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| Thread: [MOD TotE] H5/HoF Campaigns for ToE |  This thread is pages long: 1 ... 5 6 7 8 9 ... 10 20 21 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 05, 2007 03:57 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 16:09, 05 Dec 2007.
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Several versions threatens possible unification, without unification we can't make a regular practice of the most useful user fixes for Heroes.
The Xazardous Mods... 
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None of your rights or interests is harmed if there's an additional .exe, so no reason for reproaching.
Not necessarily. Just take Borsook's example and consider that Nival may release a second TotE patch. Or someone comes along and buys TotE in a shop. They load it up and try to play Multiplayer. Then they discover that everyone's using a completely different .exe and that they have to go off and download some unofficial mod which doesn't even affect their multiplayer game.
Ain't gonna happen.
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You said you were concerned about load time and Alt+Tab doesn't work for everybody, so having an ingame skill wheel must be a really smart game addition in your opinion
If only I used the Skill Wheel at all. But your point is noted.
Anyway, those are the Xazardous Mods if I'm not mistaken. The problem: again, while most of them are great and I agree they should be in the game, some people are bound not to want to use them (the build screen change, portrait backgrounds and battlefield mods are almost purely aestethical) and, as you said with the analogy of putting a moustache on the Mona Lisa, there are people who will not want us messing around with Nival's graphics. Plus, if Nival disagrees with us and patches the game again or something, we have to go off and fix whatever they've done. I understand that the mods do nothing but improve the game, though not everyone will agree.
Not to mention that they are totally outside the scope of this mod, which is intended to include old content, not new stuff.
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 04:10 PM |
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Edited by tobagua at 16:17, 05 Dec 2007.
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(the build screen change, portrait backgrounds and battlefield mods are almost purely aestethical)
I can't agree with you on this matter. The build screen change only adds the frames and the arrows, doing nothing to the graphics style. The improved battlefield interface consists purely from original Nival graphical elements, the only thing sffected by the changes is the arrangement of the elements, allowing for a lot more visibility. The skill wheel and necromancer tab buttons are so small that they won't stand in the way of those who don't want to use them. Some people like me don't use the Kingdom Overview tab at all, is this a valid reason to cut it from the game? I think no. None of the improvements takes any extra screen space, none of them messes with aesthetics (because all of them fanatically follow the original Nival graphics style, even the Return button on the skill wheel screen), the only thing that changes (for the better of course) is the ergonomics, simple as that. There are a number of mods that do indeed change the way the interface works even further, but none of them got on my list right because of the aesthetical concerns (different doesn't necessarily mean better, but better is often different - very slightly in our case, which is even better than just better).
So in a nutshell, if you don't use something, it's not a reason to keep others from using it as long as it doesn't take any extra screen space or change existing rules. I myself play multiplayer once in a blue moon but I'm very concerned about the fact that the mod must be compatible with vanilla multiplayer, since I think that everybody's interests are equal and we must cater to the opinion of the majority, at the same time not infringing the interests of the minorities, and the key word in this case is compatibility. So I mainly concentrate on compatibility, being part of a minority myself (devoted single players with little interest or opportunity for multiplayer game; in my case it's the lack of time and opportunity)
BTW, I don't see what happened to portrait backgrounds but if there's something wrong it's not these particular mods but someting additional.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 05, 2007 04:17 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 16:18, 05 Dec 2007.
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So in a nutshell, if you don't use something, it's not a reason to keep others from using it as long as it doesn't take any extra screen space or change existing rules.
Irrelevant point, there are also interface changes as well as aesthetical ones which some are not going to go for, and what's more they're unofficial. I could argue: if you don't use the old Nival versions, it's not a reason to keep others from using it as long as it doesn't affect the gameplay change existing rules.
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BTW, I don't see what happened to portrait backgrounds but if there's something wrong it's not these particular mods but someting additional.
It is those particular mods. The Xazardous Mods contain the change to the creature and hero portrait backgrounds which you're showing us. Landscape backgrounds are added. See there, in the Initiative Bar of the third screen where you say
"3. The third fix saves a lot of screen space in the battle mode. Quite self-explaining:"
...see if you can spot anything new there.
