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Thread: Spell Availability - A Comparison | This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 08, 2007 12:54 AM |
bonus applied. |
Edited by Elvin at 17:04, 27 Jan 2009.
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Spell Availability - A Comparison
I used to think that the available spells in your mage guild can determine a game. Some are seemingly a lot better than others and there are a few that are simply useless in some situations but I have come to learn that for all its randomness things are not so bad. Some spells will indeed break your game but the bottomline is that while you may prefer some specific spells their alternatives will still help you in another way.
Also I can't help but notice that with the overall spell selection a magic faction may become weaker or much more powerful than a might faction in earlygame. But then it's a bit negligible as even the magic faction can depend on its units' might even if they will have lesser stats - It's after a point that bad available spells can spell your doom as might will wash over you, especially if some units are upgraded and have speed 8. Dungeon or haven can potentially kill stacks outright if their charging units play first and you cannot hope to raise your units that fast either or hope that your hero will play first.
The point is how to use your spells effectively so as not to get to this point but also see that with different spells you have different possibilities and not just in the 'final battle'.
A final note is that the potential with the 'weaker' spells may be harder to realize but still there nevertheless.
What's new: New spells as well as widely available perks namely: Secrets of destruction, ignite, fire resistance, cold death. Firewall went to destructive.
DESTRUCTIVE
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One example is stone spikes. You'll probably hate to see it in your guild but with the addition of slippers it has a lot more potential and is an aoe that cannot be mirrored against wizard skirmishes. There is a lower probability of mirroring early but sometimes wizards can reach obscene levels within little time.
When you fight ranged units with little army they are split in 4 stacks and the spikes can target 2 of them Also two stone spikes early do a better job than 3-4 arrows, saving both time and mana.
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Which you will hate getting depends on your class. Necros planning on cold death, might types and wizards would rather get icebolt mostly as it's more effective with low spellpower. Unless you are a warlock or necromancer without destructive chances are your eldritch arrow will deal more damage so it's a waste of a spell. I guess lightning will help vs water elementals but there are more lightning immunities...Gargoyles, air elementals, thanes.
Let's face it, unless you have good spellpower lightning bolt sucks.
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Ignite's newfound availability makes me prefer fire spells mostly, at least when playing high spellpower classes. Cold death is good but then secrets of destruction AND ignite feel a better choice. Unless you have to deal with phoenixes and fortress's dragons where you will wish you had freezing with cold death Of course successful warlocks can still pull it off, invisibility with ignite does wonders.
If I had to choose between the fire spells I prefer fireball for two reasons: You are not afraid that the neutrals will not be on a horizontal line and the instant higher damage with better area can serve better in a final fight than overtime damage. Still firewall damages at a faster rate so if you have invisible units you can enjoy it just as well if not more Either spell is great.
Where ice spells are concerned you will prefer them with low spellpower or imbue ballista Either way both ice and fire spells have damage boosting artifacts and good masteries.
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There used to be more of a gap between the power of meteor shower and chain lightning but things changed a bit with 1.3. Currently a high spellpower hero can deal more damage to one stack than meteor, plus stun and affect units that are away from each other - often the case with inferno's mobile units. That should help finishing off a stack or other weak ones out of meteor's range but that's situational.
Meteor is more useful overall but elemental arties and weeks can change things.
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This is a comparison that many would have thought no contest. However armageddon's value is now getting more credit and there are armageddon strategies to suit one's needs. I don't think I need to address implosion's destructive potential but armageddon can be just as deadly and without necessarily risking a loss. For one it has the extra irresistible meteor damage in the center of the battlefield and it is easy to lure opponent's units there. Secondly it is a means of defeating an enemy main something most spells cannot easily do. Even if in the process both heroes lose you can rehire your hero - your opponent can't. Warlock's luck and the fire artie can make sure both will go down It can nullify some factions' high damage output as sylvan and survive because blackies will take half damage.
