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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: HOMM3 AI question -- does it cheat in a minor way?
Thread: HOMM3 AI question -- does it cheat in a minor way? This thread is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT»
18w4531g00
18w4531g00

Tavern Dweller
posted February 26, 2013 11:56 PM

AI clearly cheats to me and the best map to explore this is Pestilence lake. I have been stupid enough to have played it probably over 200 times, sometimes its rudiculous. Things I perceive as cheating:
- Morale - if he has a slight chance of winning with several morale boosts, he gets them exactly on the creatures that are critical for this win to happen. I have been into battle where one morale bonus on only one specific stack ends the battle for me and he gets it. Load again - he gets it again, and again and again. If it was diced before the round, this should not happen as it has to be random every load.
- Casts town portal on cursed ground.
- Random maps - he gets the grail on an unexplored map.
- He sees your artifacts and knows your army size and movement points

Funny, but cover of darkness seems to confuse them or they are just programmed to behave like confused. Leave him no castle and one necropolis with CoD available and he will go straight for it

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batoonike
batoonike


Known Hero
posted February 28, 2013 11:16 AM

About the morale in previous post: The random number generator is not reset when loading a saved game. So if you save before battle and load, you always get the same morale pattern for both yourself and the AI.

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18w4531g00
18w4531g00

Tavern Dweller
posted March 13, 2013 09:27 PM

I think you`re wrong. I have reloaded battles in which I follow a different strategy when attacking - I get it random. Also, I have seen the AI get it randomly when playing random maps. I have also noticed that if I play this map on anything starting from Queen and below, its normal. If I go on king difficulty ( what I usually do on this map ) - AI morale and luck bonuses versus mine is absolutely rudiculous.

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Star_King
Star_King


Known Hero
posted March 14, 2013 02:18 AM
Edited by Star_King at 02:19, 14 Mar 2013.

He's not wrong. If either you or your opponent deal damage or cast a spell, a new random seed will be generated and the events will be indeed different. But if you and your opponent don't attack anything and just move around in the same way, it'll be the same every time. Based on my experience.

Also the "AI's luck is better than mine" is just classic human bias. You notice when it works against you the most. If you actually recorded all data you will find they are pretty much the same.

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Quixim
Quixim

Tavern Dweller
posted April 27, 2013 11:51 PM

Well, we know for sure that the AI cheats because they'll lightning bolt and retreat on their ballista's turn when they don't have any artillery skills.
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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted July 07, 2013 08:17 PM

Yep, it did happen to me once with some dendroids. There was only one stack of dendroids and I was playing with castle. I attack them with angels and they rooted the angels and then I attacked them with the champions and they rooted the champions as well

It didn't cause me any trouble but I was like WTF??

Quote:
The first is morale.  I've had times when my hero with +3 or better morale has tried to take a mine and the guardians get morale bonuses almost every attack.  Conversely, I hardly ever get a morale bonus in the same battle.  This really scares me when it's day 2 or 3 in the game and the mine is guarded by eyes, grand elves, or marksmen.  In most cases, I'm too scared to go for the mine and I end up waiting until I'm sure I can get to them and take them out fast.

The second one, I'm not really sure about.  Has anyone ever waited a troop stack in order to use 'junk' troops to hit it first and soak up its retaliation and then had the monster retaliate a SECOND time anyway?  I'm not talkin about griffs, either.  Things like Behms, Hydras, etc?

I'm 60% sure this has happened to me at least twice, and 40% sure that I don't know if it did or not.

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18w4531g00
18w4531g00

Tavern Dweller
posted July 11, 2013 10:08 PM

I did a few tests last weekend, he gets like 2.5 more morale then me and we`re equal in bonus terms. Look at it this way - on minor battles, rudiculous creatures would get morale if they have a chance to kill a few of your core units for this time, say marksmen in week 1. All odds would be against you to reduce your army, then when you battle weaker AI heroes, you`d get morale and luck quite nicely. Then comes the major battle and all your morale and luck is absent while he gets it like crazy. Play Pestilence lake several times to see yourself. Funny, but if I play random or any normal map, it would be ok. Then you go to Impossible maps and it just happens.
BTW - not to drag this into this thread, but in HOMM5 he cheats clearly when he fights creatures - always no losses and often defeats much stronger enemies with a funny bunch of 1-2 level creatures in small numbers ( no losses again ).

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zmudziak22
zmudziak22


Supreme Hero
Heroes 3 Fan
posted July 28, 2013 11:08 AM

I don't think thay know all map. They have extra resources income and have discovered all minimap.

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GrayHero
GrayHero

Tavern Dweller
posted August 27, 2013 02:05 PM

Sub_Zero said:
try pressing the space-button


Quoting a 2007 post in 2013, but thanks if you ever see this! I always wondered how the computer would come out of one of those tunnels, the pop back under without moving a space forward.



Things I've seen.

Like many, I've see the computer leave pandora boxes that have a useless amount of army in there or that is empty. When I know the land's been cleared out, I don't bother with those boxes.

