|
| Thread: Inferno Guide-Rise of The Devil |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
posted June 17, 2008 12:03 AM |
|
|
By week 5-6, then it's late game right.
Won't you gate your spawns even againts sylvan and dungeon, with swift gating, you spend 3 initiative, without it you spend 5, that is a very big difference. Sylvan dmg is not a big deal (except dragons and archers), calling more reinforce with some of your units beside spawns is ok, however againts dungeon magic type, only spawn that is safe to gate, and that 2 initiative difference is big, big enough to determine your victory.
Swift gating help you more againts faster faction, it shine brighter than againts slow faction, in fact, it was created to deal againts faster faction, not againts the slower one. The way you play inferno is not so infernal.
By saying hero game can't be applied to might faction, aren't you contradict yourself? I'm confused. Using magic a lot is hero game, and it can apply to any might faction except barbarians. And i've tried it myself, inferno that can have adv dark magic before lv 6 can creep very very fast in rich map, hero game can be applied to might faction. The difference here is sorcery, might faction rarely use sorcery.
If i don't have good high lv dark magic, i will avoid taking down 60 arcane archers unless they guard very good arties, or key structure (especially if it's a mine), but 60 arcane archers never guard a key mine (mercury, ore, wood, and sulfur).
|
|
samiekl
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 17, 2008 12:20 AM |
|
|
Quote:
By week 5-6, then it's late game right.
Won't you gate your spawns even againts sylvan and dungeon, with swift gating, you spend 3 initiative, without it you spend 5, that is a very big difference. Sylvan dmg is not a big deal (except dragons and archers), calling more reinforce with some of your units beside spawns is ok, however againts dungeon magic type, only spawn that is safe to gate, and that 2 initiative difference is big, big enough to determine your victory.
So you have one unit from 7. Good. the game is decided before the spwans get to act. keep in mind that i didn't say that swift mind is not good. i said it's especially good in creeping.
Quote:
By saying hero game can't be applied to might faction, aren't you contradict yourself? I'm confused. Using magic a lot is hero game, and it can apply to any might faction except barbarians. And i've tried it myself, inferno that can have adv dark magic before lv 6 can creep very very fast in rich map, hero game can be applied to might faction. The difference here is sorcery, might faction rarely use sorcery.
No, hero games is when the hero is the key element. As dungeon hero is, or necro, or academy. Don't tell me you use the hero's turn to do direct attack... Casting mass slow, mass confusion, mass haste, frenzy to avoid you units being attacked is not hero game, it's just tactics.
Quote:
I will avoid taking down 60 arcane archers unless they guard very good arties, or key structure (especially if it's a mine), but 60 arcane archers never guard a key mine (mercury, ore, wood, and sulfur).
Sure they do. If you check the replays i posted above, you'll see some numbers. The other 2 mines were guarded by the same numbers of arcanes and master hunters. How do you take them down without dark/warmachines? you fail to do that, you loose. so?
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 17, 2008 12:38 AM |
|
|
Quote:
So you have one unit from 7. Good. the game is decided before the spwans get to act. keep in mind that i didn't say that swift mind is not good. i said it's especially good in creeping.
Err, swift mind or swift gating? I take it as swift gating.
If the game is decided before it, then you have an unfair fight, meaning a significant difference, i.e: difference in hero stat, your enemy has ring of speed and you don't have it, your enemy have far greater number etc. And this happens mostly in 1v1 maps. I assume you often play 1v1 map? If yes, no wonder.
If it is swift mind, it only work after your hero is proficient with magic.
Quote:
No, hero games is when the hero is the key element. As dungeon hero is, or necro, or academy. Don't tell me you use the hero's turn to do direct attack... Casting mass slow, mass confusion, mass haste, frenzy to avoid you units being attacked is not hero game, it's just tactics.
Then it's hero game, though it's not to the extent like dungeon.
By using dark spells, it means that you try to manipulate the battlefield to your favor, now tell me, how big is the difference of the result if you are not using dark magic compared to using it, it's a very big difference, so the hero has important role, even if it's dark caster, if it's not then this game won't be titled as heroes of might and magic. Using direct attack = no hero game, and you know that it is insanity.
