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| Thread: Hydras, Medusa, and Wyverns |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted October 31, 2007 03:49 AM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 03:51, 31 Oct 2007.
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Poll Question:
Hydras, Medusa, and Wyverns
This is something I've been wondering about for quite a while, but I can't make up my mind about it. Particularly about the Hydras and Medusa.
Where do they belong?
Heroes 3 was the first game I played, and as such I've grown custom to Medusa being in Dungeon and Hydra and Wyvern being in a reptile town.
Turns out the Hydra used to be in Dungeon before in H1 and H2, where they actually fitted remarkably well. At least the one thing that has always been consistant about them is their defense concept, they've always remained decently tough to take down.
Wyverns are a new addition since H3, and since I grew used to defense-oriented reptiles being at war with offense-oriented orcs (which I think was rather cool), I have trouble accepting Wyverns in an orc faction.
Last, the medusa, as well a new addition since H3 I believe.
Mythology based, Medusa was one of the three "Gorgons". Rather interesting that Heroes 3 featured both of these as seperate species, both with a deadly gaze ability, and it rather seems to me the creators themselves couldn't decide wether to shove a Medusa unit into Dungeon or Fortress, therefor settling with splitting it into two types, and handing one to each.
Kind of smart, although I would wonder what a H3 Medusa with the Death Stare ability would have been like, probably at tier 5. And if such a unit ever appeared in H6, where the hell would it fit? Dungeon? A Reptile town? Choices, choices...
What I'd like to see a discussion about here is:
- Do Wyverns fit in this orc faction? (Do take note they are their only flyer), or should they have stuck with Rocs?
- Where should Hydras be? Dungeon or a reptile town? And at what tier?
- What would be the best Medusa/gorgon concept? And in what faction?
- Does anyone else think Medusa is related to naga? xD
(Note to Moderators: If this topic is in the wrong section, please move it without beating me into various corners, thank you xD)
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ismail222
Known Hero
The Cataclysm
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posted October 31, 2007 04:35 AM |
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First of all,i think hydras are well fitting in dungeon,just looks and feels right,and wyverns are with orcs in most games i've played so i guess that most ppl believe that wyverns fit with orcs (warcraft is most remarkable-despite the diff orcs color  ) and maybe hydras aren't perfect for dungeon,but i can't think of another unit better for dungeon than hydra or another faction fitting the hydra (reptile faction is just so childesh)(no offence)
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Ppl griveing,Ppl
Deceving,Ppl lying,Ppl dying
One Word : Life
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Rip
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 31, 2007 04:48 AM |
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orcs should have had rocs
hydras could be in both towns, what i mean is that hydra has looked different in every game, yellow in H2 , green in H3 and now purple in H5... there should be a surface hydra and a cave dwelling hydra
medusa in dungeon forever
they seem to have similarities but... if we would ask a DNA lab, maybe, they would shed some light on the situation
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ismail222
Known Hero
The Cataclysm
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posted October 31, 2007 04:54 AM |
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yeah i want medusas back in dungeon again,atleast there'll be a useful shooter,either instead of the matriarchs(gonna miss the spells tho) or instead of the minos and maybe the minos can move to being t6 ^.^
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Ppl griveing,Ppl
Deceving,Ppl lying,Ppl dying
One Word : Life
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted October 31, 2007 05:12 AM |
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Quote:
orcs should have had rocs
Why? If we are talking Might and Magic they inhabit Nighon and would most likely be tamed by the warlocks.
If we are talking heroes they fit very well with the wizard in heroes 2. Maybe you are thinking of the barbarian in heroes 3?
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Rip
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 31, 2007 06:23 AM |
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i was thinking about H3 
i see a eagle like creature fitting better in the barbarian ranks than a lizard like...
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted October 31, 2007 07:38 AM |
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A lot of creatures can be designed to fit into several different faction. The Wyvern in Heroes 3 was green and slimy so it just looked like it belonged to the Fortress faction along with all the other green and slimy lizards. The Wyvern in Heroes 5 is brownish, rough, and mean, so it just looked like it belonged to Stronghold.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 31, 2007 07:57 AM |
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I think this is a very interesting discussion (although it might be more home in the Altar of Wishes), and one we will probably never agree on. The reason for the schism between the fans on this point is probably the fact that Nival introduced a new way - or at least systemized the old way - of making towns by focusing on the concept of core race. This made them diverge significantly from many of the Heroes 3 towns, especially the Dungeon, as we've seen in the other recent threads here.
