingly.
What ever shall the old man do? The audience is riveted.
Cry? Sissy. Mourn? Cliche. Bury her? Boring. Try something original;
He "took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces and sent her into all the coasts of Israel."
Right....
As you do.
Though one might say that story was just the story of Sodom, lost and found again with a little creative license. Good book, though, the Bible, even if it isn't so reliable.
Then there's everybody's favourite, when god asks Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Now anyone in their right mind would find such a demand insane, and anyone who asks you to MURDER YOUR OWN SON is surely deranged, let alone worthy of worship. But nu-uh, not this god. He's a sly fox, and was just having a laugh. Abraham of course, being the golden head boy he is, passed with flying colours by demonstrating his ability to discard all common sense and morality, and subject himself to gods simultaneous act of child abuse and bullying.
The moral of this story? Um.... ****, uh.... Well, god spared Abraham, didn't he!
He's so forgiving, even of his own pranks.
But wait, maybe not the case in Judges chapter 11 when Jephthah made a bargain with god. God would make him win a war (what a great lord) if he'd sacrifice "whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return." Yes, you hear correctly. WHOEVER COMES TO HIS HOUSE! He doesn't even know who he's going to sacrifice! It could be anyone! It could be Jesus himself! But of course, knowing god's record on the matter, he wont have to sacrifice anyone, god will spare him, right? He comes back from slaughtering in his war to find his daughter (they get a hard run in this book don't they?)
So he explains the situation to his daughter, who says fair enough, he is the all-loving god, but just let me go into the mountains and get laid. So she did, and returned. So here Jephthah is, her in the pot, waiting.... Nothing. Absolutely nothing from gods part. No sparing. All that's left is one cooked daughter.
Or what about all the chatter about god's jealousy. Like, for instance, when Moses went up to Mount Sinai (which the people below would be killed for merely touching) to get the 10 commandments, and came back to see they'd made a golden cow and started sacrificing to it. So moses smashes the commandmens, and the cow, melts the gold and makes the people swallow it, then commands Levi to take a sword and slaughter them (around 3000). Surely this is enough to sate god's jealous rage. Oh how wrong you can be. God sends his favourite plague down to them, like a Christmas card.
But at least Moses had a fairly clean record other than that.
That is, if you forget the men he slaughtered in the Midianite cities in the book of Numbers. He did leave the women and children, however, but on gods command, slaughtered all the boy children, and raped all the virgin girls; "But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
Or when Moses was ordered to "Take all the heads of the people (Moabites) and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel."
Hmm. maybe this Moses character isn't so innocent after all, or is he just the victim of god's jealous wrath?
ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves. For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Exodus 34:13-17
If Moses was a little dull you can always flick the channel and check out Joshua in the battle of Jericho, who did not rest until "they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21)
A little excessive, but hey, nobody's perfect.
But god is a fan of slaughter. He professes in Deuteronomy 20 how if the people who do not live in the holy land that all the men should be killed and all the women carried off for breeding.
Fine compared to those who already lived in the promised land; for "But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing tht breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them... as the Lord they God hath commanded thee."
It's also useful for laying down the law, the bible.
It's handy to know that the following are punishable by death according to Leviticus 20:
-cursing your parents
-committing adultery
-making love to your stepmother or your daughter in law
-homosexuality
-marrying a woman and her daughter
-bestiality (the beast is killed too)
-working on the sabbath
Even just gathering sticks on the sabbath, as they found a man doing; "And the Lord said unto Moses; the man shall surely be put to death: all the congregation brought him without the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died."
As you can see the old testament is a great book.
Christ, I wouldn't give it to my kids though.
And for the New Testament:
... just kidding.
Maybe later.
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Doomforge
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posted August 06, 2007 10:44 AM |
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yeah the Old Testament is a bit.. umm 
You can view it as a one BIG fairytale, although Chrisitians prefer to see it a mix. Since it's extremely old, incomplete, based on stories and "fixed" a few times, it can't be really accurate and logical. That's what the New one is for.. to straighten it out.
It's better to stick with the New One or to be an atheist actually
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 06, 2007 11:17 AM |
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People who take the old testament literally make up approximately 50% of the US electorate.