Quote:
Sure they do. If you check the replays i posted above, you'll see some numbers. The other 2 mines were guarded by the same numbers of arcanes and master hunters. How do you take them down without dark/warmachines? you fail to do that, you loose. so?
Yes, but it's not like that most maps's key mines guarded by arcane archer right. I speak about a strategy that can be applied in general, not in some rare case like this. However in this case, i agree with you that your choice to pick dark or war machine is right.
There are another way, though i'm not sure that this way can complete the same task, using mistress and hellfire (can't be applied in heroic)
Since i can't download it now, would you mind to tell me the map and what mines that are guarded by the archers?
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted June 17, 2008 12:43 AM |
|
|
How can you call it a hero game if most of the job is done by the army..? A demonlord can't take the game in his shoulders.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
WarLore
Famous Hero
servant of urgash
|
|
posted June 17, 2008 11:56 AM |
|
|
of course most job is done by army.When i play with inferno i do most job by army,cuz some odd reason my computer dont give me often consume corpse with grok,i have to leave gating.I only use hero for mark of damned and casting because i choose dark route often if i get that skill -.-
@chaosdragon you surely know how to play with inferno and you are faster than me,and people likes you more than me.Finish this tread,i keep commenting
____________
A Nightmare from below.A hero from Within
|
|
samiekl
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 17, 2008 12:04 PM |
|
Edited by samiekl at 12:10, 17 Jun 2008.
|
Yes, i wanted to say swift gating, sorry. About Sylvan vs Inferno match-up you obviously underestimate (much) the power of sylvan. If you gate, you loose, if you don't gate, you might win. It's an ATB fight. The game will be decided before the spawns get to act. After dogs' and horses' you'll have a pretty good idea how the game will come out. the slightest +init will be decisive. The map was Let's fight and i'm using because it;s the hardest map i know in matter of creeping. All mines are guarded by horde of level3. I had maulers on 1 mine (no problem as i showed in the replay), ghosts on another (no problem either after some level-ups), and arcanes and master hunters on the other 2. To be able to handle any map, i've chosen to fight the hardest one. Maybe i'm mistaking, but that's how i see it.
No, you can't play hero game with inferno because not the hero will win your games, as in dungeon's case.
Btw, for inferno it's very important that every time the dogs and horses hit they clear stack.
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 17, 2008 01:21 PM |
|
|
In an equal fight, it's almost imposible for any inferno creature to clear any sylvan stack in single blow, even if it's lucky attack, ofc, if you hit the lower tier, it will be cleared, but there are some exception as wind dancer.
Now, as the inferno, in equal fight, it's almost imposible for any sylvan creature to clear a stack in single blow if it's not in avenger list and it's lucky attack, still, sylvan have more advantage now (In ToTE), they got insane dragons, arcane archer, and inferno horse would surely lose againts sylvan horse.
But if there are some obstacles at your favor (blocking sylvan), sometimes gating is very useful, ofc with swift gating, the initiative difference really determine the death of that gating creatures.
I knew well that sylvan is the strongest in late. But if it's equal fight, it doesn't end that fast, though i admit that inferno creature will be the one to fall first. Compared to sylvan, inferno creatures overall strength is indeed mediocre.
Well, for me as long as the hero offer much help to the creatures, i call it a hero game too, it seems that my definition is different with you guys, i guess this is just a definition misunderstanding.
It seems that i lost that map after i formatted my comp last week.
Quote:
@chaosdragon you surely know how to play with inferno and you are faster than me,and people likes you more than me.Finish this tread,i keep commenting
No no, it will be a disgrace to you. You're the one that start it. I don't mind if it take long to finish.
|
|
samiekl
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 17, 2008 01:33 PM |
|
Edited by samiekl at 13:35, 17 Jun 2008.
|
|
No, don't get me wrong, Inferno has its fair chances vs fast factions. And sure they can clear stack vs sylvan, but here we come to the point where loosing creatures matters. A lot. When you lose a few dogs here, a few there, you won't have the power to clear stacks. Keep in mind that inferno hero gets mostly attack at level-ups. So believe be, you can clear a stack of dragons with full population of horses. Also, a full population of dogs can take care of lower level sylvan creatures (levels 1-4). It's important to clear stacks because every time inferno is hit, it hurts. Bad. So avoid being hit by hitting hard. If your horses and dogs don't clear stacks is bad because they will rarely live to see turn 2 of the fight unless you do that. And while sylvan has resurrection, you don't. So basically a fight is determined in the first 3 actions: whether horses can hit dragons before they are hit, dogs doing some nice damage before they are hit, and devils hitting hard the unicorns before they are hit. If you are able to do that, you won, otherwise... you're going down.