Personally, I favor the Nival approach, and therefore I would say that to a first approach, I think that all Lizard creatures should be in one town. However, Nival did something pretty clever, because they separated the Lizards into two differents types: Subterranian lizards, which went into the Dungeon town, and aquarian lizards, which might have surfaced in the Naga town, that never was to be. Logically, this approach actually makes pretty much sense - in real world, for instance, we have lots of lizards living in caves in deserts and wastelands.
Thus, I actually think they made a very homogene town in the Heroes 5 Dungeon, because they grouped their core race (Dark Elves) with a range of lizards: Grims, Hydras and Dragons. All of these are specifically depicted as land-living creatures, thus the Hydra now lives in a cavern and has completely lost its swamp connection. The relation of the Minotaurs to this town is questionable, but they made sure to account for this through the history and lore of Ashan.
Had we seen a Naga town, we might have seen the Medusa surface there, probably as one of several manifestations of Naga creatures. Personally, I like that approach. Myself, I would also have put the Wyvern there, probably in a more traditional shape than the weird TotE ones (call me conservative). I don't really see the connection between the Wyverns and the Orcs, and thematically, the Roc or even a Vulture would have fitted perfectly there, because this creature to me is much more believable in a wasteland setting. Maybe that's just me.
So I guess in conclusion, I must say I've come over to the idea of having two groups of lizards in two separate towns: Land living ones in Dungeon, and water living ones in swamp town.
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What will happen now?
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myydraal
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 31, 2007 08:05 AM |
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I loved Rocs in Stronghold. I was never a big fan of Hydras in H1 or H2, so I think they're fine wherever.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 31, 2007 10:16 AM |
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Medusas don't fit H5 dungeon, and didn't fit h3 dungeon. They were horribly weak, too. Aside from no melee penalty, that is.
Whole dungeon of heroes 3 looked like a bunch of monsters put together without any bigger plan - whatever didn't fit elsewhere and was a monster was put in dungeon. Heroes 5 offers organized style of dark elves - I like it very much. It finally lookes like a faction, not as a "put random fantasy monsters in this town" faction.
I miss the swamp town and uncle Tazar, but those days are long gone, and we should move to whats new.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted October 31, 2007 10:19 AM |
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medusas belong with nagas, basilisks, sea(fairie)dragon in a Shalassa worshipping faction
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Duncan
Famous Hero
The Pathfinder
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posted October 31, 2007 10:45 AM |
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Hmm... I had always hoped for the return of a swamp town and thought SBlister line-up in the other thread can be a breakthrough possibly for future H6. But what Alci posted about splitting the lizards to two kinds really never crossed my mind. It's a great idea.
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But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 31, 2007 11:18 AM |
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I think the concept of Vultures would have been nice for the Orc faction, it rather fits the theme. If I would fit Vultures into the Orc faction, I would probably lower them a Tier, which would give Orcs access to a flier slightly earlier. The Scavenge ability from the PaoKai would also fit the Vulture concept. Not to say that the Roc isn't a nice creature - I actually like it very much - but it doesn't really fit with the feel and look of a Stronghold town.
As an addition, they could probably then make the Garbage Pile not only increase Goblin growth, but also Vulture growth .
The old Dungeon from H3 felt warm, mainly due to the use of yellows and browns, traditional earth colors. The current Dungeon is dark brown to purple, with smoky purply haze around it, giving it a rather cold and sinister feel. The rather polished look of most Dark Elf buildings also contrast with the more chaotic feel of the H3 Dungeon town.
Something I've always missed in the H5 Towns is displaying inhabitants in the town overview, where you could see the creatures you could recruit as tiny puppets on the streets (or whatever applies to the respective factions ). It would make towns more lively.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted October 31, 2007 12:19 PM |
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My personal thought is Medusas should be in a swampy town as Nagas: The Medusae are Nagas under a curse or something like that.
Wyverns go with Orcs, I like it that way.
Hydras could go either way.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted October 31, 2007 12:57 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 13:00, 31 Oct 2007.
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Quote:
Medusas don't fit H5 dungeon, and didn't fit h3 dungeon. They were horribly weak, too. Aside from no melee penalty, that is.
Whole dungeon of heroes 3 looked like a bunch of monsters put together without any bigger plan - whatever didn't fit elsewhere and was a monster was put in dungeon. Heroes 5 offers organized style of dark elves - I like it very much. It finally lookes like a faction, not as a "put random fantasy monsters in this town" faction.
I miss the swamp town and uncle Tazar, but those days are long gone, and we should move to whats new.
I'll repeat what I said countless times before The new race-based approach is nice, but it shouln't be a requirement to set up a successfull faction. A lineup doesn't necessarily need to feature 3 - 4 units of the same race in order to work (Take a look at Academy! Only 1 wizard!). I could definately picture only 1 or 2 units of the race in a lineup, and the remainder being tamed beasts. Especially with a Warlock - I somehow always picture those guys to excell in both Destructive magic and Mind Control.