For factions other than dungeon we have academy that can keep casting it with resistance mini arties and some naturally resistant units and fortress that has immunity in tier 7 and magic proof in tier 5. These could not be as effective with implosion alone so let's say that it has its uses
Now meet an empowered ignited armageddon
Sorry I forgot deep freeze Also a very useful spell but especially so in lategame. Damage is not as high as implosion's but it makes units very vulnerable to physical attacks so it can be devastating. If used with freezing mastery it is even better, giving you the chance to attack first. With warlocks you hardly care if the opponent resists because the spell's purpose is not instant damage.
LIGHT
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Mass haste is better imo. It counters mass slow that is a killer and allows you to have the initiative after the first round. Which is its only disadvantage, it does not do much in the first round as divine strength. A divine strength spell in the right unit can be a lot more important than haste with marksmen in close range and the inferno units as a good example On the other hand an angel would be unaffected but there are few units with fixed damage output.
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Endurance and cleansing are totally different spells that excel in different circumstances. Mass cleansing is the ultimate dark counter but also combats nasty enemy buffs as arcane armour/deflect missile and mass endurance offers great protection from physical attacks. Cleansing might be more important as a failsafe but may not pay off and in the case of wizards extra defense is more useful.
As for regeneration it is an amazing creeping spell that relies on no masteries, if you get it you will have no regrets. I personally consider it one of the best lvl 2 spells. It's still useful late but its main function is preserving your units and easier creeping until that time.
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Another situation of hard to compare spells. More attack or ranged protection? I would probably want deflect missile versus sylvan, necro or a Dougal abuser that trains peasants but it also depends what faction you control. A +60% to your army's damage is hard to resist in any case
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Teleportation can block enemy shooters, free yours or save you in sieges while magical immunity is the perfect counter for puppet master and crazy warlocks. I'd hope to get the former versus might factions and especially with haven that can exploit the marksmen piercing shot and the large paladin stacks that have limited maneuverability.
Divine vengeance does not count, it's severely broken Packs an outrageous amount of damage and can score one hit kills.
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In the meantime word of light has been buffed nicely and the orcs have been introduced. Yet another race it affects. I still prefer resurrection but at times the word can pay off.
DARK
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From experience mass slow is a game breaker, mass weakness isn't. It does have an amazing effect on inferno units due to the large gap between min-max damage and necro that relies in numbers can cannot usually counter it. Mass slow is especially good in the hands of a demon lord because they can drain enemy mana with the familiars and that can leave an opponent helpless. In creeping both are good, slow versus units you hope to prevent getting a second turn before you reduce their numbers and weakness against ranged units whose attack you cannot avoid.
Sorrow somehow feels like another obstacle in getting mass slow but it's undeniably useful. On more than one occasions I have turned an opponent's key unit into a weakling. Minus 4 to both morale and luck is fun, bad thing is that the cap has been raised to 10 so in long games it may have minimal effect.
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While vulnerability can be cast multiple times I have always favoured decay which shines early on. However decay is not as useful in lategame and vulnerability can seriously weaken high defense opponents, especially in conjunction with academy's defense reducing mini arties. Or with mark of the wizard that can reduce enemy defense by 12 per casting
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If you wish to completely nullify enemy ranged fire and gain mass no retaliation confusion is your best friend However as good as that sounds suffering seriously weakens enemy's attack strength and can strip away righteous might. I'd get prefer the latter against a melee army that is about to charge me but confusion is generally better both in battle and creeping.
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As reflected in the cost frenzy is considered better. It can turn the opponent's might against him or on your allies to gain a boost when your allies are away. Still it has some disadvantages.
It lasts only 2 rounds on expert and the opponent can place near a weak unit in which case it was of little use. While the opponent cannot control it he can still teleport(assault) it in your midst and attack you before you understood what happened. And there's the case where ranged creeps come in one stack where frenzy would be suicide. In these cases blind can be superior.