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 04:22 PM |
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Edited by tobagua at 16:25, 05 Dec 2007.
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What the hell Xazardous is? The mods were made by a Russian by the nickname of Azard (he's finely versed in Russian, so his descent is quite obvious) and the listed ones have nothing to do with the backrounds... if they have to, this can easily be rolled back. I'm beginning to think that you're contradicting me just because of the desire to hold grounds - how on earth more screen space in the battle mode can be uncomfortable? Are any buttons changed? Are any functions changed? Is any information deleted from the screen? Is there any annoying additional and unnecessary info shown on the screen? Looks like that if you don't like something, then you think nobody likes it. Life is all about compromises, so I suggest making a poll when the mod release date approaches closer.
Well, I can always release a separate package of my own (based on me-Sfidanza cooperation) and I'm sure it will beat the guts out of the purely modular version. But caring for the larger audiences, I'd like to come on terms with Sfidanza about releasing a single version only that will leave everyone satisfied, and including some of Azard's mods may be part of it - it's a good chance for further unification.
E.g. a novice can both use the skill wheel ingame and find some 5,000 potential opponents online who use the same mod. Simple as that. Yes, I do mean making an unofficial patch rather than just a mod. The motto is maximum compatibility and ergonomics at the price of minimum change.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted December 05, 2007 04:25 PM |
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Just to throw in my 2cps: I don't like the building screen as shown in the image a few posts up ahead in this thread, and I am not in favor of the battle field changes either. The Skillwheel and Necro conversion table are nice, though, and affect the interface of the rest of the game only very little (in the form of 2 extra buttons).
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Borsook
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 04:31 PM |
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2 Cepheus:
2 Borsook: if a patch is released, then the whole lot of HoF and HoMM files have to be revised and part of them repackaged, since every HoMM5 patch addresses all the three chapters of the game. That's why I think there's no use releasing the mod prior to the 3.1 patch.
Well, it depends on what the patch changes. It is possible that there won't be that much editing required actually, but definitely the exes would have to be modified. BTW do we have any official word that there will be a 3.1 patch? Personally I think a better move would be to make 2.2 first as HoF is the most neglected now...
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 05, 2007 04:32 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 16:38, 05 Dec 2007.
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Sigh, this is exactly what I've been trying to avoid. Okay, one last reply and then I'll leave you to your own devices... 
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What the hell Xazardous is? The mods were made by a Russian by the nickname of Azard (he's finely versed in Russian, so his descent is quite obvious) and the listed ones have nothing to do with the backrounds... if they have to, this can easily be rolled back.
You have quite clearly not come across this thread.
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I'm beginning to think that you're contradicting me just because of the desire to hold grounds
I am not that pathetic.
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- how on earth more screen space in the battle mode can be uncomfortable?
You have glazed over parts of my post altogether, I explained that I agree with the battlefield mods being included, but not everybody will.
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Are any buttons changed? Are any functions changed? Is any information deleted from the screen? Is there any annoying additional and unnecessary info shown on the screen? Looks like that if you don't like something, then you think nobody likes it.
Do kindly let me know where you're getting this last sentence from. When have I ever said that I don't like the idea? Can't I just point out a few problems?
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Well, I can always release a separate package of my own (based on me-Sfidanza cooperation) and I'm sure it will beat the guts out of the purely modular version.
Sorry. I may have offended you. I simply don't see why we can't use multiple versions, they will not cause anybody any harm.
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 04:34 PM |
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Edited by tobagua at 16:51, 05 Dec 2007.
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Exe editing is done exactly in 9,65 seconds. Even easier than doing a quick revision of the maps and scenarios =) It's more like text editing than hacking, since there only two small edits at obvious places.
2 Cepheus: Pure mistake, you have my apologies for that. My eye slipped off some very important word, so I didn't quite get what you were actually trying to say. I thought you were attacking Azard's works just because of the purity concerns, which is certainly funny since I'm a huge lore nazi myself attacking anything that doesn't fit the game's style (I would attack even the skillwheel if it used fonts other than ingame ones or a close button not in keeping with the rest of the regular interface elements).