I've seen my computer teamy uncover 2-3 obelisks then literally find the grail, where at times he's just digging in the middle of nowhere.

I've noticed lots of posts about the computer being able to see the entire map. I doubt this, because my computer teamy paid to see the entire map, unless it's programmed this way if it has a human player on their team.
I've also seen them re-scout areas when I use Necro's Cover Of Darkness building.

As it's been said, I noticed the computer being able to know how far I can move. If it knows I can catch him, he'll move onto something and sit there, such as +1 attack, etc, though if it knows I can't catch him, he'll keep on running. I also wonder if computer players get extra movement over the human player on different difficulty settings or in general. I've seen some of their magic users sprint across land without logistics or pathfinding, when I struggled trying to catch him with someone who had expert pathfinding. I got lucky at the tavern 2 weeks later when I sandwiched him with another hero. He also had no movement artifacts either.

As far as starting resource on 200%, does anyone know how much of what they get? I noticed a computer player didn't flag their ore at all, for the entire game, though had a fully built Stronghold base and upgraded it all by week 3 or 4 of the first month...




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CrazyIvan
CrazyIvan

Tavern Dweller
posted September 30, 2013 10:40 PM

Yah yah, we're still playing this game in 2013

Well cheating is nasty, but it's a big word. Like some said already this AI needs certain advantages.

What I do find really annoying is that crappy chance system. I usually refrain from taking Resistance and Luck, simply because it doesn't work properly. Leadership same thing, but that can still be useful when combing different nation troops.

I just did a battle (Heroes 3), like 20 times, against 22 Gogs (2x 11) + 11 Magogs. I had 43 Centaurs, 11 Dwarves, 25 Gnoll Marauders and I was with Mephala level 2 (basic leadership, advanced armorer + badge of courage). So that's a +2 morale bonus and the battle lasted about 3 turns depending morale bonuses.
OMG... The AI totally snowed me over! I had at best only twice an extra turn and at worst no extra turn at all! Even when splitting up de Centaurs into 4 stacks NO EXTRA TURNS !!! The Gogs of course had up to 2 extra turns with just a +1 to morale bonus, grrrr.

Also, because I'm lazy and make mistakes, I reload often. Now I can't be the only one noticing the AI often chancing his choices, especially when it had a bad outcome that turn and you reloaded the autosave. It's really annoying when you want the same thing to happen because you made a mistake right?

What you can do to avoid this is: Press O then R to restart scenario and end the turn right away. Then reload the save you want and the AI will be "reset" and you will get the same outcome again. Some kind of memory thing I guess? It isn't completely full proof but most times it works like a gem.

Yeah, these things can freak me out sometimes... But I love this game man. Heroes forever!

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted September 30, 2013 11:38 PM

18w4531g00 said:
I did a few tests last weekend, he gets like 2.5 more morale then me and we`re equal in bonus terms.


Actually, while I think it's true the computer gets more morale, I don't think it's done intentionally by the developer, hence I'm not sure one can call it cheating. My suspicion is that whoever developed the random seeds for stuff like morale, etc. uses the same start condition for every new pick. This means that the computer might very well be more likely to have an advantage when it comes to morale. On the other hand, the computer is likely to have disadvantages when the order is reversed.

GrayHero said:
Like many, I've see the computer leave pandora boxes that have a useless amount of army in there or that is empty. When I know the land's been cleared out, I don't bother with those boxes.



The computer knows the content. True

GrayHero said:
I've seen my computer teamy uncover 2-3 obelisks then literally find the grail, where at times he's just digging in the middle of nowhere.


Not an unfair advantage. The grail is (always?) just bit from the center of the puzzle map. If you've enough obelisks to find the location (expert earth, view earth, helps), then it's easy to identify the center and find the grail in a few turns.

GrayHero said:
I've noticed lots of posts about the computer being able to see the entire map. I doubt this, because my computer teamy paid to see the entire map, unless it's programmed this way if it has a human player on their team.
I've also seen them re-scout areas when I use Necro's Cover Of Darkness building.


It's a long time ago, but I think I once tested it where the computer did not have access to view air, I followed the computer from the beginning, as expected it didn't get far from its area before I took its only town. Immediately it moved directly to an unoccupied town in an unexplored area. It was repeatable.
Hence it might be programmed to uncover its entire map, but since that might mean it'd move towards unimportant areas in stead of important targets it gets the entire map from the get go. It could also simply be that it's programmed to simulate area exploring. In any case, I think it could have been done better.

GrayHero said:
As it's been said, I noticed the computer being able to know how far I can move. If it knows I can catch him, he'll move onto something and sit there, such as +1 attack, etc, though if it knows I can't catch him, he'll keep on running.

With no speed boosts, the computer can calculate your movement based on your troops, and the terrain. With speed boost from stuff like logistics, items, pathfinding, etc. I'm not sure. In my experience the computer is usually easy to catch.

Btw. pathfinding does not give you extra speed compared to someone without the skill, unless the terrain has penalties.