You can't pick and choose...
Perhaps we should throw the entire Old Testament out?
Besides, the New Testament is arguably worse.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 06, 2007 12:09 PM |
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Why is the New Testament worse?
The New Testament morally bankrupt and it's later date gives it more relevancy and a more profound effect on society.
Here's a makeshift list:
-Jesus teaches his disciples to abandon their families. "If any man come to me and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
-Teaches sado-masochism. God incarnated himself as a man; Jesus, in order that he should be tortured and executed in atonement for the hereditary sin of Adam.
-Jesus wanted to be betrayed and then murdered in order to redeem us, why take it out on Judas and the jews? As is revealed in the long lost Gospel of Judas, the case is made that Jesus asked Judas to betray him.
-If god wanted to forgive our sins, why get himself tortured in order to persecute the jews?
-If the Old Testament is symbolic, then Jesus had himself tortured and executed in a vicarious punishment for a symbolic sin committed by a nonexistent individual.
-In Revelations, the number of those 'sealed' is limited to 144,000; 12000 from each of the 12 tribes of jews. These people can only be sealed if they "did not defile themselves with women", which means that they cannot be women.
-Matthew and Luke cannot agree on the Virgin Birth. They contradict each other, Matthew saying that Joseph was "warned in a dream" to make an immediate escape and Luke says that all three stayed in Bethlehem until Mary's "purification according to the laws of Moses"
-Luke states that Jesus was born the year when Caesar Augustus ordered a census, at the same time as when Herod resigned in Judaea and Quirinius was governor of Syria. However, Herod died 4 years BC, and there is only one claim ever made to support a census by Augustus, and even that is six years after Jesus birth.
-One of the lost gospels uncovered 6 years ago, claims that the god of the old testament is a ghastly emanation from sick minds, and hat Judas claimed that Jesus was from the immortal realm of Barbelo (a heavenly desinatin beyond the stars), and that Jesus is an avatar of Seth, the third son of Adam. Regognizing that Judas is at least a minor adept of this cult, Jesus takes him to one side and awards him the special mission of helping him shed his fleshly form and thus return heavenward. He also promises to show him the stars that will enable Judas to follow on.
Sounds alot like Scientology to me.
-The prophecies in the old testament say that the messiah will be born in the city of David, Bethlehem. However Jesus parents were from Nazareth and if they had a child it was most likely delivered in that down. This accounts for the fabricated tales of Augustus, Herod and Quirinius, in order to move the nativity scene to Bethlehem (where no stable is ever mentioned)
-Jesus makes large claims for his heavenly father but never mentions that his mother is or was a virgin, and is repeatedly very rude to her when she makes an appearance to ask how he is getting on.
-The Virgin Mary appears to have no memory of the Archangel Gabriel's visitation, or of the swarm of angels. In fact it appears as if Jesus birth was a shock, in all accounts.
-Luke refers to the "parents of Jesus" as only Joseph and Mary
-Mary had four other sons, including another called Jesus, in the gospel according to James. How did she go on producing children, by the man Joseph who only exists in reported speech?
-In Matthew 15:21-28 we read the contempt for a canaanite woman who asked for help, saying he would not waste his energy on a non-jew
-Many stories exist where none but Jesus and the person he is talking to are around. Who writes the stories?
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Doomforge
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posted August 06, 2007 01:12 PM |
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Quote:
-Jesus teaches his disciples to abandon their families. "If any man come to me and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
Can you give us the source?
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-Teaches sado-masochism. God incarnated himself as a man; Jesus, in order that he should be tortured and executed in atonement for the hereditary sin of Adam.
Oh, please. Sado-masochism? it's just ridiculous 
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-Jesus wanted to be betrayed and then murdered in order to redeem us, why take it out on Judas and the jews? As is revealed in the long lost Gospel of Judas, the case is made that Jesus asked Judas to betray him.
Some had to do it, right? Besides, nobody said Judas was damned for what he have done. If God gave him such role, it would be pointless to torture him for the inevitable.
Judas didn't feel pity, and he eventually hanged himself instead of regretting. If he can be bashed, it's for that, not for the betrayal itself imo.
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-If god wanted to forgive our sins, why get himself tortured in order to persecute the jews?