Nowadays few people ever play vanilla Homm III SoD, the H3 community is dominated by the tournament edition and to a lesser extent, the WoG mod. I just wanted to start a similar process of unification. It's gonna take years, so I guess until 2010 the majority will stick to vanilla multiplayer, I see no problems for a novice here. Equal concern should be expressed both towards the modular and the vanilla part. And more than one version is a lot of confusion for the novices, however I have no intention of stopping Sfidanza from releasing his variant of the mod... I'm just quoting a few of my reasons for possibly not doing so and designing a compromise solution.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 05, 2007 04:51 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 16:52, 05 Dec 2007.
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@Tobagua - Well I can see where you're coming from now and don't get me wrong, I agree with you (and that the compromise should dominate the other versions, but we'll let Sfidanza decide that). I still think some small modular versions should be released, for the convenience of a minority if nothing else. 
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 05:00 PM |
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Edited by tobagua at 17:41, 05 Dec 2007.
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Of course, but I think that since my plan is all about compatibility and newbie-friendliness (condsider the town menu changes, skill wheel, necro screen), it could be marked as the pompously official one (with lots of propaganda and posters on the walls) recommended for those who want to have maximum comfort at the price of minimum changes. I even had to drop my precious idea about having whole three .exes - indeed, some of the less experienced players might find it confusing when TotE lets play the main campaign along with the user-made ones, scenarios and multiplayer while HoF and HoMM are somehow missing the multiplayer and user campaign options (those are screwed up if we make a dedicated override folder and want to keep the UserMODs override folder independently active in the global sense at the same time, instead of just hijacking UserMODs for dedicated use). Of course, there will be some warnings like "contains improved interface", "skillwheel button added" and "more combat screen space" all with screenshots, so people who feel sick about interface changes can avoid downloading that.
A modular version can be issued simultaneously with a "will ruin your vanilla multiplayer", "doesn't contain any interface improvements" and "sticks to vanilla interface" stickers, which may sound bad or good depending on the person's preferences.
When I was a green noob, the lack of a skillwheel and of a clearer town build tree bugged me to death, let alone the bulky combat interface which wasn't easy to get used to (the latter point wasn't as critical as the two former ones though) I'm sad thinking many people feel like that when they first encounter TotE, since many new players got involved in the HoMM universe right because of the TotE release.
But anyway, I'm not going to fight with any of you because of that. That's a firmly positioned point of view, not a plan to take over the world / bring the light to the humanity / awaken Cthulhu the Great.
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sfidanza
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 06:26 PM |
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Edited by sfidanza at 18:28, 05 Dec 2007.
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So, it seems my call to avoid useless discussion has been... useless.
First of all, the problem is not dedicated .exe vs simple mod, it is a problem of letting choice to players vs uniformization (for better multiplayer compatibility). So let me start here:
I understand that the dream of a unified game for everyone comes from a desire to improve compatibility, but freedom should never be reduced to achieve compatibility, or you slide on the path of control and uniformity, instead of freedom and creativity. Everyone having the same resources is not the ideal society, it is one where individuality is lost, personal choice is negated, in one word: a dictatorship.
The word is obviously too harsh for a game discussion, I agree, but this is the underlying ideology.
Tobagua, you argued that if a mod brings a new feature, even if I don't use it, I should accept it since it is only a small button.
Personally I find that the printed manual is even more useful that the ingame skillwheel (which is a great mod!), but ok, why not. Except that the definition of "clearly useful" is not universal.
That shows when you say "how on earth more screen space in the battle mode can be uncomfortable?". What is that for an argument?? People are allowed to find the modded combat interface well done, but prefer not to use it. Here comes exactly what I started with: control vs loss of freedom.
Back to the matter: the reason for modding is freedom. You cannot take it away, it's completely opposite to the spirit of modding.
The only drawback here is multiplayer compatibility, so let's have a better look at that, and see what other path could be taken:
1. Incompatibility is not automatic: some mods do not break it (at least it used to be like that). I think a first step to support compatibility would be to research and explain which changes break compatibility (GameMechanics/ changes obviously do), and which changes do not.
2. It is very easy to deactivate a mod for the occasional multiplayer game: either remove the file from the folder, or change its extension to .h5uoff or anything. The Mod Manager (by CJD Soft - also russian) even does it for the beginner.