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With curse of the Netherworld buffed and vampirism added the last level of dark seems now balanced. Of course cotn is better for early and vampirism, puppet for late. Vampirism can help you deal with undead/infernal units that the other two can't though against infernal I'd prefer puppet Should be mentioned that orcs are affected by cotn just as by word of light.
SUMMONING
Here we come to the actual reason I made this thread. The other schools are balanced in spell availability for the most part yet summoning is still considered the worst for this reason. I agree to an extent but things are not as bad as they look at first glance. Summoning can give the potential of outperforming might or being outperformed yet it can give a good creeping advantage to be prepared for the worst.
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If someone tells you there is no contest he is right. Fire trap can help you deal with several dragons, lots of imperial griffins, even lots of spectral dragons as I found out recently in week 2. Fist of wrath cannot even come close. And it works with imbue arrow that can help a bit early sylvan tackle large units
But there have been times where I have felt relieved to have the fist. Because the fist cannot be affected by resistance or immunity and can be used with mark of the wizard. This way it is an efficient golem, elemental, gargoyle, black dragon killer. You cannot usually take on a horde of steel golems without it week 1, as you cannot take down fast a destructive wizard that has golems and obsidian gargoyles - not with fire trap anyway.
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An interesting comparison. Raise dead can be very effective bringing back to life undead or vampiric units. Then there is its lategame significance where it can help you survive whether you have undead or not. Now if you win with raised units you keep a few of them on your army and the hero is not sent in the tavern. Can be very effective in the hands of a necromancer or warlock that can bring back excessive amounts of hp as compensation for the hp reduction.
Wasp swarm can totally neutralize a unit no matter how big it is, especially with mark of the wizard though totally crappy with no mastery. Good for creeping.
Arcane crystal is one of my favourite spells. It can both block shooters/large units and deal good splash damage so it's one of the best spells you can get early. Useful all around.
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Earthquake has thankfully been strengthened but it's still not useful most of the time. Good thing is it can counter blade barrier and arcane crystal something your opponent is not likely to expect. Also less chance to get it.
Blade Barrier can be just as useful as phantom forces, it's a great protective spell. I might lean a bit towards phantom but either is good.
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What do you know, firewall got kicked out and we got summon hive. A good but mana intensive spell that can disrupt the flow of the game over time. Things are mostly the same:
Summon elementals will rarely be used against a might faction and never in endgame. The elementals take a long time to appear and there is the chance you will get earth elementals that is a wasted turn. Unless you face slow units in creeping. Which is the only place where it can save your hide along with sieges. if you summon fire or water elementals you have a way to attack your opponent and since you siege him he's probably not strong enough to come and get you. It is a spell for slow battles and may get you out of it. if you get the elemental waistband early with expert summoning and rush the opponent the game can be yours just like that.
BUT now you can get fire warriors that make it useful. But since you learn it from the perk anyway you'll probably curse your luck if it appears in the guild.
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Two so different spells. The phoenix can make for top creeping and take on whole armies yet is vulnerable to cold death and a couple oflethal unit abilities. It is unstoppable until midgame and can be buffed further. Lategame however it is of less to no use.
On the other hand arcane armour is best used later and in the hands of a wizard(motw) or necromancer with large numbers of units can be very formidable. Not because all attacks will deal half damage but because direct spells are affected likewise. It is a great protection against a destructive caster and may win you the game for that. No creeping value however.
And that's what is wrong with summoning. While its spells can have good use in different situations, a combination of fist, raise dead, earthquake, summon elementals and arcane armour make for the poorest match of all schools because they do not often have efficient use. That's why a faction that uses summoning is better off having a second backup school and quite conveniently academy and necropolis can depend on magic so as to warrant a second school. Only dungeon seems to fare well on destructive alone from those with summoning as a primary type.
Fast Forward to Tribes:
Things have slightly changed. Certain spells boosted, others added so that the worse spells will not appear as frequently. While earthquake and elementals could be better the school's availability has been satisfyingly tweaked. The only bad situation I can think of is dealing with lava dragons when you don't have conjure phoenix though firetrap, fire warriorrs, blade barrier and crystal can help.