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 17, 2008 01:51 PM |
|
|
Quote:
No, don't get me wrong, Inferno has its fair chances vs fast factions. And sure they can clear stack vs sylvan, but here we come to the point where loosing creatures matters. A lot. When you lose a few dogs here, a few there, you won't have the power to clear stacks. Keep in mind that inferno hero gets mostly attack at level-ups. So believe be, you can clear a stack of dragons with full population of horses. Also, a full population of dogs can take care of lower level sylvan creatures (levels 1-4). It's important to clear stacks because every time inferno is hit, it hurts. Bad. So avoid being hit by hitting hard. If your horses and dogs don't clear stacks is bad because they will rarely live to see turn 2 of the fight unless you do that. And while sylvan has resurrection, you don't. So basically a fight is determined in the first 3 actions: whether horses can hit dragons before they are hit, dogs doing some nice damage before they are hit, and devils hitting hard the unicorns before they are hit. If you are able to do that, you won, otherwise... you're going down.
By losing a few is ok, i mean that it's just once or twice, not gradually losing it.
Yeah, horse and dog are the ones that will be focused, indeed, they rarely live to see the dawn of turn 2.
I agree about dragons and unicorns.
Horse is able to act in turn 1, i doubt the dog. Still, if your horse can clear a dragon in single blow, is that all the dragons that he can muster, i.e: i rarely see 30 horse can clear 10 dragons in single blow, if it's not lucky atk, unless you have an overgrown atk via arties, and your enemy defence can't keep up with it. Though according the math, it should be possible.
I have a question, i forgot to ask this, according to some people, expert attack increase 20% dmg instead of 15%.
|
|
samiekl
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 17, 2008 02:07 PM |
|
Edited by samiekl at 14:18, 17 Jun 2008.
|
|
Dogs can act in turn 1, and their mission usually is clear stack of pixies and dancers and do some additional damage. But that's position dependent. So, clear a stack of level 1/2 and additional damage should be ok. 30 horses vs 10 dragons, it's not really as it is, you should have more horses by the time he has 10 dragons.
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 17, 2008 02:44 PM |
|
|
That was just a normal number.
Even if it is more, i assume both player of sylvan and inferno are equal in term of creeping and another skills, normally it will be around 40-44 if he has 10 dragons. 40 horses can only kill about 2 dragons without luck, 10 dragons can only kill 9 horse, demon lord is indeed has an overgrown attack, but sylvan ranger also has overgrown defence. So i ignore primary stat.
If its equal match, horse still alive untill turn 3.
In every normal and equal fight, the final fight of main hero from any faction vs another main hero from any faction is a battle of attrition, it will be long, and it take a minimum of 6 turns to finish. Believe me in this thing. Ofc i ignore artifacts too. Still if both heroes have the same and identical arties it will be the same, arties are ignored, so does the primary stat, it's still the same if both heroes have arties that counter each other, means if he has ring of speed, you have staff of netherworld, if he has an arties that increase his def by 5, you have an arties that increase your atk by 5.
Those 40 horse can kill the dragon in single blow if it's a map with a secondary town. For it will be about 65-70 horse againts 10 dragons.
I admit, i tend to ignore custom maps, because some of it is too easy, and destroy the balance of the game.
In normal maps, the final battle always takes long, because if it's not, gating is useless, and if you play a map that render gating useless, then that map destroy the balance of the game, i.e: your horse rarely survive turn 2.
|
|
kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
|
|
posted June 17, 2008 03:04 PM |
|
|
Interesting, yet I'm still sceptical
The war machine path does not allow you to engage archers split in 4 stacks with demons only. Indeed if split in 7 stacks of 1, there is a very high chance that your fodder dies before balista is able to shoot down the archers, the morale may trigger too. Since I'm not truely an expert in forcing AI to concentrate it's forces in few stacks for me it's a dangerous gamble.