(Obviously, installing ToE a second time for this is silly.)
3. Considering the network instability, multiplayer is best played within a community anyway, where you can plan your games, maybe use Hamachi, and obviously synchronize your mods.
4. The fact that H5 blocks when finding a mod incompatibility is not the desired behavior. It could (should) automatically disable the incompatible mods (with a notification), and go on with the game. If efforts have to be made, this is the ultimate goal I would set.
Note that the easy way would be to systematically ignore mods in multiplayer, which a modified .exe as Tobagua explained can perfectly do. This would be a sort of "H5_safe_for_multi", allowing an easy way back to vanilla H5 (well, ToE) without having to manually deactivate each mod. Writing this, I realize this is closer to your universal solution than a wannabe universal mod. And this, we could release tomorrow (or next week) if we want. 
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My post is long already, and not really on topic, so I'll finish with some quick comments.
- "Xazardous" is the name given by Azard himself to his mods.
http://elrath.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=802
Wonderful work, by the way! 
- Now leaving the multiplayer part aside, I repeat that I'd like to make a dedicated .exe (or two) to address the issue of multiple savegame folders (for those who would like it).
I said it already and I say it again, I like the idea. And I will offer the option (assuming there's no problem with Ubi).
- 3.1 patch seems to been delayed (there must be some other priority kicking in), but it is still planned before 2.2.
- @Borsook ("What resolution are these pictures taken at? Will the menus appear correctly at lower res?")
1280x1024. And yes, they appear correctly at lower res.
Now, let's play with some .exe file...
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 05, 2007 06:42 PM |
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Please let me have an example of a mod that doesn't break compatibility.
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romanov77
Known Hero
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posted December 06, 2007 08:21 AM |
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A question:
Will a new exe file mess up all the graphic tweaks I made to make the game smoother on my machine? (no shadow, the disabled titan alternate special ability...)
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sfidanza
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 06, 2007 12:27 PM |
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Edited by sfidanza at 02:51, 07 Dec 2007.
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@romanov77: no it shouldn't.
The change in the .exe is located in a few bytes (exactly the paths we want to change, nothing else). Your mods or config changes will still work the same.
@Tobagua: I made some tests, and I have good news.
Here's a list of mods that do not break compatibilty (2 players through LAN, one with the mod, the other without - both on 3.0):
- option_fullscreen
- main menu background anim change
- colored_gems
- Unlock campaigns ToE
- All mods in the Xazardous pack!!
Azard's Skillwheel 3.0.2, TownBuild (+HireCreatures and ArcaneForge screens mods), Combat mod, new creature/heroes icons background, new interface menu
... and...
- the H5+HoF campaign mod! subject of this topic
Blocking mods include:
Maps_ToE_UnlockAllHeroes
Treants, Cleric (even if they only change graphics)
I didn't expect it to work so well, I have to say. Otherwise, I would have started by checking all this.
If someone checks with ubi.com, please let us know if it works the same (but I doubt the integrity check depends on the network access type).
Edit:
the NecroButton mod by Protoss does not break multiplayer compatibility either. So all the mods Tobagua listed as essential are not a problem for multiplayer.
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 06, 2007 03:02 PM |
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2 Sfidanza: Blasting news, I'm speechless. So basically none of the existing and future mods described here need merging together, which just settles most of the questions. That was really kind of you to spend time on figuring that out. Now I'm having second thoughts about the necessity of any additional executives, probably drop that in favour of a HoMM3-themed menu with a Zealot vs Arch Demon cutscene, as proposed in my email? The TotE Cyclops bashing around Haven troops as they approach looks kinda less impressive than the original HoMM5 duel, changing that to alt upgrades is gonna be rather symbolical, considering the content of the mod.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted December 06, 2007 07:41 PM |
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probably drop that in favour of a HoMM3-themed menu with a Zealot vs Arch Demon cutscene, as proposed in my email? The TotE Cyclops bashing around Haven troops as they approach looks kinda less impressive than the original HoMM5 duel, changing that to alt upgrades is gonna be rather symbolical, considering the content of the mod.
I agree, so long as it's possible. I can't see why it wouldn't be.
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 06, 2007 08:06 PM |
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Edited by tobagua at 21:05, 06 Dec 2007.