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ismail222
Known Hero
The Cataclysm
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posted August 08, 2007 01:44 AM |
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Very very intersting thread elvin,let's see...
I will just comment on lightning bolt and chain lightning since am not really in the mood to read the whole thing so i only read destructive spells,anyways...
Lightning bolt and chain lightning's major set backs are that the titan's trident takes up the slot to put the weapon,so i guess that it's useful only at early game but at late,u won't possibly choose the trident over the staff of the netherworld,or the staff of sar isuss,and that's really my most favourite thing about the emrald slippers that they take the slot of putting ur boots,which is mostly useless (for dungeon atleast) nevertheless...one of meteor shower's biggest set backs are that it doesn't have a mastery in destrutive while it's the most useful spell for dungeon but it is still better than chain lightning..
and about lightning bolt,ice bolt with ice mastery is alot more useful than the lightning bolt since the stunning effect sometimes need for u to wait for the next turn to take it's effect...
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Sanyu
Known Hero
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posted August 08, 2007 05:13 AM |
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Nice thread! I'm re-reading the summoning magic portion again and again, in hope of finding a use for summoning magic...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 08, 2007 07:47 AM |
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@ismail222
Thanks, I had forgotten to mention the role of artifacts due to the slot they take
And they definitely have a use sanyu they just aren't straightforward or have direct results as the other magic types. The bottomline is that you also need some army and timing to win, unless you have phoenix
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 08, 2007 09:49 AM |
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Nice spell comparison indeed. I'm waiting for the TotE spells it will certainly be nice to have new Summon spells in the game!
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted August 08, 2007 10:39 AM |
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When I read about those dark magic, i look at one spell: frenzy and thought - what would an orc hero do with no Supress dark magic, if his foe had expert dark magic and though frenzy would be fun on Cyclops? ...
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 08, 2007 10:47 AM |
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@emilsn: That's the same thing whit Devils no counter. And we don't know yet how good those anti-magic skills of barberians are..
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Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted August 08, 2007 11:51 AM |
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Quote: And that's what is wrong with summoning. While its spells can have good use in different situation a combination of fist, raise dead, earthquake, summon elementals and arcane armour make for the poorest match of all schools because they do not have often efficient use.
Raise dead heals a phoenix, so it can be good.
Elementals > firewall any day. Both spells are good but, for a necromancer there is really no contest. Elementals generete mana with MotN and Firewall just doesn't. Anyway, firewall is weaker than elementals vs both AI and a human.
Elementals are a weaker version of a phoenix but there can be only 1.
Firewall is a weaker version of a fire trap but there can be many mines.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 08, 2007 12:50 PM |
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I was talking more about lategame. If you are attacked by a knight carrying numerous paladins, griffins and angels by the time the elementals act you will be butchered. And of course the elementals will die in an attack or two. First of all your might stats will not be good enough to deal damage fast enough and the opponent will likely have leadership and offensive perks that can wear you down pretty fast.
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dschingi
Famous Hero
the guy with the dragon golem
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posted August 08, 2007 01:52 PM |
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I consider the discrepancy (in terms of usefulness) between some of the spells the most annoying feature of Heroes 5.
I guess I don't have to elaborate how game-breaking Resurrection, Puppet Master and Phoenix can be. Mage Vault and Utopia can compensate a bit, but that still doesn't justify how weak some spells are compared to others of the same level.
Just think about a Sylvan game where you have Res and one where you have Word of Light and there is no Vault or Utopia. With Res you advance very fast since you can take much bigger creeps without worrying about losses. Word of Light gets you nothing.
Anyway, nice post elvin
about Frenzy:
Quote: It lasts only 2 rounds
haha yeah, what about 10 rounds? There are many cases that you just can't move your frenzied unit somewhere else. And if the caster targets the creature acting next you can't do anything at all. Oh and the damage increase...