The dark path in my understanding needs some luck:
first you need confusion in your guild,
second you need dark to show up in the first few lvls,
third you need master of mind perk to show up
fourth you need some luck with stats and get a few points in sp/kw (2 sp won't cut it)
fifth a decent atack spell
That makes alot of stuff to achieve in just one week ...
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 17, 2008 03:13 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Interesting, yet I'm still sceptical
No, you're not skeptical, you tell the truth, you're embracing the fact.
Quote:
The dark path in my understanding needs some luck:
first you need confusion in your guild,
second you need dark to show up in the first few lvls,
third you need master of mind perk to show up
fourth you need some luck with stats and get a few points in sp/kw (2 sp won't cut it)
fifth a decent atack spell
Don't forget, the dark path make you abandon creatures, because your resources is spent for building mage guilds.
Even in hard, if you play in unfamiliar maps, how can you know that you'll have enough resources to compensate for your unit buildings from the result of creeping with dark path, i doubt it, unless you are very familiar with the maps. Me and my friends tend to random our maps and our heroes, that's our rules, so scouting is essential, if the map is not rich enough, dark path is suicide, especially in heroic.
Things like dark route is not a gerenal case, it's a special case.
Quote:
That makes alot of stuff to achieve in just one week ...
Yup, unless you're very familiar with the map.
|
|
kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
|
|
posted June 19, 2008 04:25 PM |
|
|
Tried rushing for dark the other day, didn't go too well I must say.
Here is how it went:
Starting town had just a tavern built. I recruited all heroes from tavern on day one built imps and went to take wood and ore, day 3 I got mage guild but I continued creeping without magic since map didn't require it. On day 5 I had town hall, mage guild lvl1, familiar crucible, kennels. By that time I was lvl 6 (map wasn't particularly rich near my base) and got offered dark which I took. At lvl 8 I had it at advanced but no master of mind offered. Wasting a day and a half of movement I got to the guild to reap the benefits of building it all the way to lvl4 and my reward was ... vulnerability, ice bolt, suffering and blindness ... all that with a spellpower of 2 ofcourse 
this really put me into it since I couldn't get succubi nor nightmares before end of week 2, and having sacrificed a few days movement just to get the spells I got behind in creeping.
This experience leads me to the conclusion that rushing guild + dark is really a gamble. It could work but only on some very specific maps. For me, frenzy or blind are simply not worth a stack of seducers.
|
|
samiekl
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 19, 2008 08:17 PM |
|
|
|
Hmmm, you're doing something wrong dude. Really. You must be building your town aiming for dogs, nightmares/seducers (depending on your style) and mage guild level 3. Preferably in that order. You must try to get fast attack-tactics, expert dark-master of mind and racial+perks. Sure you can have tough luck, but that's the game. You should take (all) mines as fast as possible, or at least that's what i'm doing, i creep everything as fast as i can.
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 20, 2008 03:38 AM |
|
|
It depends on the map. It is impossible in poor map, or normal map.
It can be done only in custom maps (usually in 1v1 custom maps), like BoF or let's fight, etc.
Yup, if you want dark route, you should take all the mine asap.
Dark route require:
1. You need 2 towns to increase your chance for a good lv 4 or lv 5 dark spell to kill lots of tier 7. It is impossible in 1 town map, unless you like to gamble.
2. To get dark magic asap, you need a map that allow you to lv up at least to lv 10 or 12 before all creeps in your teritory extinct.
3. The Map must be rich enough to ensure you can build at least imps, demons, hounds, succubi after you spent all your resources for mage guild lv 3 or 4
|
|
WarLore
Famous Hero
servant of urgash
|
|
posted June 20, 2008 10:24 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Hmmm, you're doing something wrong dude. Really. You must be building your town aiming for dogs, nightmares/seducers (depending on your style) and mage guild level 3. Preferably in that order. You must try to get fast attack-tactics, expert dark-master of mind and racial+perks. Sure you can have tough luck, but that's the game. You should take (all) mines as fast as possible, or at least that's what i'm doing, i creep everything as fast as i can.
yep,i usually buy in heroic pit fiends before hell charges,because they would only die,no matter how good you play,you lose them in med lvl battles(druids,djinns etc)and pit fiends fireball helps in your way.