GrayHero said:
As far as starting resource on 200%, does anyone know how much of what they get? I noticed a computer player didn't flag their ore at all, for the entire game, though had a fully built Stronghold base and upgraded it all by week 3 or 4 of the first month...

I've always assumed it had the same bonus as you do on easy, but I think it's written in the game what it exactly has. In any case, it's the computers stupidity that it doesn't flag an ore mine, there was probably plenty of ore in its region, so it could easily afford to build up its town, but without a steady income, it might not be able to build up other towns for no good reason.

Quote:
Now I can't be the only one noticing the AI often chancing his choices, especially when it had a bad outcome that turn and you reloaded the autosave. It's really annoying when you want the same thing to happen because you made a mistake right?

What you can do to avoid this is: Press O then R to restart scenario and end the turn right away. Then reload the save you want and the AI will be "reset" and you will get the same outcome again. Some kind of memory thing I guess?

I've never seen the AI being able to learn.

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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted October 01, 2013 08:04 AM
Edited by Warmonger at 08:04, 01 Oct 2013.

Quote:
I've noticed lots of posts about the computer being able to see the entire map. I doubt this, because my computer teamy paid to see the entire map

There may be another explanation - AI does not really understand what cartographer does, but knows it's valuable object it should visit, regardless of it's actual effect.
As far as I know, AI visitation algorithm is just based on simple factoring, so AI picks most valuable object nearby, not knowing what it does.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted October 01, 2013 01:26 PM

Warmonger said:
As far as I know, AI visitation algorithm is just based on simple factoring, so AI picks most valuable object nearby, not knowing what it does.

I find it funny, but looked quite good when it was released, so no complains here
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted October 01, 2013 07:39 PM

I suppose it's much easier to simply static prioritize objects based on values on an arbitrary scale. Though in case of something like Cartographer's Hut, it should be easy to condition a visit based on the variable priority level of a full explored map. Especially for a fully explored map the object priority for Cartographer's should be changed to zero. I think they at least did change the priority of churches based on some kind of danger level.
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Living time backwards

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CrazyIvan
CrazyIvan

Tavern Dweller
posted October 02, 2013 08:44 AM

2nd post Going good !

Just did a battle against 2x 15 Lizardman and me with some Elves, Dwarves, Zombies and 9 Pegasi. I had -1 to morale but because of the Pegasi I thought lets do it... You already guessed what happened right? First round the Pegasi froze! 2nd round none froze. 3rd round Pegasi froze again! LOL
Of course I beat them, but with more losses than expected.
Damn AI, I hate you ! sometimes...

Gotta go to work now. Ciaozah !

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crashpc
crashpc

Tavern Dweller
posted October 02, 2013 09:20 AM

LOL guys totally awesome to see us playing HOMAM3 in 2013.

CrazyIvan that is funny, and happens to me "always" with negative luck. This is huge penalty, so I do maximum to get positive morale. Right set of creatures, morale bonuses, and some magic.
The most freaking awesome about this are archangels if they have one more extra turn - first time heal, second time strike. Never got beaten until phoenixes in later versions showed up. Dragons are just obsolete once you donīt have cheated for heavy fire magic and armageddon spell.

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markmasters
markmasters


Famous Hero
Dragon of justice
posted October 04, 2013 01:27 PM

The computer is sneaky, i had 10 pikeman on my toen and he attacked it with a weak hero and 5 goblins all split up in groups of 1. he used lightning bolt and won. when i reloaded and split up my pikeman he didnt attack at all

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted October 04, 2013 01:36 PM

markmasters said:
The computer is sneaky, i had 10 pikeman on my toen and he attacked it with a weak hero and 5 goblins all split up in groups of 1. he used lightning bolt and won. when i reloaded and split up my pikeman he didnt attack at all


LOL. Nice

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Storm-Giant
Storm-Giant


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
posted October 04, 2013 02:45 PM

markmasters said:
The computer is sneaky, i had 10 pikeman on my toen and he attacked it with a weak hero and 5 goblins all split up in groups of 1. he used lightning bolt and won. when i reloaded and split up my pikeman he didnt attack at all

Sneaky indeed

Splitting your defending armies is vital for ensuring a few extra turns for the towers - and therefore dealing higher losses to the enemy
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CrazyIvan
CrazyIvan

Tavern Dweller
posted October 04, 2013 03:42 PM

LOL markmasters

Something else I noticed is that it almost looks like the AI chooses whenever his extra attack or lucky attack will occur. It almost feels planned. Of course I noticed that way back in time but I just recently started playing again. So, probably old news...

Now this is a little off topic, but does anyone know how to "see" your ally's resources, or a way to determine what they have?
For instance; If I give it 50 wood and it gives me back 20, does that mean he kept the same amount? Like giving me back half of what he has?

I tried looking for that on the net but either I don't enter the right query or there's just no info on that...

Oh, wait. Was that in Heroes 4 that you could ask for info on his resources?

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