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Rakacha
Hired Hero
Selfproclaimed Dragonlord
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posted August 08, 2007 04:50 PM |
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Nice post...it acutally made me consider use the dark and light magic schools more ofen, instead of just destructive
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 08, 2007 05:50 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 17:53, 08 Aug 2007.
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The idea of a knight using destructive pops to mind Yes all magic types have something to offer but their potential depends more on the hero(spellpower, knowledge, specific abilities from each skill) and the artifacts he gets. Academy and dungeon may also buy artifacts from their town that boost their magic stats even if the map is poor. That promotes the use of destructive and summoning.
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ismail222
Known Hero
The Cataclysm
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posted August 08, 2007 07:39 PM |
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I've read the rest of the destruvtive spells and am ready to comment on the others,anyways...
Stone Spikes VS. Edlritch Arrow
There's nothing to say really,stone spikes makes edlritch arrow toatly useless it's a lvl 1 AOE,and once again i only play dungeon so i always have the slippers so edlritch arrow isn't even compares to stone spikes IMO..
and i've already commented on Ice bolt and lightning bolt so i won't about that
About circle of winter and fireball,for me i prefer Circle of winter since the ice mastery is alot better than the fire mastery (for dungeon atleast) but at late game i have to go with fireball since i usually get pendant of mastery at late games and the phoenix feather cape i usually take but sometimes i trade with cloak of death's shadow so in late game it's pretty much fireball cause i also sometimes dun trade the cape with cloak of death's shadow (when i use armageddon)
I've already commented on chain lightning and meteor shower so....
The toghest comparsion armageddon and implosion are really tough to choose just one so i usually choose both,but in a late game VS haven i'd have to go with armageddon but in another late game when i have alot of intiative boosters and the staff of the netherworld i prefer to blow up the strong stacks with implosion one by one but most of the time i choose Implosion...
And...am done
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Ppl griveing,Ppl
Deceving,Ppl lying,Ppl dying
One Word : Life
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted August 08, 2007 08:05 PM |
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Quote: I was talking more about lategame. If you are attacked by a knight carrying numerous paladins, griffins and angels by the time the elementals act you will be butchered.
What is so better about firewall then? Late game, even a phoenix is weak. The only good late game summoning spell is phantom forces. And playing maps where haven can get 17 pala per week + angels is pointless anyway. Haven must play very badly or be very unlucky to lose.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 08, 2007 08:09 PM |
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I am more an eldritch arrow and fireball guy, main reason the damage. Eldritch arrow is an earlygame spell and I prefer it to tackle ranged units as archers and hunters. It's more of a failsafe for more efficient creeping as these are what give me trouble. Circle is pretty good but the freezing effect is divided among the targets.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 09, 2007 12:58 AM |
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I think this is a nice thread, but there's one thing in particular that I think you did not mention. This particularly holds importance in the discussion of some Destructive spells, more specifically Lightning vs. Ice Bolt and Fireball vs. Circle Of Winter:
Most of the spells in the current game are pretty useless when you are not profficient in their respective schools. This is particularly the case for Light / Dark Magic spells, where no-mastery bonuses are often negligable.
This is not quite the case for Destructive Spells, and particularly not for the Ice Spells. In contrary to the Lightning / Fire Spells, where Spell Power multiplier for damage is very dependant on mastery (11 x Power with no mastery, 20 x Power with expert, almost a doubling!), for Ice Spells, the multiplier is constant, and only the bonus damage changes. Also, the no-mastery multiplier for Ice Spells is higher than for the Air/Fire Spells. Therefore, if you play a hero class with little affinity for Destructive Magic, or choose a none-destructive build, you will generally hope for the Water Spells in your guild, because they will provide a higher damage multiplier and higher bonus damage than the equivalent Fire/Air spells, thus giving much better damage output.
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What will happen now?
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MagniBronzeb...
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 09, 2007 03:19 AM |
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For those who complain about useless spell, the situation is MUCH better than in heroes 3, where nearly half of the spells were totally useless. But it is also true that heroes 5 features much less spells, thus there is more chance you will get a spell you want.