____________
A Nightmare from below.A hero from Within
|
|
samiekl
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 20, 2008 01:19 PM |
|
|
Quote:
It depends on the map. It is impossible in poor map, or normal map.
It can be done only in custom maps (usually in 1v1 custom maps), like BoF or let's fight, etc.
That's not true. You adapt yourself to the situation. Saying that this or that works in 100% of cases is non-sense.
Quote:
Dark route require:
1. You need 2 towns to increase your chance for a good lv 4 or lv 5 dark spell to kill lots of tier 7. It is impossible in 1 town map, unless you like to gamble.
I like to gamble. And make full use of what i'm given. It's better than having triple flaming ballista every game.
|
|
ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 20, 2008 04:04 PM |
|
|
Quote:
That's not true. You adapt yourself to the situation. Saying that this or that works in 100% of cases is non-sense.
To be honest, i get what you means. Indeed everything is not certain.
However, i must say the general way, since most player probably like certainty.
Quote:
I like to gamble. And make full use of what i'm given. It's better than having triple flaming ballista every game.
You don't need triple flaming balista. I never like it, too long to finish, just triple balista or just a balista is enough. Yup, it might lose its potential in late game without flaming arrows, but there is always another skills/perks that can easily compensate for this weakness.
Double shot balista is enough, i'd say more than enough. I never aim for expert war machine, adv and balista is enough.
Demon lord racial skill is very useful, equal to war machine and dark magic. But using it require some skills, unlike some other factions, like fortress rune, dungeon empower+elemental vision, orc rage, etc.
Hellfire is useful for melee creep and mark of damned for ranged. hellfire is indeed rely on chance, however if you split cerberi or imps untill your stack slot is full (depends on the creep speed and initiative), you can maximize its potential, the problem is your mana, not only that, with this, you have another advantage, you have plenty free retaliation stealer (again,depends on the creep speed and initiative). Ranged creeps in ToTE are usually dumb if blocked by a gated creature while your balista or hero attack + excrutiating strike do the works, high tier ranged creeps (tier 4-6) are very vulnerable to excrutiating strike, mark of damned can be wonderful here, hero attack is not always useless, at least for inferno, orc and sylvan.
In general, basically you need only adv gating, mark of damned, and hellfire. I've test this in most normal maps in heroic. Things like a lot of lv 7 is exception, however dark magic is a must skill for inferno.
Dark magic and war machine is not the only option. Attack, defense, luck, destructive and logistic are also very useful (depends on your main hero).
|
|
samiekl
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted June 20, 2008 04:27 PM |
|
|
Quote:
However, i must say the general way, since most player probably like certainty.
The most general way it's simple: racial, dark, attack, enlightenment. And learn to creep.
Quote:
You don't need triple flaming balista. I never like it, too long to finish, just triple balista or just a balista is enough. Yup, it might lose its potential in late game without flaming arrows, but there is always another skills/perks that can easily compensate for this weakness.
Whatever. You get my point.
Quote:
Demon lord racial skill is very useful, equal to war machine and dark magic. But using it require some skills, unlike some other factions, like fortress rune, dungeon empower+elemental vision, orc rage, etc.Hellfire is useful for melee creep and mark of damned for ranged. hellfire is indeed rely on chance, however if you split cerberi or imps untill your stack slot is full (depends on the creep speed and initiative), you can maximize its potential, the problem is your mana, not only that, with this, you have another advantage, you have plenty free retaliation stealer (again,depends on the creep speed and initiative).
As i said, learn to creep. And let people develop their way of doing that.
Quote:
Dark magic and war machine is not the only option. Attack, defense, luck, destructive and logistic are also very useful (depends on your main hero).
Viable options are many. But the core should always be the same: dark, attack, enlightenment. You have 2 slots left. I usually fill them with logistics/luck/light.
|
| |
|
|