It is a symbol of God being able to suffer like a mortal (in the worst way). That's why you can never say "he's a God, he never suffered". And if you suffer, you know even God did suffer. It makes the religion fair, my friend, something you easily missed.
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-If the Old Testament is symbolic, then Jesus had himself tortured and executed in a vicarious punishment for a symbolic sin committed by a nonexistent individual.
The nonexisting individual represented entire humanity.
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-In Revelations, the number of those 'sealed' is limited to 144,000; 12000 from each of the 12 tribes of jews. These people can only be sealed if they "did not defile themselves with women", which means that they cannot be women.
Interesting point.
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-One of the lost gospels uncovered 6 years ago, claims that the god of the old testament is a ghastly emanation from sick minds, and hat Judas claimed that Jesus was from the immortal realm of Barbelo (a heavenly desinatin beyond the stars), and that Jesus is an avatar of Seth, the third son of Adam. Regognizing that Judas is at least a minor adept of this cult, Jesus takes him to one side and awards him the special mission of helping him shed his fleshly form and thus return heavenward. He also promises to show him the stars that will enable Judas to follow on.
Sounds alot like Scientology to me.
Interesting too, although I've thought about something different after reading some of the lost gospels. They are not contradictory.
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-Jesus makes large claims for his heavenly father but never mentions that his mother is or was a virgin, and is repeatedly very rude to her when she makes an appearance to ask how he is getting on.
Mary wasn't his real mother, mind you. He mentions that his mother is the "whole humanity".
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-Luke refers to the "parents of Jesus" as only Joseph and Mary
so what?
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-Mary had four other sons, including another called Jesus, in the gospel according to James. How did she go on producing children, by the man Joseph who only exists in reported speech?
Because he isn't an important figure, I think. And he could have had 43032705 siblings, does that change anything and/or is contradictory? No.
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-In Matthew 15:21-28 we read the contempt for a canaanite woman who asked for help, saying he would not waste his energy on a non-jew
Have to take a closer look at this one.
EDIT: read that part, well he said that he was sent only to Jews indeed, but when he saw her faith, he did what she asked. What's wrong with that?
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-Many stories exist where none but Jesus and the person he is talking to are around. Who writes the stories?
And who said Jesus didn't tell his minions about those things? What's the problem with that? I don't see any contradiction here either.
In other words, these things you've mentioned aren't something to make me consider becoming an atheist. There are some minor accuracy problems considering years or places, yes, but that does not annoy me aswell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted August 06, 2007 01:21 PM |
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-Jesus teaches his disciples to abandon their families. "If any man come to me and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
Can you give us the source?
Luke 14:26
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Some had to do it, right? Besides, nobody said Judas was damned for what he have done. If God gave him such role, it would be pointless to torture him for the inevitable.
Judas didn't feel pity, and he eventually hanged himself instead of regretting. If he can be bashed, it's for that, not for the betrayal itself imo.
Judas is condemned in stories, hymns, paintings and pretty much all of Christian dogma for his betrayal.
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-If god wanted to forgive our sins, why get himself tortured in order to persecute the jews?
It is a symbol of God being able to suffer like a mortal (in the worst way). That's why you can never say "he's a God, he never suffered". And if you suffer, you know even God did suffer. It makes the religion fair, my friend, something you easily missed.
Sure, but he could have done it in any way without persecuting an entire people.
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-Luke refers to the "parents of Jesus" as only Joseph and Mary
so what?
According to the story, Joseph is definately not his father, and as you said yourself, Mary isn't his mother.
So the story says.
But this is a slip-up on Luke's behalf contradicting this.
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And who said Jesus didn't tell his minions about those things? What's the problem with that? I don't see any contradiction here either.
Perhaps he did. Then these are hardly an account of what happened, or a transcript of what was said at all.
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In other words, these things you've mentioned aren't something to make me consider becoming an atheist. There are some minor accuracy problems considering years or places, yes, but that does not annoy me aswell.
I'm not trying to, it's just pointing out that the new testament is immoral and a slapdash novel of hearsay and idealistic fables that fit together as much as a collection of short stories stuck in a scrapbook.
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John says to live above hell.
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