First of all, thanks Elvin to create this thread, so I can make some questions (for some reason I cannot create new threads)
I would ask some things about these spells:
1. Confusion (not mastered): It says that HALF of the units will forget to use ranged attack, spellcasting, retaliation,... But it seems all units are able to use ranged attack. Whats the deal with this? (I know it is the same as in heroes 3, but I never understood that even there)
2. Anti Magic: Will that Warlock's ability negate the resistance also against stacks with this buff. This would probably make this spell useless (you need this spell right against them).
3. Weakness and Divine Strength: Did they replace Bless and Curse. If so, why units will not do fixed damage?
4. Haste and Slow: Now that these two spells affect initiative rather than speed, is now there any way to fasten some units (those damn squires do not move anywhere).
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted August 09, 2007 05:30 AM |
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Quote:
2. Anti Magic: Will that Warlock's ability negate the resistance also against stacks with this buff. This would probably make this spell useless (you need this spell right against them).
It does work against them, but the level of warlock's irresistible magic will determine how much damge is actually done. So for example in a test I did, I used a warlock with expert irresistible magic whose ice bolt was supposed to do 450 damage. Against magic immunity it did roughly 220 damage.
Quote:
3. Weakness and Divine Strength: Did they replace Bless and Curse. If so, why units will not do fixed damage?
yep, right click on the unit to see it's damage range. Rough example...if a unit had a damage range of 8-15, divine strength would make it 13-15, weakness would make it 3-15.
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4. Haste and Slow: Now that these two spells affect initiative rather than speed, is now there any way to fasten some units (those damn squires do not move anywhere).
The only way to improve speed is through hero abilities and the boots of speed.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 09, 2007 09:28 AM |
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Quote: 1. Confusion (not mastered): It says that HALF of the units will forget to use ranged attack, spellcasting, retaliation,... But it seems all units are able to use ranged attack. Whats the deal with this? (I know it is the same as in heroes 3, but I never understood that even there)
If you cast Confusion on stack, it should do only half damage without mastery. Of course, it will look as if the whole stack attacks, but have you checked the numbers to see whether it actually did work?
Quote: 3. Weakness and Divine Strength: Did they replace Bless and Curse. If so, why units will not do fixed damage?
Actually, Phoenix-Reborn's example is not quite precise. If a unit does 8-16 damage, Divine Strength w/o mastery will change this to 12-16 damage (reduce damage gap by 50 % in positive direction), whereas Weakness w/o mastery will change it to 8-12 damage (reduce damage gap by 50 % in negative direction). With Expert mastery, the two spells will yield damage of 16-16 and 8-8, respectively (reduce damage gap by 100 %.
Quote: 4. Haste and Slow: Now that these two spells affect initiative rather than speed, is now there any way to fasten some units (those damn squires do not move anywhere).
Sadly, Nival have refuced to make traditional Haste and Slow spells that affect speed. Their argument is that it would render a Zombie useless if you reduced his speed. I would like to make them explain what use I have of the Zombie with reduced Initiative ...
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What will happen now?
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 09, 2007 09:56 AM |
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Summoning magic is very good in rushes. It has only 2 true lategame spells - phantom forces and arcane armor (this one can still can be used in rushes efectively, did it myself 2nd week rush^^). When i started playing homm i didnt like thew school , i thought its very crappy, but now i know it has many uses that other schools cant do (in fast games)
Of course masters (skills) are poorly made and some spells arent too potent(earthquake, fire wall) but it nevertheless is a very good school, especially on small maps.
Other schools have crappy spells too (word of light and curse of netherworlds for instance). Only reason people like dark/light more is that you can clearly see their power in the late game final combat (everybody can get to that point). To use summoning effectively against opponent you need to play proper map and really be fast in creeping and good in rushing generally(not everybody can do that properly) . Phoenix rushes or raise dead/summon elemental or arcane armor give huge advantage in quick games.
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