Well at least its comforting to see most people prefer a vulture / roc like eaglething over Wyverns with the orcs. Daystar, why do you think Wyvern fit well with orcs? I personally can't see Wyvern populating a forlorn wasteland (actually I can't see anything populating a forlorn wasteland, but that might just be me..)
Although I also like phoenixReborn's suggestion that Rocs fit well with Wizards, and somehow they do. But I think Academy has a bit too many set positions that it doesn't leave any room for rocs and thunderbirds. Tier 4- Wizard. Tier 5- Genie. Tier 7- Titan. And most probably, Tier 6- 4-armed-no-retal-thing. Rocs as tier 3? Neh.
Seems a lot of people think the Hydra fits best in Dungeon. I'm simply torn, I like it both in Dungeon and a reptile town. No matter where it is, it always adds that little terrorfactor, and in both factions that works. Since they're both a cave dweller and swamp dweller, they really could work in both. But I guess the Warlock is more entitled to it. (Although, irrelevent to this discussion, I dislike the way they gave it a saurian set of feet to actually run on... Does't seem very usefull in a cave... It should drag its butt like it used to xD)
Perhaps I'm just too keen on Hydras being with a reptile town because otherwise it would be too difficult to make up some new interesting units for the town
One thing I haven't yet seen any comments on though: What about a shooter medusa unit with a H3 deathstare ability upon melee attacks? Anyone into that? And if so, in which faction should it be?
@ alc: Thanks for your input! I wasn't too sure wether this thread belonged in Alter of Wishes or Temple of Ashan, but I went with Temple of Ashan since it's more a discussion rather than a concept. Actually, it's a discussion about a concept... Ehe. But I'd guess it belongs in Temple. Even though it's somewhat speculation for H6... I really don't know.
I also noticed the seperation between land/cave dwelling reptiles and swamp-like reptiles. Which on one hand made me think "ok, cool, that works", and on the other made me go "Meh..."
Bah, perhaps I'm just too stuck on H3 and too nostalgic
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted October 31, 2007 01:47 PM |
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obviously. Time to move on, dude 
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted October 31, 2007 02:01 PM |
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Ill start with the wyvern. The normal wyvern fits, the pao kai fits. But that the shamans fet the wyverns some poison things to make them poison and green is okay, but its green! very green! And the orcs, are brown orange! ... That one is a bit out of place, but the history given the wyverns are fine. And the roc... Well.. Academy or Stronghold yes.
First of all the medusa was in HoMM2(maybe also 1) but as a melee unit and neutral, with a mean turn people to stone trick! ... So they have been in this game for ages, but turned to ranged in HoMM3. Yes they were good.. But they never fitted the game i must say. So I can live without them
Hydra. I was a HUGE fan of Fortress in HoMM3. But again, they moved the hydra from dungeon to Fortress there and in HoMM4 back to dungeon. But HoMM4 treated it like dirt! Making it a tier 4 with the blackie! But I like it back in Dungeon... Maybe not good as a cave dweller but still they made it fit the theme great. Nival to me did a good job with the creatures.
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.
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Legendary_Hero
Known Hero
Stronghold Warchief
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posted October 31, 2007 02:01 PM |
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I think the Orc town it's fine as it is.Read the description wyverns live in deserts.Doomforge is right time to move on.
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lfernandes
Hired Hero
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posted October 31, 2007 04:20 PM |
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I'd just like to say sth... I really, really miss the swampy faction from h3... 
Also, IMHO, the Hydra, at least from the greek myth, seem too powerful to be a tier 5 unit... Ok, they do fit well in stategy and also in dungeon, but I think they deserve more...
And Wyverns, IMHO, would fit much better to a Swampy town, rather than to Orcish town...
Considering the base race to be lizardmen or sth like that, and using basilisks, we could have had the mighty beastmasters back!!
I really miss them in h5...
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For the king, for the land
For the mountains!
For the green valleys
where dragons fly
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted October 31, 2007 04:34 PM |
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Quote:
Although I also like phoenixReborn's suggestion that Rocs fit well with Wizards, and somehow they do.
Yep, to elaborate, the wizards are usually involved with clouds, think Titans. In the Might and Magic games (Xeen) you find Rocs up in the clouds...I bet that's what Heroes 2 had in mind putting them in with the wizards.
Game-wise the new Stronghold needed a flyer. That green one doesn't really fit color wise with the rest of them now does it? What would be a good choice for another flyer, I like the Vulture concept, but that name doesn't strike terror into my heart.
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