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Some really good news on my side now. I've been fiddling with the executive once again and now I can say for sure that we can design the mod in such a fashion that it will work as follows:
1. The regular (unmodified) executive launches the modified interface with an option to choose between the three chapters.
2. Xazardous mods can be safely added to work with the mod by simply placing them in the UserMODs folder.
3. None of listed above will ruin the multiplayer (thanks Sfidanza for experimenting and clarification)
4. Three additional executives in the \bin folder will launch HoMM5, HoF and TotE right as if they were vanilla standalone versions. This is done through a tiny hack that forces the game to load only a specified list of *.h5u archives instead of them all. We do not need any dedicated campaign folders any longer, everything will be loaded right from the UserMODs folder.
5. However, a stupid limitation is added: if you want a mod to work with both the regular .exe and the modified ones, it must be renamed to .pak and placed into the data folder like it used to be before TotE. Anything named .h5u and placed in the UserMODs folder will only be recognized by the regular executive. Also, the UserCampaign mode will be missing in the modified executives. Sorry for the inconvenience, but it has to be this way if you want the mod files to be simultaneously compatible with the modified .exe's and the regular one without renaming anything manually or adding/deleting extra archives. Anyway, since the modified executives are only meant for single player, mainly offering just the old menu cutscene, campaign screen and a dedicated savegame folder for each chapter respectively, you won't be missing the User Campaign option at all - it will still be available from the regular executive.
6. Each of the dedicated executives will have a save folder of its own, the unmodified executive will use the default save folder as the common save pool for all the three chapters of the game. Any savegame from the dedicated version of a chapter can be safely moved to the common save pool of the unmodified version, but who knows if it breaks campaign.sav... still investigating, but I think that's a very bad idea to do so, but it kinda works now.
7. Any number of TotE executives can be compressed to about 7 Mb (due to the repetitive nature of their content), so having three additional executives in the mod package will only add a mere 7 Mb to its size.
8. If you don't plan using the dedicated executives, you can safely remove them after installing the mod and it will continue to work quite all right with the unmodified executive. Or maybe the modified executives can be an extra download.
/EDIT/ Still unsure, but it kinda looks like the 'stupid rule' can be omitted: the only function you'll be missing with the modified executives is the User Campaign option. Mods will continue working from the UserMODs directory using their normal .h5u extension and apply to the game globally, regardless of the executive used. The additional executives will come as an extra download. Three special override files Menu.HoF.h5u, Menu.HoMM.h5u and Menu.TotE.h5u will come in the package as well. These will override the main mod, changing the improved main menu back to the vanilla looks of HoF, HoMM or TotE respectively, depending on the dedicated executive that you launch. Moreover, anything that gets a .HoF, .HoMM or .TotE prefix before the .h5u extension will only be loaded by the corresponding executive. E.g. you can take away the alternate upgrades of the human army in the dedicated version of HoF because they all went on a rebellion =) Mostly a useless feature, but still...
The main improvement is that you no longer have to choose between two alternate full-size packages of the mod or rename and redistribute a lot of files between different folders manually, which is an important point since Sfidanza supplies old maps as individual archives, so sorting a large bunch of those between two separate folders might be a bit confusing. Let alone the fact that it would render the dedicated version of the mod totally incompatible with the standard version (i.e. the in the old concept you could EITHER use the standard .exe OR the modified ones, not both kinds together). Now both can work together, which only saves time and nerves to the end user.
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Borsook
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 07, 2007 01:04 PM |
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7. Any number of TotE executives can be compressed to about 7 Mb (due to the repetitive nature of their content), so having three additional executives in the mod package will only add a mere 7 Mb to its size.
How about not adding the exes to the install but instead adding a script that would make copies of tote exe and patch them (there are free command line tools used to hex editing that could be used here).
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tobagua
Hired Hero
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posted December 07, 2007 09:32 PM |
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See the /EDIT/ section above. The .exes will be a separate download 100% compatible with the main mod without any need to move or rename anything. Just copy and overwrite.
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Borsook
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 22, 2007 11:29 PM |
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Out of curiosity - could I ask very humbly for some sort of an update on how is the mod progressing?
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